Physical attraction and dating

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I personally as well as other women would have more respect if you would just want to be friends instead of dragging the relationship on.
How would you react if you were friends with a guy who you never properly considered dating but he was straightforward and set a friendship boundary by stating that he would like to remain good friends but nothing more. Strange?

Funnily enough, my ex-girlfriend, before we dated told me to guard my heart as she would have to reject me if I started to like her. She ended up falling for me and we dated but it didn’t work out.

I’ll check out the books. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
You could still be surprised how far your sense of beauty deviates from that of your friends or even most people for that matter.

What’s ultimately important is whether she’s beautiful to you, not to other people.

If you really thought your girlfriend and future wife had to be someone who were attractive to others, yes, that’d be shallow — well, either in the sense of vanity or perhaps some problems with self-esteem and maturity. But that’s not the same as simply being after beauty.

Anyway, a lot in how you see a woman depends on how you look. If you have warm feelings for someone, whatever be their nature, or feelings of respect, you’re going to look differently — differently than you would look at, say, a line-up of static portrait shots of total strangers. Part of it is that you would spend more time looking and be more resistant to first impressions. You would be more inclined to love the imperfections (yes, that happens too).

Don’t force yourself to try a relationship with someone you don’t want to be in a relationship it; that could end in a world of hurt.

Don’t force yourself to give girls ‘honest chances’ at dating. It would be sexist to accuse them of something like being unable to understand the concept of a fighting chance etc.; actually, I think many of them would understand it better than a modern man and have more class in dealing with it, but you just don’t want to trifle with a girl’s feelings.

For the record, if you try it as friends — for example in order to avoid hurting her feelings — chances are you’re going to get friend-zoned. Contrary to what some people believe, it’s not impossible to get out of there (though it may take some cognitive reframing), but it’s tricky. Personally, I want someone who will be into me from the get go (and vice versa), at least in some degree, and with no bar to some caution.

On the other hand, even though we are responsible for the feelings we awaken in others (quoting a Servant of God cardinal and menthor of JP2’s here), you can’t be wholly responsible for the freaking out of an unstable mind that you could not have foreseen. Perhaps google ‘adequate causation’ as lawyers call it, maybe that will help.

Now as regards your fears etc., Irishmom is right. Just do it. You don’t even have to do it ‘right’ or without blundering, what is important is that you actually do it. Real men can’t be afraid of shame — including the kind of shame that they only feel themselves, as it stings their own pride (and masculine ago), where nobody else even knows (e.g. because the woman was a stranger and there were no common friends).

Actually, some quite smashing women are quite lonely when every man ends up thinking they must already have someone. Alternatively, they end up with whomever thinks he has nothing to lose — who can be anybody from a very plain guy to a bluebird.

Besides, you can’t get confidence else than by training.

Training includes a metric heckton of losing, and getting better generally starts with realizing how poor you are and accepting it (else you can’t grow). Just ask any sportsman, martial artist or successful computer gamer.

Remember that courage lies not in being immune to fear (where’s courage in that?), not even in having a spirit unmoved by it (as some old philosophers could claim), but in actually doing things anyway. Hence, it’s possible for a coward to be a courageous man. Could also be possible for a bold man to be a coward (the moment his usual overconfidence stops shielding him from realizing what he’s up to (or against)).

Just walk up to them. And talk.

But be prepared to talk — know how to talk to them, be prepared to both listen and engage, to fill the silence when it does need to be filled, to actually offer the woman something more interesting than just you awaiting your prize for the dare of walking up to her. It’s the beginning of the way only. (In other words, it helps if you’re a good conversationalist, but content is still king, as a professional marketer might want to say, and it helps best if you actually have something to talk about. I sometimes don’t, an that’s where things end badly. As long as I have subjects to really, genuinely talk about things never are hopeless.)

Finally, don’t really worry about competing with other guys. In business, there’s the concept of a red ocean vs blue ocean:
  • Red competes in existing space. Blue creates new space (uncontested new space).
  • Red beats the competition (or not). Blue makes the competition irrelevant.
  • Red operates off of existing demand. Blue creates new demand. (Offers something new, a new formula, redefines the thinking etc.)
  • Red makes the value vs cost. Blue breaks it. (This is a bit of an exaggerated claim, but it’s about finding the sweet spot where your ideal client’s needs/wants and your offer align the best. You look for those sweet spots with the assitance of ideal client modelling. It’s generally good to know who you’re selling and know the folks you’re selling to.)
You gotta win some hearts and minds, you can’t just walk in and force a girl by yours sheer whatever. Or, in some cases you can, but it’s debatable whether those girls are your ideal client. I mean, your ideal mate.

It also helps to know how to kiss. 😉
 
Well that was intense. How you drew upon all of those different ideas in a single post (unless copy-paste) I don’t know, but you sound like a complex person. In a good way.

Could very well be a self esteem issue like you said. I surely hope not.

RE: just walking up and talking, one of my personal hindrances is the thought of wasting my time whether that be in that moment or even after getting to know the person well. A friend of mine also struggled with the idea of God’s plan vs. going out there and getting it (making use of our free will). Perhaps moderation is key, but I might leave that for discussion on a different thread.
 
Actually I do have a question that’s not entirely off topic (but correct me if I’m wrong to do so and I’ll start another thread).

Can guys and girls really just be friends/best friends?
Hmm… I would say generally not, because very often one or the other person becomes attracted to the other, which is how we are made–and why married people don’t date. 😉

Take a look at Catholic writer Anthony Buono’s article “Do opposite-sex friendships work in dating?” catholicnewsagency.com/column/do-opposite-sex-friendships-work-in-dating-513/
 
Well that was intense. How you drew upon all of those different ideas in a single post (unless copy-paste) I don’t know, but you sound like a complex person. In a good way.

Could very well be a self esteem issue like you said. I surely hope not.

RE: just walking up and talking, one of my personal hindrances is the thought of wasting my time whether that be in that moment or even after getting to know the person well. A friend of mine also struggled with the idea of God’s plan vs. going out there and getting it (making use of our free will). Perhaps moderation is key, but I might leave that for discussion on a different thread.
If you think getting out and making random friends ( of any level) is a waste of time…
there’s your answer.

Anything worth having is worth investing time and effort.
People are never a waste of time.
 
Well that was intense. How you drew upon all of those different ideas in a single post (unless copy-paste) I don’t know, but you sound like a complex person. In a good way.
Thank you. I’ve had a couple of different jobs and hobbies in my life, so I can sometimes look at things from a couple of different angles. Also tend to remember a lot of trivia (though I can’t remember where I put my keys or my ID to save my life, most of the time).
Could very well be a self esteem issue like you said. I surely hope not.
That wouldn’t be the end of the world, either!
RE: just walking up and talking, one of my personal hindrances is the thought of wasting my time whether that be in that moment or even after getting to know the person well. A friend of mine also struggled with the idea of God’s plan vs. going out there and getting it (making use of our free will). Perhaps moderation is key, but I might leave that for discussion on a different thread.
I get your point, but you don’t really have a completely limited attention span for friends and friendships. Alternatively, try to think of it as dating (formally or not) only those girls that you wouldn’t mind keeping as friends only. If a girl isn’t worth the effort of friendship*, she isn’t worth the effort of dating, let alone courtship/engagement and dating.

Say, for a moment imagine she’s married or a non-habit nun or lay celibatary (or can’t be married as a result of a permanent psychic condition that falls under can. 1095.3). You obviously wouldn’t be making romantic advances on her. But would you care to just talk and spend time together (in a prudent way in the circumstances)? If not, then well, it looks like it’s not a person you’d care to spend time talking to. And that sounds very much like someone you wouldn’t want to be married to.

Not even because there’s something wrong with her, or with you, but because of the restricted compatibility (absolute incompatibility probably doesn’t exist).

(* I mean in a cursory sense. In a deeper sense nobody is unworthy of such effort.)

I have a suggestion, just don’t make too much of it and don’t force it: try to become a bit more consciously aware of your real priorities, as well as the things you really like or not, want or not, need or not etc. Your desires and your reactions (emotions, physiology etc.) are not normally directly controllable by your will, but they are certainly not immune to being affected by your conscious choices and realizations. A firm commitment to your real priorities probably will cause changes in how you react to the various things you perceive. Over time, that is. It won’t happen overnight.

For example a long-term habit of not acting on certain attractions could probably lead to no longer really feeling them or no longer needing to think twice (or think at all) about rejecting them. To a lesser extent but it can even work the other way round, i.e. make you a bit more appreciative of some things which you consciously appreciate or approve of but wouldn’t normally feel attracted to.

Besides, you can feel attraction to a girl on a couple of different levels, and the kind of attraction that grips yours throat or squeezes tears out of your eyes (rare but possible for a grown man to be moved by a woman’s goodness of character with that kind of physical manifestation) is not somehow less real than you-know-what is. And between the two, I’d go with the former, though I’m a sucker for pretty.
 
The physical attraction I seek in a girl is definitely not unrealistic but I worry that I’m focusing too much on the physical.

What do you think? Do I sound like a shallow fool?
IMO, your priority should be finding a young woman who is virtuous. And if you find one that is, but you’re basically concerned that she won’t be sexually pleasing enough, then yes, you’re looking at it from the wrong perspective.

In fact, I would pursue the sexual aspect. Are you ultimately just looking for someone who will be pleasing sexually, because perhaps you want to make sure that they can satisfy you for the rest of your life? Is that at the heart of this? Is there a fear that it won’t last for 60 years unless you think she’s exactly, precisely, perfectly, and without doubt the most wonderful epitome of beauty that would settle for you?

I also think there’s all kinds of pressures to find a person who’s absolutely perfect in every conceivable way, so that we can have a “storybook story” romance. Meh. Focus on loving God, and on loving your future spouse with His love, and not so much on storybooks and perfections. This isn’t about appearances, but it’s about His grace, and you want someone who’s open to His grace.
 
IMO, your priority should be finding a young woman who is virtuous. And if you find one that is, but you’re basically concerned that she won’t be sexually pleasing enough, then yes, you’re looking at it from the wrong perspective.

In fact, I would pursue the sexual aspect. Are you ultimately just looking for someone who will be pleasing sexually, because perhaps you want to make sure that they can satisfy you for the rest of your life? Is that at the heart of this? Is there a fear that it won’t last for 60 years unless you think she’s exactly, precisely, perfectly, and without doubt the most wonderful epitome of beauty that would settle for you?

I also think there’s all kinds of pressures to find a person who’s absolutely perfect in every conceivable way, so that we can have a “storybook story” romance. Meh. Focus on loving God, and on loving your future spouse with His love, and not so much on storybooks and perfections. This isn’t about appearances, but it’s about His grace, and you want someone who’s open to His grace.
…and that you think is cute.

It’s doing a woman no favors to marry her in spite of her looks.

And I say that as a former ugly duckling myself. My husband, bless his heart, thinks I’m cute, and that means a lot to me. I would be offended if he were trying to love me in spite of my exterior.
 
It’s doing a woman no favors to marry her in spite of her looks.
Usually, yeah. Though to some extent we must all live with the knowledge that we’re loved despite a bunch of things, not only for them.
 
…and that you think is cute.

It’s doing a woman no favors to marry her in spite of her looks.

And I say that as a former ugly duckling myself. My husband, bless his heart, thinks I’m cute, and that means a lot to me. I would be offended if he were trying to love me in spite of my exterior.
At first reading, I strongly disagreed with this. This comment specifically prompted contemplation of a couple very, personally vexing flaws. I treat “eligible” women I find less physically attractive with less charity than those I find more physically attractive. My thoughts are even less charitable. Furthermore, unfortunately, my “standards” of physical attractiveness are just plain ridiculous. Too much previous immersion in corruptive entertainment media that promotes very skewed standards for what is physically attractive. However, then I realized you are correct. The problem is not figuring out how to love “in spite of her looks”, but probably a maturation characterized by a change in priorities; “fixing” my physical attraction; and an increase in charity. My physical attractions really annoy me. I wish there were a couple adjustment screws in my head that allowed me to turn physical attraction off and charity up to max. I guess I should be patient with myself. By the grace of God, I am confident I will get this stuff corrected within the next 10,000 years.
 
Physical attraction, and attraction generally, are very important for a successful relationship.

The goal is finding a spouse, and marriage is about spending your life together. Your desire for one another helps you to be motivated to resolve problems, and you will have problems. Your attraction is what makes you want to spend time with each other, where you bond together. Your attraction is something God put there so that you would want to make babies, so that you will make union with one another. Your attraction makes it easier to give hugs and kisses that show your partner you love them. Think about the burden it would be if you had to force yourself to continue to express love when you were not attracted to each other. The deep attraction to the other, including their physicality and spirituality, is what keeps you working on your marriage into old age, because it does not go away.

If you have zero attraction to someone, it is foolish to date them. Yes, your attraction can grow, but there has to be something to start with. If it does grow out of nothing, you can start dating when that happens. As said before, you do no favors by dating when you’re not attracted (i.e. not actually interested in the whole person).

Dismiss the notion of objective attractiveness. Everyone is attractive to someone, and it doesn’t matter if it’s one person who likes you or a thousand. Only one person is the one you care about: your spouse.

God made our bodies in his image. God became a man on Earth. He was crucified and suffered physical pain. The Apostle’s Creed recites the resurrection of the body. At Mass, we have times to kneel and to stand or sing. The Eucharist is the Body of Christ, as is the Church. As Catholics, we believe that faith is not separate from our bodies, but that the body is part of our expression of faith. Look at how many times the Bible speaks of someone’s physical beauty in describing them. Look how descriptive the Song of Songs is, even erotic you might say.

I am blessed to have found a beautiful lady for myself, who I will be marrying in a few months. She is the most beautiful woman there is, inside and out.
 
Dismiss the notion of objective attractiveness. Everyone is attractive to someone, and it doesn’t matter if it’s one person who likes you or a thousand. Only one person is the one you care about: your spouse.

God made our bodies in his image. God became a man on Earth. He was crucified and suffered physical pain. The Apostle’s Creed recites the resurrection of the body. At Mass, we have times to kneel and to stand or sing. The Eucharist is the Body of Christ, as is the Church. As Catholics, we believe that faith is not separate from our bodies, but that the body is part of our expression of faith. Look at how many times the Bible speaks of someone’s physical beauty in describing them. Look how descriptive the Song of Songs is, even erotic you might say.
Hmmm I like this a lot. It’s very well written and you’ve added some really insightful points. Thank you.

I think it’s very profound to dismiss the notion of objective attractiveness. And I think you’re right here.
I am blessed to have found a beautiful lady for myself, who I will be marrying in a few months. She is the most beautiful woman there is, inside and out.
Congratulations and God bless your marriage!
 
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