Physical Relations between two people a sin?

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dkong_469

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So lets pose a hypothetical situation here:

Two people love each other and love God.

These two people, lets call them Jack and Jill, don’t get to see each other much. Either a long distance relationship, or restrictive parents, or lack of transport to each other, pick the problem.

Jack and Jill each believe that Jesus died for their sins, and believe in God with all their heart. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Since they believe this (I’m really bad at scripture numbers, so if someone knows where this is, that’d be GREAT), then they are guaranteed getting into heaven. Jesus (or God) said that the only way to the father is through Jesus, and whoever believes that Jesus died for our sins is allowed in Heaven. Now, we are each supposed to love Jesus enough to follow his rules, but this isn’t explicitly stated as a way to get into Heaven, rather something we should do as good, God-fearing people.

Jack and Jill have become much more physically together, BUT WON’T HAVE SEX, OF ANY FORM. They refrain from any higher temptations, and don’t do much at all by todays standards. (Okay, I know that we shouldn’t judge ourselves by society, but come-on, a little bit of realism for those of us who can’t recite the Bible would be nice)

Jack and Jill honestly believe that their physical actions (hugging, kissing, etc) are demonstrations of their love for each other.

So my question, is this relationship going to Hell, even though they love Jesus, believe He died for them, and refrained from much because He said so, or is that not enough that these two can’t express their love to each other like that, because it contains a physical component?

Again, these two also don’t see each other much (I’m thinking like 3 days a month, so maybe for a week or two at a time every few months for a really long distance relationship, lack of cars and needing friends/family to drive them and they can’t get that help often, whatever) so it’s not like the physical aspect of their relationship overshadows any other parts, such as communication and genuinely caring for and loving each other.

I’d love to hear what your views are. Sorry that this took so long to write, but I hope that you’ll take the time to respond now that you’ve already made it this far. ALL RESPONSES WELCOME!!!

Thanks everyone!

Peace
 
dkong_469 said:
Jack and Jill each believe that Jesus died for their sins, and believe in God with all their heart. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Since they believe this (I’m really bad at scripture numbers, so if someone knows where this is, that’d be GREAT), then they are guaranteed getting into heaven.
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Perhaps you have mistaken this for a protestant forum. Catholics do not believe this. As for the rest of the post, why not change the confusing hypothetical to a real question based on the facts of the situation so people can help you sort it out.

Betsy
 
I was hoping to leave this as general as possible so that as many people as possible would be able to benefit from reading it, and apply it to their own situation. Sorry if that makes things a little harder to reply to, but I actually changed a fairly large amount from personal experience so that it would work better here. 🙂
 
I don’t see how the amount of time they spend together has any bearing on the morality of their acts of physical affection. 🤷 The same rules would apply whether or not they see each other every day or once a month.

It’s hard to respond to your hypothetical situation without more details. They are engaging in “physical relations” but “won’t have sex of any form”? What does that mean, exactly?

Is it okay to hug your boyfriend/girlfriend? Sure. Is it okay to kiss them? Probably. Is it okay to engage in acts of petting? No. Is it okay to “make out”? Well, you’ll probably get a lot of different answers to that one, from “absolutely not” to “it depends upon the people” to “it’s not a big deal”. I would just say that, even if it’s not a sin, it’s not the best way to build up your relationship. There are much better ways to do that.

Remember, being a disciple of Jesus does not give us license to do whatever we want. We can’t just say, “I believe in Hinm, so I’m saved and I don’t have to worry about sin.” That’s a dangerous train of thought to follow.
 
Dear OP.

Hugs and kisses are not sinful. Touching and arousing genital areas are. If you do this to a woman you are not married to you do it for your own gratification and out of lust. Not because of love. If you truly love a woman, you respect her and guard her virginity as well as her purity/chastity. You are not her husband and she is not your wife.
One day you will have a wife and if its not Jill then this wife will be sad that you gave pieces of your self away to another woman before her. If it is Jill she will have lost a bit of respect for you because you did not take care of her and was a strong godly man.
I say this to you as a Catholic woman.
Virginity is not a virtue. Chastity is. Keep yourself chaste and stop playing with fire. if you truly love this woman you dont take risks because you cant control your sexual impulses.
Sex is for marriage… especially because of the vulnerabilty of the woman that is engaging in premarital sex… and yes… sex is not just intercourse…
Keep your clothes on and no one gets hurt.

If you want to spend 40 minutes listening to a pep-talk that changed my life then turn to this link

pureloveclub.com/seminars/index.php?id=5
and choose Public High School Talk.

It’ll teach you to be a real man of the kind that a Christian woman wants and deserves… even when she is not aware of it… even when she is weak…
Disciplin your self and practice the virtues needed if you want to one day ean the title as head of a household: that is self-sacrifice, responsibility, love and respect.

Peace.
 
Actually… The Bible says : “Believe and repent…” It also says “No lawbreakers will be allowed into the Kingdom”.

Jesus said: “Go and sin no more. Repent for the Kingdom is at hand”.

Don’t spit in Jesus face by saying: “I will sin and you will surely forgive me”.
 
Jack and Jill should attend RCIA and become Catholic. They will then grow in grace, and study to grow in wisdom, discern marriage and enter into the Sacrament if that is what God wills.
 
Jack and Jill have the same problems Jack and Jill had fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, and so forth. Human nature never changes. The question always was and remains “How far can we go with physical action before it becomes a serious sin?” Maybe a little venial sin is O.K., huh, huh? Holding hands, occasional hug (not a 15 minute squeeze play.), arm over shoulder when side by side, even a kiss similar to what you would give your sister is quite OK. Keep your clothes on and if things start to happen down there, yeah down there, it is time to back off. Yeah, I know, I am just an old fogey, but that doesn’t change the fact that I have been there and remember very well that tug to ever greater physical intimacies as a relationship develops. And yes, I had what would be called close female friends and at times we were separated for extended periods of time and hundreds of miles. It wasn’t fun, but love can survive those kinds of things. Real love, that is.🙂 🙂
 
dkong_469 said:
Now, we are each supposed to love Jesus enough to follow his rules, but this isn’t explicitly stated as a way to get into Heaven, rather something we should do as good, God-fearing people.

Peace
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Really…Did Matthew 25:31-46 fall out of your bible??
 
teachccd said:
Really…Did Matthew 25:31-46 fall out of your bible??
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Woah there, buddy… No need to get all pissy…

I already mentioned that I didn’t know my bible verses, so you could have said whatever that meant in a much nicer way…

After all, this is a Catholic site (from what I can tell), so you’d think that manners would be a bit better…

Hmmmm… Maybe there is a difference between practicing and preaching… Food for thought, I suppose…
 
dkong_469 said:
Woah there, buddy… No need to get all pissy…

I already mentioned that I didn’t know my bible verses, so you could have said whatever that meant in a much nicer way…

After all, this is a Catholic site (from what I can tell), so you’d think that manners would be a bit better…

Hmmmm… Maybe there is a difference between practicing and preaching… Food for thought, I suppose…
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My bad. 😊 I’m sorry for stating my post as such. You did seem to have a grasp on what you deemed as Catholic teachings so I just wanted to emphasize that we do not go to heaven by faith alone. That is Protestant theology and I wasn’t sure where you are coming from.

Sorry and I stand corrected. I hope that you forgive me and I will be more patient in future posts…God Bless…teachccd
 
teachccd said:
Really…Did Matthew 25:31-46 fall out of your bible??
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So I went online and found this for everyone reading this that doesn’t have a bible handy. The parts in bold were added as comments by me.

Matthew 25:31-46 (New International Version)

**The Sheep and the Goats **

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Okay, so far we’ve got that the good-doing people are going to heaven. Now, we need to look at the third variable problem. What if the good-doing people are just those that love Jesus and do good in his name? Thus, we see good-doers going to heaven, and those who don’t love Jesus don’t do good deeds, and because they don’t love Jesus they aren’t going to Heaven. That’s just one angle. There are countless other problems looking at this, and as is well known in various circles, “Correlation does not prove causation.” Let’s continue with the passage:

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Perhaps these are just the people who don’t love Him…42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ And they haven’t done any good deeds, perhaps demonstrating His knowledge that a moral society is one that embraces rather than marginalizes religion… Look at the secularism in America these days and the massive attempts by the Left and the media to remove ANY trace of religion… Don’t try to tell me that these aren’t related…
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Perhaps He is saying that only by being selfless can we show our love for the Lord… That way, by loving Him we would do good deeds, and by rejecting him we would find no need to act well upon others.

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." So they get to live in Hell.

That’s the end of the passage. So, now we know that MAYBE it is loving the Lord rather than blatant acts that is how we get into Heaven, and MAYBE we are expected to perform good acts because we love the Lord and by helping others we help Him.

Okay, now do you see how you could have helped a little more than you did? To me, this makes it seem as if Jack and Jill, as long as they have good intentions and pure hearts, can remain physically intimate and still enter into Heaven.

As a side note, shouldn’t your future spouse love you enough to forgive you for anything in your past that you may have done? To me, love not only means unconditional trust, but also faith that they were acting with the best of intentions and the ability to forgive them no matter what.

DK
 
d_kong:

Lutherans call your idea of Jesus “easy grace.” You think that Christianity is easy and free, Just believe in Jesus and you’ve got it made,

If Jack and Jill were at least being “legalistic” they would know that the Bible (new and old testaments) prohibit fornication (sexual relations of all kinds) before marriage and prohibit adultery in marriage. Jesus said that a man who even LOOKS at a woman with lust commits adultery.

**The “very” problem in your question is that it focuses on what Jack and Jill want, instead of what Jesus wants, that is, what the Bible commands. **

Jesus wants obedience, without exceptions, without rationalization, and without excuses.

“Jack and Jill” are lost if Jesus is not first in their lives. Why are they not willing to get married, to enter that life-long covenant of love, if they “love” Jesus?

Physical relations between two people are NOT generally a sin, if the two are duly married and if they have a life in Jesus Christ.

Anything else, and they are on the slippery slope to Hell.
 
I never said that they didn’t do anything that shows that they love the Lord, just that some things they may compromise on. I don’t think that Jesus realistically expected us to follow everything that he did perfectly. He’s God and had a very hard time resisting temptation… How could someone mortal hope to even come close??

Maybe I’m just looking at religion a bit more logistically, finding a way to use it to make everyone’s life better by allowing everyone to be involved to an extent, and that way everyone would be just a bit nicer, a bit more honest, and a bit better off. That way, everyone is able to benefit, and I think that is the closest to completion that God’s plan can come on earth, because I don’t think that people are willing to resist compromise. I feel that more of a give and take relationship with God would be *welcomed *by Him, since that way you’re at the very least closer to Him than you were before.

Is it possible that maybe the “right” religion isn’t just the one dictated that we choose? After all, with all of the possible permutations of ideas, the number of possible “right” religions is infinite. What are the odds that ANY organized religion hit it head-on? After all, most resist compromise to maintain individuality, and throughout history held on stubbornly to views even in teh face of clear opposition…

Not to say that the church is bad, not at all, just that it’s an organization run by men, and men are fallible…
 
I have always wondered where this “once saved, always saved” came from?

Look, putting religious interpretations to the side, it doesn’t even make sense. Why would a God say tell His people that so long as they verbally claim to accept Him, they can do whatever they want?

:confused: :confused:
 
The way I see it, you can’t just say that you love Him, because actions speak louder than words. If you actually mean that you love Him, completely and fully, then I don’t see how a loving God can refuse you from Heaven.

Now, if everyone says “I love God” and turns around and kills, rapes, and steals, then we can look at the passage from Matthew up a few posts, and see that God differentiates between saying that you love Him and meaning that you love Him. Namely, if you actually do love Him, you will act like it.

Not to think that you’d abandon everything in most cases, though, because in society that won’t have an iceballs chance in Hell of ever happening, and God knows better than to set forth an impossible task. Instead, why not allow compromise by Him saying, if you truly love me, then act like it. That way, everyone can be close to Him, and no one will be left out of His glory if they actually want to be there.
 
I often struggle with the idea that I think you are espousing.
It is like ’ this is the rule’ , with no gray areas.
Get a group of people together the next time a rainbow is in the sky.
Each of you sees it, but not really. In fact, each of you sees a totally different rainbow based on where you are standing. Your rainbows may look identical, but your rainbow is made up of different water molecules than the person standing right next to you.
It seems to me, the way we individually perceive the commandments, biblical passages, etc is going to be influenced by our individual past. Each of us will interpret according to our own makeup.
And God, being the infinite God that he is, will judge each of us, not on some hard and fast, no room for interpretation rule, but on how we perceive that rule and how we try to follow it.

In Christs name, I wish you peace.
 
dkong_469 said:
So lets pose a hypothetical situation here:

Two people love each other and love God.

These two people, lets call them Jack and Jill, don’t get to see each other much. Either a long distance relationship, or restrictive parents, or lack of transport to each other, pick the problem.

Jack and Jill each believe that Jesus died for their sins, and believe in God with all their heart. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Since they believe this (I’m really bad at scripture numbers, so if someone knows where this is, that’d be GREAT), then they are guaranteed getting into heaven. Jesus (or God) said that the only way to the father is through Jesus, and whoever believes that Jesus died for our sins is allowed in Heaven. Now, we are each supposed to love Jesus enough to follow his rules, but this isn’t explicitly stated as a way to get into Heaven, rather something we should do as good, God-fearing people.

Jack and Jill have become much more physically together, BUT WON’T HAVE SEX, OF ANY FORM. They refrain from any higher temptations, and don’t do much at all by todays standards. (Okay, I know that we shouldn’t judge ourselves by society, but come-on, a little bit of realism for those of us who can’t recite the Bible would be nice)

Jack and Jill honestly believe that their physical actions (hugging, kissing, etc) are demonstrations of their love for each other.

So my question, is this relationship going to Hell, even though they love Jesus, believe He died for them, and refrained from much because He said so, or is that not enough that these two can’t express their love to each other like that, because it contains a physical component?

Again, these two also don’t see each other much (I’m thinking like 3 days a month, so maybe for a week or two at a time every few months for a really long distance relationship, lack of cars and needing friends/family to drive them and they can’t get that help often, whatever) so it’s not like the physical aspect of their relationship overshadows any other parts, such as communication and genuinely caring for and loving each other.

I’d love to hear what your views are. Sorry that this took so long to write, but I hope that you’ll take the time to respond now that you’ve already made it this far. ALL RESPONSES WELCOME!!!

Thanks everyone!

Peace
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Other than being based on a false premise, it’s an interesting question. There is no guarantee of getting to heaven. To believe so is to deny Christ the power to condemn you. If He cannot condemn you, neither can He save you. This will sound new to you, but it’s old.

Christ’s peace.
 
dkong_469 said:
The way I see it, you can’t just say that you love Him, because actions speak louder than words. If you actually mean that you love Him, completely and fully, then I don’t see how a loving God can refuse you from Heaven.
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Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945) was a Lutheran minister and he is anti-Catholic. Nevertheless, he has written a powerful book on discipleship called The Cost of Discipleship. I don’t know what the Catholic equivalent of this book would be.

He explains what discipleship is, leaving everything and following Jesus. There are many lesson in discipleship in this book, with much scriptural support. It’s really hard, I think, for any Christian to refute the power of Jesus call to discipleship.

dkong, you don’t want Jesus’ gospel, you want to rewrite it to dkong’s gospel. Doesn’t work that way.
 
dkong_469 said:
Now, if everyone says “I love God” and turns around and kills, rapes, and steals, then we can look at the passage from Matthew up a few posts, and see that God differentiates between saying that you love Him and meaning that you love Him. Namely, if you actually do love Him, you will act like it.
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Are we understanding what love is? Are we talking warm, fuzzy feelings of liking God? Or are we talking loving God which means always doing one’s best to follow his will for us instead of our own proclivities? In other words we may not even like him, but we adhere to his will for us. That is love.
 
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