Pianos, Guitars, Drums- Liturgical? Allowed at all?

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Mark651

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Hi everyone,

My first post although I’ve been trolling around for a while now. I appreciate all of the info and edification that I’ve gotten from this Forum and it’s members.

I’m a revert and what I reverted to was orthodox, Catechism Catholicism. Thought I’d just have to walk into an average church and find it, but it hasn’t quite worked out that way Lol.

I was at Mass today and wasn’t sure whether I’d wandered into a really bad Broadway musical or a U2 concert. I’ve learned to grin and bear these things, but this time they were doing some sort of Top 40ish ensemble during the Consecration. What bothered me the most was that they were banging away on a set of drums as well. This was done during the prelude and in the middle of the Consecration, just before the priest lifts up the Eucharist.

I’m a fairly young guy and don’t want to whine, but (aside from being the tackiest, most disrespectful thing I’ve ever seen), isn’t this against Canon Law?? I thought that I heard that no precussion instruments should be played at any time during the Mass (hence an organ instead of a piano), but that’s obviously not a hard and fast rule, given guitar Masses, etc. During the Consecration, however, isn’t a drum “against the law”?? If it is, I’m going to bring it up with our pastor. I truly felt embarrassed for Christ!

I’ll never understand that mind set. The Church isn’t “Cool” and never will be. It’s Beautiful and True. This Mass was apparently for young people and is supposed to draw them in I guess. Rather than teaching the faith with passion and eloquence, I guess this is easier…but it won’t work! They’ll come in and leave with nothing. If I want to hear drums, I’ll put on the Stones and listen to Charlie Watts!

Sorry for going on/off, but this was everything that I thought the Catholic Church wasn’t. It was like- “Heeeere’s Jesus!” (Drum riff, etc.).

Again, if it’s against Canon Law, I’m going to have a chat.

Not crazy about coming out of Mass in a bad mood.

Thanks
 
Mark651 said:
I was at Mass today and wasn’t sure whether I’d wandered into a really bad Broadway musical or a U2 concert.
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Glad to have you posting!
I can’t answer your question but I do want to say that you stated this well.
Last week on vacation, I attended a mass that was like this. All I could think of was playing mass with Necco wafers when I was a child. I thought God was looking down like a loving parent with a child putting on a made up performance. He knows it isn’t good but they are trying so hard to do well. I’m sure He shook his All Loving Head and smiled patronizingly.
 
The Church teachs that any instrument can be used for worship as long as it suitable for liturgy.

She makes no comment on which instruments are not suitable, which leaves much to opinion and interpretation. I am comfortable with a full ensemble of instruments (as long as they are played in a manner that supports the prayer of the community and in a manner suitable for the Mass). There are others here that are not comfortable with guitars, bass, percussion, etc.

However, regardless of the instrument, no music should be played during the consecration. That is expressly forbidden, but in the realm of problems in the liturgy, a relatively minor one.
 
If I am ordained someday, there will be no drums in my parish. Period. I can tolerate a piano and, for a while, guitarists who act reverently, but the only percussion instruments will be the bells in the tower. If there aren’t any, there will be.
 
Cavaille-Coll said:
If I am ordained someday, there will be no drums in my parish. Period. I can tolerate a piano and, for a while, guitarists who act reverently, but the only percussion instruments will be the bells in the tower. If there aren’t any, there will be.
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:blessyou: I hate drums in church. I once heard O Come, O Come, Emmanuel done with drums in church. :eek: :nope: :tsktsk: :banghead: :bigyikes:
 
Early in the 20th Century, Pope, now St. Pius X waged an aggresive campaign against “Modernism” in the Church. This included what he felt were innovations in the Liturgy, including the use of string and wind instruments. These restrictions have been largely relaxed, but the requirement for reverence never has been. I have no issue with drums, trumpets, guitars pianos at Mass, but again the key is reverence. That includes silence during the Consecration. The key to music is that it is Liturgical. Raindrops Keep Falling On my Head isn’t liturgical, and never will be be., neither is “When the Saints go Marching In”. Making a joyful noise unto the Lord also means making reverent noise, at the proper time in the Liturgy.
 
It sounds like a contemporary mass is not the thing for the OP, but drums are not always contemporary. We have a full orchestra for Christmas and Easter which includes what I believe are called kettle drums such as are seen in symphonic concerts. Of course they are not playing during the consecration, etc. Our Lifeteen mass (only 1 of 7 available weekend masses) has an actual drum kit but they are not banging away all of the time. The recessional song is usually up tempo, but that is really after the liturgy has ended with the final blessing.

For every parishioner there is going to be a different preference in music for the liturgy, so I would say if someone feels strongly that their preference is totally unrepresented at the available liturgies that they should get involved at their parish and provide some polite (name removed by moderator)ut at the appropriate time. This does not mean sending snotty emails anonymously to the music director even if their choices are horrible in your opinion. I have no indication that the OP might do this, but it happens often enough that I mention it as a caution for when emotions run high.
 
I’m not a fan of drums per se, but under the general category of percussion, a mass I sometimes attend uses cymbals with a wire brush, which add a nice complexity and emphasis to the piano, without being intrusive in the way that drums or struck cymbals often are. The combination sounds much better than the organ in that church.
 
1 Paralipomenon 13
8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might with hymns, and with harps, and with psalteries, and timbrels, and cymbals, and trumpets,
1 Paralipomenon 15
16 And David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites, to appoint some of their brethren to be singers with musical instruments, to wit, on psalteries, and harps, and cymbals, that the joyful noise might resound on high.
2 Paralipomenon 5
13 So when they all sounded together, both with trumpets, and voice, and cymbals, and organs, and with divers kind of musical instruments, and lifted up their voice on high: the sound was heard afar off, so that when they began to praise the Lord, and to say: Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever: the house of God was filled with a cloud.
Judith 16
2 Begin ye to the Lord with timbrels, sing ye to the Lord with cymbals, tune unto him a new psalm, extol and call upon his name.
Psalms 150
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.
Psalms 32
2 Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.

A few of many passages regarding music. Somehow I do not see a gregorian chant in these…
 
I cannot honestly see what the problem is here. Is the problem musical instruments at mass or a certain type of musical instrument at mass?

As a father to a 15yr old drummer I can honestly say I do not like the sound of drums alone but as an accompaniament instrument to guitars and keyboards, it sounds OK.
 
mastda said:
I cannot honestly see what the problem is here. Is the problem musical instruments at mass or a certain type of musical instrument at mass?
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There is almost continuously one thread or another on these boards with people griping about the music during the liturgy. There are some who will argue aggressively against anything more modern than chant, others promote no instruments other than organ, blah, blah. Just watch yourself if you don’t think there is a problem with more modern music during the liturgy because the “discussions” can get really snippy, really quickly.
 
Lifeteen style Masses are usually on Sunday evening, so they are usually quite easy to avoid. I really enjoy going to them at times they are an inspiration. My eldest daughter plays the violin and plays with a youth Mass ensemble near her university. They do an excellent job. Yes, they have a drum and it is played very tastefully, not with regular drumsticks but something else that I don’t know the name of that makes a very soft sound. They add a mellow bongo occasionally to some songs. There is an excellent accoustical guitarist there.They also have a piano.

The whole effect is lovely. The group practises regularly and is mostly made up of young people, except for the pianist and guitarist. The young people are all dedicated to the Lord, and it’s a wonderful way for them to socialize and contribute. For those who prefer traditional music, there is plenty still available. 👍
 
WenckebachCath said:
Most Lifeteen style Masses are usually on Sunday evening, so they are usually quite easy to avoid. I really enjoy going to them at times they are an inspiration. My eldest daughter plays the violin and plays with a youth Mass ensemble near her university. They do an excellent job. Yes, they have a drum and it is played very tastefully, not with regular drumsticks but something else that I don’t know the name of that makes a very soft sound. They add a mellow bongo occasionally to some songs. There is an excellent accoustical guitarist there.They also have a piano.

The whole effect is lovely. The group practises regularly and is mostly made up of young people, except for the pianist and guitarist. The young people are all dedicated to the Lord, and it’s a wonderful way for them to socialize and contribute. For those who prefer traditional music, there is plenty still available. 👍
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I think I get it now. The problem is not music at mass, it is the drums at mass when played with normal drumsticks. But drums are OK only if they are played with drumsticks that don’t make noise.

Almost like playing pretend drums! Do you then get a pretend drummer? Is playing pretend drums like playing air guitar?

Surely there are more pressing issues in the Church today then drums at mass.
 
mastda said:
Surely there are more pressing issues in the Church today then drums at mass.
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You might be surprised.

“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy”
  • Pope Benedict XVI (as Cardinal Ratzinger)
 
VociMike said:
You might be surprised.

“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy”
  • Pope Benedict XVI (as Cardinal Ratzinger)
Click to expand...
This disintegration is caused by drums and drum playing at mass?
 
mastda said:
This disintegration is caused by drums and drum playing at mass?
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Music is one of the key components of liturgy. The Church acknowledges that. The average level of liturgical music today is often abysmal and often unsuitable. The lets-rock-out-at-Mass crowd is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
 
Drums/Rock/Pop/10th rate music during Mass is, I’m sure, permissible if tacky/annoying. During “The Great Amen” of the Consecration though? I don’t think so, if you believe what the Church says is happening then is actually happening.

The entire phenom, I think, is misguided though. It’s almost conceding that a pastor, etc. is unable to find anything within 2000 years of Church history to keep young people engaged. It’s a spinoff of the Mega Church thing…and it won’t work! If they rely upon what’s current to fill the pews, it won’t end with lousy music. Doctrine will start to change (good Journey Home this week with a former Mega Church Evangelical about this) or there’ll be a big pull in that direction. It’s already happening of course. This mind set contributes to it…a lot!

And what about the message it sends?? “It’s all about us/the kids”. No. It’s not. Not in the Catholic Church. That’s a big reason for my having come back. It was about Him and not me for once.

There’s so much to excite a kid (or anyone) and engage his/her imagination about the Catholic faith. Saints and martyrs and history and desperate battles against great odds and people who drew/are drawing lines in the sand. Why dumb it down? Why assume that we all have to be entertained with contemporary fluff?? I guess because it’s easier to “put on a show” than it is to teach and preach with energy and passion.

Again, I’m a fairly young guy and you couldn’t have come from a more trendy, Upper West Side environment than I did. It’s when all of that crashes and burns that many people find the “otherness”, silence and sense of awe of the Church and how much it was missing and needed.

I think that there’s a place for young people to let their hair down, play guitars, bang drums, sing, dance, etc. But not during Mass. Not one kid (or parent) looked as though they were paying attention to a thing but themselves or their little Jane/Johnny.

And they were…really BAD!! Lol.
 
Mark, I certainly appreciate your concern and agree wholeheartedly with you. There is a rock band-style drum set at our parish too, and frankly it’s quite embarrassing. The drummer plays as if he is playing secular music you would hear on a soft rock radio station. It absolutely ruins each and every song. But there are a lot of people in the church today that just don’t get it–they don’t see the problem created by bringing secular music into the mass. They think the mass is an appropriate place for a band to get their groove on–and to entertain the crowd. They don’t see how this destroys any sense of sacredness or holiness for the mass itself. And this is a BIG ISSUE, because it directly affects the environment in which mass is celebrated. Mass is not the place to “get down.” There should be an environment of reverence–something that has been lost in many parishes in favor of entertainment.

In order to change people’s minds on this issue, and change their hearts, we have to help them see how beautiful, sacred, and holy the mass is. We have to show them how we’ve cheapened the whole experience with awful pop style music. We don’t need chant all the time, but I’ve yet to see how a drum set or an electrical guitar could ever be appropriate for liturgical music. Believe me–the bands don’t use those instruments because they sound sacred. They use those instruments because it’s fun for them and they think it sounds cool. But that’s not why we go to mass, is it?

Look at it this way–do you usually see a rock band play at the wedding ceremony in the church? No, they play at the reception because it’s not appropriate for the wedding ceremony in the church. Now why should we treat the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (mass) any differently? I don’t know at what point folk/soft rock bands became popular at mass, but I wish people then would have spoken up more against it so we still wouldn’t have to be dealing with it now. I wish especially that pastors would stop this nonsense in their own parishes, regardless of what the congregation wants.
 
catholic2 said:
1 Paralipomenon 13
8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might with hymns, and with harps, and with psalteries, and timbrels, and cymbals, and trumpets,
1 Paralipomenon 15
16 And David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites, to appoint some of their brethren to be singers with musical instruments, to wit, on psalteries, and harps, and cymbals, that the joyful noise might resound on high.
2 Paralipomenon 5
13 So when they all sounded together, both with trumpets, and voice, and cymbals, and organs, and with divers kind of musical instruments, and lifted up their voice on high: the sound was heard afar off, so that when they began to praise the Lord, and to say: Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever: the house of God was filled with a cloud.
Judith 16
2 Begin ye to the Lord with timbrels, sing ye to the Lord with cymbals, tune unto him a new psalm, extol and call upon his name.
Psalms 150
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.
Psalms 32
2 Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.

A few of many passages regarding music. Somehow I do not see a gregorian chant in these…
Click to expand...
People often use these versus as an excuse to play rock music at mass. But that’s not what’s going on here–and it’s not mass either! I think if you could pluck someone from David’s time or from the early New Testament church and subject them to modern day liturgical music, they would be quite embarassed and might want to run right out of that environment.
 
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