Pick a side on gay issue!

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Digger71:
Agreeing that a same-sex couple cannot have children short of miracle or novel mutation, and given this will not be their primary purpose for marriage. The primary purpose of their marriage is different to yours.

This does not invalidate the marriage, it just means their marriage is not the same as your marriage.
I agree with you that children are not the primary purpose for marriage for everyone. It was not for me. I decided to marry my husband because I loved him (and still do) with every inch of my being and wanted to be with this one man for the rest of my life. I knew full and good that I have fertility issues and my husband could have issues because of his diabetes, but that didn’t stop me from marriage. we hope we have kids some day, but they were not the primary reason for our marrying. however, I disagree with gay marriage, whats wrong with civil unions?
 
I’m replying to myself. (Is talking to yourself a sign of genius or insanity…I don’t remember. 🙂 )

I googled to find the support for my statement and found an article:
nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200402020917.asp
Marriage in Nordland is in severe decline. In 2002, an extraordinary 82.27 percent of first-born children in Nordland were born out-of-wedlock. A “mere” 67.29 percent of all children born in Nordland in 2002 were born out-of-wedlock. As I explained in “The End of Marriage in Scandinavia,” many of these births are to unmarried, but cohabiting, couples. Yet cohabiting couples in Scandinavia break up at two to three times the rate of married couples. Since the Norwegian tendency to marry after the second child is gradually giving way, it is likely that the 67-percent figure for all out-of-wedlock births will someday catch up to the 82-percent figure for first-born out-of-wedlock births. At that point, marriage in Nordland will be effectively dead.

Now consider the county of Nord-Troendelag, which is bordered by NTNU (Norwegian University of Science and Technology). NTNU is where Kari Moxnes and Kari Melby teach — two radical pro-gay marriage social scientists. Nord-Troendelag is like Massachusetts — a socially liberal state influenced by left-leaning institutions of higher learning. In Nord-Troendelag in 2002, the out-of-wedlock birthrate for first-born children was 83.27 percent. The out-of-wedlock birthrate for all children was 66.85 percent. These rates are far higher than the rates for Norway as a whole.

When we look at Nordland and Nord-Troendelag — the Vermont and Massachusetts of Norway — we are peering as far as we can into the future of marriage in a world where gay marriage is almost totally accepted. What we see is a place where marriage itself has almost totally disappeared.
The link to Kurtz’s original article, *The End of Marriage in Scandinavia, *doesn’t work, but I found it by googling again: weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp?pg=2 . There is more data in that article, as well. Is his conclusion argued? Of course. The article quoted above is a rebuttal to arguments by Andrew Sullivan, a conservative gay activist.
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rlg94086:
I still don’t see any advantage to society in making this change. In fact, I think it will devalue marriage. My understanding from other posts I’ve seen is that empirical data shows a sharper decline in marriage in countries that have allowed same sex civil unions. As someone who values the institution of marriage, I see no reason to make a change which will hasten it’s demise.
 
See my post right after yours…it links to an article about the effect of civil unions on marriage in Scandinavia.

As far as your marriage, bless you and your husband. From the Catechism:

The openness to fertility

1652
***“By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”***162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163

1653 The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.164 In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.165

*1654 Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice. *
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TarAshly:
I agree with you that children are not the primary purpose for marriage for everyone. It was not for me. I decided to marry my husband because I loved him (and still do) with every inch of my being and wanted to be with this one man for the rest of my life. I knew full and good that I have fertility issues and my husband could have issues because of his diabetes, but that didn’t stop me from marriage. we hope we have kids some day, but they were not the primary reason for our marrying. however, I disagree with gay marriage, whats wrong with civil unions?
 
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TarAshly:
I agree with you that children are not the primary purpose for marriage for everyone.
As a Catholic responding to a fellow Catholic can you please tell us what the Church says is the primary purpose for marriage for Catholics?
 
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setter:
I think that we are saying the same thing. Whereby, SSA is a deviation, abberation from the norm of properly ordered (versus dis-ordered) and is a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder/disturbance.

I whole heartidly agree. Example: A person with bipolar disorder should not have a pathological identity such as “he/she is a bipolar”, but rather “he/she is afflicted with bipolar mood disorder”. We can always be whole in Christ as we keep united with Him. That is Christian reality and the good news of the gospel. 👍
But you both miss so many points. Our Church teaches us to treat everyone with respect, calling it ‘SSA’ and calling SSA and affliction contradicts this.

Deeper, if disorder is a bad thing then our opposition to same-sex unions is hypocritical, for we make sure people who enjoy ‘SSA’ are deliberately destabalised. destabalisation is the opposite of ‘ordered’ and we become authors of that we oppose.

Deeper still, you cannot label someone with their knowledge without creating identity. With labels we create a community, a culture, and a movement…just as we identify with being Catholics, so communities by being called ‘disordered’ (something they do not feel) come in to existance.

Gay people are not afflicted by with feelings, they are afflicted with us.
 
Thank you for you kind words of charity and support. there are so many people who treat childless marrieds as less than Catholic and their marriages as less than valid. we are not selfish, inhuman, incapable of love. we are trying to arrange our lives to be fruitful for a child and pray daily for a child. we are open to life, but it has yet to happen yet, and our marriage is still full of love, charity, service to each other and our community. Thank you. and Setter, there’s the answer to your question.
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rlg94086:
See my post right after yours…it links to an article about the effect of civil unions on marriage in Scandinavia.

As far as your marriage, bless you and your husband. From the Catechism:

The openness to fertility

1652
***“By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”***162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163

1653 The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.164 In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.165

1654 Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
 
“think that we are saying the same thing. Whereby, SSA is a deviation, abberation from the norm of properly ordered (versus dis-ordered) and is a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder/disturbance.”

What you are saying is that yr slang describes some sort of mental illness. What illness you are describing cannot be found in the psychiatric literature. Odd. If you are trying to discuss homosexuality, the mental health professions unanimously declare homosexuality is a normal varient of the range of human sexuality.
apa.org/pi/statemen.html
apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/guidelines.html
cpa.ca/cpasite/showPage.asp?id=1007&fr=#Discrimination%20on%20Sexual%20Orientation
socialworkers.org/diversity/default.asp

This argument seems very similar to the one over evolution. Some Christian faiths believe God created the earth in 6 calendar days. No amount of scientific evidence can dissuade the devout. OK. The US is a free country and no one can force you to change yr religious beliefs. The scientific evidence overwhelmingly shows homosexuality is a normal varient of human sexuality – not a mental illness. If it’s a sin, that’s up to you and yr faith. But it is not a mental illness.

The thread is about gay rights – another slang term that postulates what rights, if any, do gay men and lesbians have in secular society.

The answer is the same rights as other American citizens. Again, that might be against yr version of yr faith. But secular laws and various interpretations of various faiths are completely different concepts here in the US. Here, secular laws rule.
 
How can calling it Same Sex Attraction contradict treating people with respect? It is Same Sex Attraction…

As far as “disorder”, you are obviously using it differently than the Church, when it refers to same sex attraction as disordered. We are all called to chastity. Someone with this disorder, is called to celibacy in order to be chaste.

There’s nothing hateful or disrespectful in any of what I just said. It is what it is. If I explain to a blind person that they are not allowed to get a driver’s license, I’m not being mean. I’m telling them the truth.

God bless,

Robert
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Digger71:
But you both miss so many points. Our Church teaches us to treat everyone with respect, calling it ‘SSA’ and calling SSA and affliction contradicts this.

Deeper, if disorder is a bad thing then our opposition to same-sex unions is hypocritical, for we make sure people who enjoy ‘SSA’ are deliberately destabalised. destabalisation is the opposite of ‘ordered’ and we become authors of that we oppose.

Deeper still, you cannot label someone with their knowledge without creating identity. With labels we create a community, a culture, and a movement…just as we identify with being Catholics, so communities by being called ‘disordered’ (something they do not feel) come in to existance.

Gay people are not afflicted by with feelings, they are afflicted with us.
 
Mike,

As your profile says your religion is “none”, I will cut you some slack. As Catholics, we don’t rely on the psychiatric communtiy to tell us what is ordered and what is disordered when it comes to sexuality. We rely on the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other teaching by what is called the Magisterium (our Bishops in communion with our Pope).

We do believe that all human beings should have the same rights. However, it is a matter of definition. We all have the right to marry…one person, someone of the opposite sex, who is not a close relative, etc.

God bless,

Robert

MikeinSD said:
“think that we are saying the same thing. Whereby, SSA is a deviation, abberation from the norm of properly ordered (versus dis-ordered) and is a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder/disturbance.”

What you are saying is that yr slang describes some sort of mental illness. What illness you are describing cannot be found in the psychiatric literature. Odd. If you are trying to discuss homosexuality, the mental health professions unanimously declare homosexuality is a normal varient of the range of human sexuality.
apa.org/pi/statemen.html
apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/guidelines.html
cpa.ca/cpasite/showPage.asp?id=1007&fr=#Discrimination%20on%20Sexual%20Orientation
socialworkers.org/diversity/default.asp

This argument seems very similar to the one over evolution. Some Christian faiths believe God created the earth in 6 calendar days. No amount of scientific evidence can dissuade the devout. OK. The US is a free country and no one can force you to change yr religious beliefs. The scientific evidence overwhelmingly shows homosexuality is a normal varient of human sexuality – not a mental illness. If it’s a sin, that’s up to you and yr faith. But it is not a mental illness.

The thread is about gay rights – another slang term that postulates what rights, if any, do gay men and lesbians have in secular society.

The answer is the same rights as other American citizens. Again, that might be against yr version of yr faith. But secular laws and various interpretations of various faiths are completely different concepts here in the US. Here, secular laws rule.
 
Thanks Robert,

I know some good Protestants who tell me the earth was created in 6 days. That’s a part of their faith. Ok. Has nothing to do with science.

If Catholics believe homosexuality is a sin, then homosexuality is a sin in their faith. Ok. Has nothing to do with science.

Some religious people believe gay men are sinners according to their faith. Ok. Has nothing to do with science.

Some folks believe that gay men are sinners. Therefore gay men therefore do not have rights like other Americans.

I have a problem with that. So does the law. So do police. So does all the mental health professional associations.

Religious faith and science are not the same. That’s why I compared evolution to homosexuality. You may not like either but both are scientific facts.

Thanks,
Mike
 
The Church does not reject science, in fact you would be amazed at the number of scientists employed by the Church.

Many in the Church have spoken about evolution, including Pope John Paul II, and explained how the science of evolution is not contrary to our beliefs as Catholics. (Be prepared for some on this forum to hit me with a sledge hammer on that one). That said, homosexuality as a state of being is not a scientifically known fact. Yes, psychologists have changed it from being a disorder, but the cause of same sex attraction is not known.

Even if the cause was known, the fact that someone has a desire does not make the actions which result from that desire acceptable. There are people who have desires to kill others. There are people who have a strong desire to steal. Etcetera. For all we know, science could find chemical, genetic or other causes for these disordered desires. It would not change the sinful nature of the acts which come from those impulses.

Again, people with SSA do have the same rights to marriage as everyone else. However, the definition of marriage which society has accepted for quite a long time is exclusively a man-woman union, with other rules which apply. I realize that some are trying to change that definition. I’m sure you don’t need me to restate my earlier arguments. They’ve been laid out…*ad nauseum. *You will note my arguments were given from both a religious and biological viewpoint.

As far as other rights for “gay men”, I think there are some common sense exclusions. For example, when it comes to PE coaches at schools, with offices and access to the locker rooms and showers it makes sense that a man with SSA in the boy’s area or a woman with SSA in the girl’s area should not be allowed to fill that position unless you move his/her office and keep him/her out of the locker room area. Why? For the same reason you wouldn’t let a “heterosexual” male in the girl’s locker room. I’m sure you agree this is reasonable. Similarly, I have no problem with a male Scoutmaster with SSA, as long as one-on-one situations are not allowed.

This has nothing to do with religious faith…it’s common sense.
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MikeinSD:
Thanks Robert,

I know some good Protestants who tell me the earth was created in 6 days. That’s a part of their faith. Ok. Has nothing to do with science.

If Catholics believe homosexuality is a sin, then homosexuality is a sin in their faith. Ok. Has nothing to do with science.

Some religious people believe gay men are sinners according to their faith. Ok. Has nothing to do with science.

Some folks believe that gay men are sinners. Therefore gay men therefore do not have rights like other Americans.

I have a problem with that. So does the law. So do police. So does all the mental health professional associations.

Religious faith and science are not the same. That’s why I compared evolution to homosexuality. You may not like either but both are scientific facts.

Thanks,
Mike
 
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Digger71:
Falsified by history.
It is not only authentic history, it is known from right reason.
Marriage exists in a social and legislative context, and I believe same-sex marriages existed in the past and currently exist in several european countries in one form or the other.
That some civil authority recognizes illegitimate unions does not mean they are good or reasonable. Civil authorities make errors all the time.
The underlying fundamental principle recognised is the relationship in these instances, not reproduction.
Incorrect. The fundamental principle is not some personal emotion, or disordered desire. Many want it to be simply a relationship, but all relationships are not marriages.
 
MikeinSD said:
“think that we are saying the same thing. Whereby, SSA is a deviation, abberation from the norm of properly ordered (versus dis-ordered) and is a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder/disturbance.”

What you are saying is that yr slang describes some sort of mental illness. What illness you are describing cannot be found in the psychiatric literature. Odd. If you are trying to discuss homosexuality, the mental health professions unanimously declare homosexuality is a normal varient of the range of human sexuality.

The Catholic Medical Association is not unanimous in declaring homosexuality as a “normal variant of …”. Rather the Catholic community recognizes homosexual (SSA) attraction as a deviation from the norm and a symptom of maladaptive psycho-sexual development.
The research referenced in this report counters the myth that same-sex attraction is genetically predetermined and unchangeable and offers hope for prevention and treatment.
Healthy psycho-sexual development leads naturally to attraction in persons of each sex for the other sex. Trauma, erroneous education, and sin can cause a deviation from this pattern. Persons should not be identified with their emotional or developmental conflicts as though this were the essence of their identity. In the debate between essentialism and social constructionism, the believer in natural law would hold that human beings have an essential nature – either male or female – and that sinful inclinations (such as the desire to engage in homosexual acts) are constructed and can, therefore, be deconstructed.
It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors.
Individuals experience same-sex attractions for different reasons. While there are similarities in the patterns of development, each individual has a unique, personal history. In the histories of persons who experience same-sex attraction, one frequently finds one or more of the following: (numerous – refer to article)
If the emotional and developmental needs of each child are properly met by both family and peers, the development of same-sex attraction is very unlikely.
cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html
 
Digger71 said:
But you both miss so many points. Our Church teaches us to treat everyone
with respect, calling it ‘SSA’ and calling SSA and affliction contradicts this.
Quite the opposite, unless of course one adheres to the belief (again in service of the gay agenda propoganda) that SSA is an unchangeable condition and therefore cannot be changed. Here is the Catholic position:
A number of researchers have sought to find a biological cause for same-sexual attraction. The media have promoted the idea that a “gay gene” has already been discovered (Burr 1996[3]), but in spite of several attempts, none of the much publicized studies (Hamer 1993[4]; LeVay 1991[5]) has been scientifically replicated. (Gadd 1998) A number of authors have carefully reviewed these studies and found that not only do the studies not prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction; the reports do not even contain such claims. (Byne 1963[6]; Crewdson 1995[7]; Goldberg1992; Horgan 1995[8]; McGuire 1995[9]; Porter 1996; Rice 1999[10])
There are, however, ongoing attempts to convince the public that same-sex attraction is genetically based. (Marmor 1975[13]) Such attempts may be politically motivated because people are more likely to respond positively to demands for changes in laws and religious teaching when they believe sexual attraction to be genetically determined and unchangeable. (Ernulf 1989[14]; Piskur 1992[15]) Others have sought to prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction so that they could appeal to the courts for rights based on the “immutability”. (Green 1988[16])
Catholics believe that sexuality was designed by God as a sign of the love of Christ, the bridegroom, for his Bride, the Church, and therefore sexual activity is appropriate only in marriage. Catholic teaching holds that: “Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion.E(CCC, n.2360) Healthy psycho-sexual development leads naturally to attraction in persons of each sex for the other sex.
Trauma, erroneous education, and sin can cause a deviation from this pattern. Persons should not be identified with their emotional or developmental conflicts as though this were the essence of their identity. In the debate between essentialism and social constructionism, the believer in natural law would hold that human beings have an essential nature – either male or female – and that sinful inclinations (such as the desire to engage in homosexual acts) are constructed and can, therefore, be deconstructed.

It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors.
cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html
Deeper, **if disorder is a bad thing **
then our opposition to same-sex unions is hypocritical, for we make sure people who enjoy ‘SSA’ are deliberately destabalised. destabalisation is the opposite of ‘ordered’ and we become authors of that we oppose.
“Disorder” is neither a bad or good thing (it is a moral disorder, but is not intrinsically good or bad), it is a medical or psychological condition. This is another tactic utilized by the gay activist camp to link the condition of SSA with morality in and of itself. The tactical reason of the gay activist is to then remove from the debate any organization or voice associated with religious foundation; and by way of stripping natural law from the debate, the gay activist claim SSA is normal (i.e., not a symptom of deviation or maladaptation) and ought to be treated as much.
Deeper still
, you cannot label someone with their knowledge without creating identity. With labels we create a community, a culture, and a movement…just as we identify with being Catholics, so communities by being called ‘disordered’ (something they do not feel) come in to existance.
Deeper still in the propoganda hogwash of gay activist indoctrination. Not creating an “identity” to discriminate or segregate with, but appropriately and accurately labeling a psychological condition. By your logic, anyone with religious foundations should be segregating and creating communities for anyone with a medical/mental disorder.
Gay people are not afflicted by with feelings, they are afflicted with us.
Again, you seek to blame those religious based folks who offer the only truly compassionate response.
 
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Digger71:
But you both miss so many points. Our Church teaches us to treat everyone with respect, calling it ‘SSA’ and calling SSA and affliction contradicts this.
No, there is no contradiction. Accurate terminology helps us understand the issue and allows us not to confuse issues.
Deeper, if disorder is a bad thing then our opposition to same-sex unions is hypocritical, for we make sure people who enjoy ‘SSA’ are deliberately destabalised. destabalisation is the opposite of ‘ordered’ and we become authors of that we oppose.
If a desire is disordered it is by definition not ordered toward the good. How is it authentic help to allow such desires to be acted on in a public way? It is not helpful for those with the disordered desire, nor is it helpful for the general public.
Deeper still, you cannot label someone with their knowledge without creating identity. With labels we create a community, a culture, and a movement…just as we identify with being Catholics, so communities by being called ‘disordered’ (something they do not feel) come in to existance.
This is interesting. We need to understand there exist labels that are accurate and ones that are false. For example, the label “gay” is a false label. That is used as cover by a movement that wants to justify behaviors. The label same sex attraction accurately describes a desire or inclination that certain folks have.

BTW, that one does not feel something does not mean such a feeling is true.
Gay people are not afflicted by with feelings, they are afflicted with us.
This reasoning is a big part of the problem.
 
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setter:
I will repeat myself one last time, and if you do not have a response, please just ignore or say so, rather than circumvent and deflect (obfuscate), because your lack of a coherent response demonstrates to me that your premise is flawed and lacking:
We have already established that perception is affected by feelings/emotions which modify your interactions with the environment, thus creating a reality, albeit subjective. It is possible for objective facts to be established, such as finding the fossils of the aerchiopterix, but what reality is established? To Hoyle it was a hoax, to some pealiontologists it was a clrear transitional form, to some creationists it is a test of faith and to others a true bird. In the scientific community a concensus is reached, but that reality is not agreed by all, other interpretations are possible and these directly affect the cultural reality, though the fossils themselves remain objectively real.

The problem with the gay rights issue is that what many consider objective reality is actually cultural bias. This whole debate is about two interpretations of what we consider to be ‘objective’ facts. Simply, I know that your objective facts are actually subjective interpretations.

I’ll skip on to Robinson, who unfortunately finds himself marooned on a island with no other humans. That is, no one but him.

The ‘objective fact’ that his reproductive organs are to be used for propagating the species is immediately found to be false. There are no other people with which to breed. That use ceases to be the real use, and simply becomes a theoretical use and remains so until the situation changes.

We find in some of the doctrines we are asked to believe a similar situation. The difference being that rather than accept the objective fact that there is a problem in the analysis, reality is criticised for not matching the theory.
 
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fix:
No, there is no contradiction. Accurate terminology helps us understand the issue and allows us not to confuse issues. .
I am afraid BlindSheep disagrees with you. He has strong objections to people using the term ‘breeding’ to describe his activity.

And the language is not accurate, just as ‘breeding’ in no way respects the life and values and intense emotions involved in ‘breeding’, so ‘SSA’ in no way recognises the life, and values and intense emotions in ‘SSA’.

Both terms are derogatory. Neither is respectful.

If the church really wants to teach respect for humans, it needs to start with itself, in this instance.
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fix:
If a desire is disordered it is by definition not ordered toward the good. How is it authentic help to allow such desires to be acted on in a public way? It is not helpful for those with the disordered desire, nor is it helpful for the general public.
That whole paragraph starts with an ‘if’. And clearly as I and many others say ‘it is not disordered’ the rest of the paragraph doesnt apply.

If I was being strictly literal I would ask if by ‘disordered’ you meant some measure of entropy.
This is interesting. We need to understand there exist labels that are accurate and ones that are false. For example, the label “gay” is a false label. That is used as cover by a movement that wants to justify behaviors. The label same sex attraction accurately describes a desire or inclination that certain folks have.
Naturally, the exact opposite is true.

The label SSA is used to deny the existance of the love, respect, affection, loyalty, and deep emotional life these people experience. It focuses on one facet.

Gay reflects an identity which includes not just attraction, but experience, politics, feelings, culture and a whole set of shared experiences.
BTW, that one does not feel something does not mean such a feeling is true. This reasoning is a big part of the problem.
That statement could apply equally either way, and is confirmatory of my view.

incidently, I am assuming you mean ‘true’ and ‘True’.
 
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setter:
Deeper still in the propoganda hogwash of gay activist indoctrination. Not creating an “identity” to discriminate or segregate with, but appropriately and accurately labeling a psychological condition. By your logic, anyone with religious foundations should be segregating and creating communities for anyone with a medical/mental disorder.

Again, you seek to blame those religious based folks who offer the only truly compassionate response.
I need only point to the existance of the notice board we are posting to to demonstrate the power of labeling and self-identification.

It also demonstrates ghettoisation.

I does not escape me that many views here are far from the mainstream, and many of the questions asked here would get people laughed at on more mainstream sites. Nor does it escape me that I frequently come across references to christianity being ‘under attack’.

It’s very condensending this talk about ‘accurately labeling’ things.

On another board I used to be called a “atavistic, spook-worshipping superstitionist” and the poster uses very similar language to you to explain why this is OK; ‘accurate labelling’.
 
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fix:
Incorrect. The fundamental principle is not some personal emotion, or disordered desire. Many want it to be simply a relationship, but all relationships are not marriages.
Not until the ceremony, after that, they are. It may be a civil marriage, but it’s still marriage, albeit i a form you do not like.
 
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