Pigs

[Ghosty]

hmm…i wonder how many of those alcoholics out there would never have been alcoholics if they never had that first cup of wine. oh dear, i think that would be none of them.

Actually, alcoholism is a disorder that does not require the presence of alcohol to exist. People can indeed be alcoholics without ever being exposed to alcohol. If this wasn’t the case, then everyone who drank alcohol would eventually become an alcoholic. Only people with the alcoholic disorder develop the problematic behavior associated with alcoholism when drinking alcohol. People without this disorder will not be alcoholics.

In otherwords, yes, they’d still be alcoholics. It is not an aquired addiction.

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

Actually, alcoholism is a disorder that does not require the presence of alcohol to exist. People can indeed be alcoholics without ever being exposed to alcohol. If this wasn’t the case, then everyone who drank alcohol would eventually become an alcoholic. Only people with the alcoholic disorder develop the problematic behavior associated with alcoholism when drinking alcohol. People without this disorder will not be alcoholics.

It is true that people are predisposed to alcoholism. They have done studies where they observed adopted children who had alcoholic parents and put them in an environment with no alcholics. And the children still became alcoholics.

It is not true that people without a family history (ie genetics) of alcoholism will not become alcoholics.

A person’s risk for developing alcoholism can increase based on the person’s environment, including where and how he or she lives; family, friends, and culture; peer pressure; and even how easy it is to get alcohol.

In otherwords, yes, they’d still be alcoholics. It is not an aquired addiction.

In Islam, they wouldnt. B/c they would have never drank any alcohol to start with. In Christianity, they ofcourse would…b/c nothing prevents them from taking that first sip.

Good point! I’m going to have to use that next time I’m telling someone about alcohol and why its forbidden. (main reason is because God said so, by the way. Truly, God is the most wise)

p.s. something to ponder

“53 percent of men and women in the United States report that one or more of their close relatives have a drinking problem”

thank Allah for Islam!

 

[Ghosty]

Faith101: Your post is self-contradicting. Either one is genetically an alcoholic (not realized until being exposed to alcohol), or one is not.

If I’m allergic to peanuts, but I’ve never been around them, I will not know that I’m allergic. I do not BECOME allergic the first time I eat a peanut, however.

By your logic, we should not eat peanuts because some people can die by eating them, and are MADE allergic by eating them. In other words, your logic is very poor.

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

Faith101: Your post is self-contradicting. Either one is genetically an alcoholic (not realized until being exposed to alcohol), or one is not.

According the experts, you can become an alcholic

1. you drink alcohol AND have a genetic predisposition
2. You drink alcohol, and although you DONT have a genetic predisposition…environmental, social and personal factors come into play

look at the common denominator…the only way you can become an alcoholic is that you have to drink alcohol.

If you didnt, doesnt matter if you have bad genes or now…you would never be a victim of this self-destructive path.

If I’m allergic to peanuts, but I’ve never been around them, I will not know that I’m allergic. I do not BECOME allergic the first time I eat a peanut, however.

read above.

By your logic, we should not eat peanuts because some people can die by eating them, and are MADE allergic by eating them. In other words, your logic is very poor.

lol. again, read above. better yet…do a search on “alcoholics” and “misconception” i pasted some things i found below

Still, the misconception that these behaviors are linked to a genetic vulnerability is aired repeatedly by the media, in the absence of evidence.

The biggest misconception people have is that the problem of alcohol is alcohol dependence or alcoholism," says Maristela Monteiro, PAHO regional advisor on alcohol and substance abuse. “In terms of society, most public health problems come from acute intoxication.” In other words, she explains, most of the homicides, traffic accidents, suicides, violence, domestic violence, child abuse or mistreatment and neglect are the result of “heavy drinking occasions” by people who mostly are not alcoholics or alcohol dependent.

We can sit here and argue that alcohol is not a problem in society. But then again, who would we be fooling.

edit: i just keep finding more and more stuff

The article notes that in the United States, alcohol is a factor in 25 per cent of deaths among people aged 15 to 29. Its direct costs to the U.S. health care system reach some $19 billion and to the U.S. economy as a whole, as much as $148 billion

 

[Ghosty]

The biggest misconception people have is that the problem of alcohol is alcohol dependence or alcoholism," says Maristela Monteiro, PAHO regional advisor on alcohol and substance abuse. “In terms of society, most public health problems come from acute intoxication.” In other words, she explains, most of the homicides, traffic accidents, suicides, violence, domestic violence, child abuse or mistreatment and neglect are the result of “heavy drinking occasions” by people who mostly are not alcoholics or alcohol dependent.

Yes, heavy drinking occaisions and acute intoxication lead to these incidents, not drinking alcohol. I agree completely. Incidently, both Judaism and Christianity forbid acute intoxication and heavy drinking.

The Scriptures also say, however:

28 May God give you of heaven's dew 
   and of earth's richness— 
   **an abundance of grain and new wine.** *Genesis 27:28*

Deuteronomy 7:13
He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land—your grain, new wine and oil—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you.

14 He makes grass grow for the cattle, 
   and plants for man to cultivate— 
   bringing forth food from the earth:     15 wine that gladdens the heart of man, 
   oil to make his face shine, 
   and bread that sustains his heart. *Psalm 104:14-15*



9 Honor the LORD with your wealth, 
   with the firstfruits of all your crops;     10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing, 
   and your vats will brim over with new wine. *Proverbs 3:9-10*

And many, many more. Wine is a gift from God for the gladdening of the hearts of humans. That is Scripture.

 

[Eden]

Wait a minute! This article was about pigs but now it’s about alcohol. What’s that all about? OK, I’ll get involved. In moderation, alcohol, specifically wine, has health benefits. Here are some examples:

Drinking wine appears to be good for the lungs, a University at Buffalo study has shown, and in this case, the primary credit goes to white wine rather than red. Source: sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020521072618.htm

When the evidence came to light that wine, especially red wine, has so many benefits for long-term physical health that some researchers have asserted it is more detrimental to your health to not drink it, the Europeans shrugged and the Americans gasped.

The French consume about 30% more fat than Americans in the form of cheeses, butter and meat. However, the French have far lower cholesterol levels than Americans and a startlingly 40% fewer heart attacks. The researchers found the moderate and daily consumption of red wine was the missing link in the American diet. Source: nutrition.about.com/od/guestarticles/a/healthandwine.htm

A large study of about 88,000 people conducted over a period of ten years found that moderate drinkers were about 27% less likely to die during the period than were either abstainers or heavy drinkers. This superior longevity was largely due to a reduction of such diseases as coronary heart disease, cancer, and respiratory diseases. Source: health.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1084415,prtpage-1.cms

 

[Digitonomy]

Do Muslims feel that non-Muslims should also abstain from pork? Or do they feel that it is perfectly acceptable for Christians to eat pork or drink alcohol (although it would be better if they became Muslim and then followed the rules of Islam)?

Wait a minute! This article was about pigs but now it’s about alcohol. What’s that all about?

There are many ways to prepare pork that go well with beer or wine. Some even use wine in the recipe.

 

[Ghosty]

There are many ways to prepare pork that go well with beer or wine. Some even use wine in the recipe.

Mmmmm, pork-chops and beer…

I’m hungry now

 

[Digitonomy]

Where are Faith101 and Eetaq when you need them? I’m still curious,

Do Muslims feel that non-Muslims should also abstain from pork? Or do they feel that it is perfectly acceptable for Christians to eat pork or drink alcohol (although it would be better if they became Muslim and then followed the rules of Islam)?

 

[Faith101]

Digitonomy:

Do Muslims feel that non-Muslims should also abstain from pork? Or do they feel that it is perfectly acceptable for Christians to eat pork or drink alcohol (although it would be better if they became Muslim and then followed the rules of Islam)?

There are many ways to prepare pork that go well with beer or wine. Some even use wine in the recipe.

I would prefer, like you said, for Christians to recognize the final revelation of God…and obey His commandements.

however, if they choose to drink…than so be it…it doesnt really harm me either way

 

[Faith101]

Digitonomy:

Where are Faith101 and Eetaq when you need them? I’m still curious,

Do Muslims feel that non-Muslims should also abstain from pork? Or do they feel that it is perfectly acceptable for Christians to eat pork or drink alcohol (although it would be better if they became Muslim and then followed the rules of Islam)?

i already answered…

 

[Digitonomy]

Faith101:

I would prefer, like you said, for Christians to recognize the final revelation of God…and obey His commandements.

however, if they choose to drink…than so be it…it doesnt really harm me either way

You’re kind of dodging the question.

Let me give some examples from Judaism, since the amalgam of OT and NT law can be somewhat complex for a Christian perspective on these.

A Jew is required to abstain from pork. A Jew is required to keep the Sabbath holy. Etc. However, these rules are specific to Jews. They do not care if non-Jews keep them, and will not attempt to enforce them. In fact, Gentiles are sometimes employed in Jewish businesses because they can work on the Sabbath.

On the other hand, the prohibition against cannibalism is a law of God which applies to everyone. If it is in his power, a Jew must try to prevent it from occurring. Even if the act is between consenting individuals. In some cases it’s not reasonable to try to stop it. But a Jew would still disapprove of those violating God’s law.

I am curious which situation more closely resembles the Muslim approach to pork, alcohol, and similar issues. If a Christian family is eating pork, is it something accepted as perfectly OK, or something merely tolerated because it’s not reasonable to think it could be stopped? Is it an obligation (or even meritorious) to stop such pork consumption if it were possible? For instance, would it be a good deed if you talked the head of the parish picnic into buying veggie dogs (or even kosher beef dogs) rather than the usual pork-based products?

 

[Mimi]

Eden:

Wait a minute! This article was about pigs but now it’s about alcohol. What’s that all about? OK, I’ll get involved. In moderation, alcohol, specifically wine, has health benefits. Here are some examples:

Drinking wine appears to be good for the lungs, a University at Buffalo study has shown, and in this case, the primary credit goes to white wine rather than red. Source: sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020521072618.htm

When the evidence came to light that wine, especially red wine, has so many benefits for long-term physical health that some researchers have asserted it is more detrimental to your health to not drink it, the Europeans shrugged and the Americans gasped.

The French consume about 30% more fat than Americans in the form of cheeses, butter and meat. However, the French have far lower cholesterol levels than Americans and a startlingly 40% fewer heart attacks. The researchers found the moderate and daily consumption of red wine was the missing link in the American diet. Source: nutrition.about.com/od/guestarticles/a/healthandwine.htm

[small snip]

Drinking even one glass of red wine gives me a headache!

Supposedly, grape juice will give the same benefits as red wine.

Isn’t “new wine” low or no alcohol? It seems to me that wine needs some time for the fermentation process to produce the alcoholic content. Thus, drinking new wine would not make a person drunk.

Peace,
Mimi

 

[onestop]

But Mimi, the main reason people drink beer or wine is because they want to feel high too. And that’s the reason why Allah prohibits us to drink beers in Islam, because in Islam we are prohibited to get drunk or feel high. I don’t know about Christian though.

 

[Ghosty]

But Mimi, the main reason people drink beer or wine is because they want to feel high too. And that’s the reason why Allah prohibits us to drink beers in Islam, because in Islam we are prohibited to get drunk or feel high. I don’t know about Christian though.

There is a huge difference between feeling altered, and losing rational thought. Christians and Jews are prohibited from drinking to the point of losing rational self-control, but feeling altered is actually encouraged at least in Judaism. Alcohol is for relaxing and gladdening the heart for celebration, according to Scripture, and using it for those purposes is not only permissable, but holy in some instances.

 

[Eetaq]

But shouldnt we feel relaxed and glad naturaly, without the aid of alcohol, if we have true faith?

Shouldnt the knowledge of Gods love and protection be enough to make you feel content and ever so happy?

 

[Faith101]

Digitonomy:

You’re kind of dodging the question.

Let me give some examples from Judaism, since the amalgam of OT and NT law can be somewhat complex for a Christian perspective on these.

A Jew is required to abstain from pork. A Jew is required to keep the Sabbath holy. Etc. However, these rules are specific to Jews. They do not care if non-Jews keep them, and will not attempt to enforce them. In fact, Gentiles are sometimes employed in Jewish businesses because they can work on the Sabbath.

On the other hand, the prohibition against cannibalism is a law of God which applies to everyone. If it is in his power, a Jew must try to prevent it from occurring. Even if the act is between consenting individuals. In some cases it’s not reasonable to try to stop it. But a Jew would still disapprove of those violating God’s law.

I am curious which situation more closely resembles the Muslim approach to pork, alcohol, and similar issues. If a Christian family is eating pork, is it something accepted as perfectly OK, or something merely tolerated because it’s not reasonable to think it could be stopped? Is it an obligation (or even meritorious) to stop such pork consumption if it were possible? For instance, would it be a good deed if you talked the head of the parish picnic into buying veggie dogs (or even kosher beef dogs) rather than the usual pork-based products?

I understand what you are saying. However, Muslims believe Islam was sent for all of mankind. Just because a person has not yet submitted to the will of God, doesnt mean its ok for them to disregard an order of God. This is the way i look at it…and if i’m wrong, i hope another Muslim can correct me.

I am not too concerned with the little things people of other religions do (eating pork, etc)…what i am concerned with is their rejection of the oneness of God or their giving divine power to other than God.

To actively try to replace pork with beef in hotdogs so Christians would eat less pork…would be like trying to prohibit one person from cutting down a tree…while leaving another to blow up the whole forest. Minute details. I’d rather concentrate my time on introducing people to the simplicity of the Oneness of God.

in short…what God has made forbidden…is forbidden for everyone…those who recognize the law and those who do not. In terms of me actively going around telling people to stop eating pork…again its the tree ( maybe even just a leaf) in the forest

 

[Fox]

If you abuse your body you will answer to God in some way, for we are God’s stewards of His creation. God created our bodies and we should act as such and watch what we eat and consume. To try not to maximise what God has given you is to folly. A normal person should be physically fit, mentally sharp, and spiritually strong.

Side note-pigs are fithy animals that will eat its own feces amongst other unsavoury things, why would you want to eat such a animal? I know about pigs because I have seen them and been with them a lot. Pigs are the garbage disposals, along with crustaceans, of the animal kingdom.

 

[Digitonomy]

Faith101:

Just because a person has not yet submitted to the will of God, doesnt mean its ok for them to disregard an order of God. This is the way i look at it…and if i’m wrong, i hope another Muslim can correct me.

Thanks for the answer.

Fox:

A normal person should be physically fit, mentally sharp, and spiritually strong.

Similar to the Boy Scout law: “…physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.”

Side note-pigs are fithy animals that will eat its own feces amongst other unsavoury things, why would you want to eat such a animal?

Pigs are not the only animals to exhibit coprophagia. However, I don’t think that is especially common in the wild. Nowadays, most hogs are raised in a rather industrial fashion, in massive barns, and I don’t know that feces are part of the diet.

 

[Ghosty]

But shouldnt we feel relaxed and glad naturaly, without the aid of alcohol, if we have true faith?

Shouldnt the knowledge of Gods love and protection be enough to make you feel content and ever so happy?

Of course, but that’s a false response for a number of reasons. First, one could turn that on its head and say that you should feel such things without even having to pray. You may think that’s incorrect, since drinking alcohol is not commanded like praying, but you’d be wrong. Consuming alcohol, at least in certain circumstances is DEFINATELY commanded by God. The fact that Muslims deny this shows how far they stray from Scripture.

Second, just because one can be happy without alcohol, through simple faith, doesn’t mean that alcohol is bad. By that logic, we should play games, enjoy the sunshine, enjoy the company of others, ect. Yes, we should be made happy through true Faith, but that happiness spills over into a joy in all aspects of life that are not forbidden by God. God made the world, and it was good. We are not bad by loving the world that God Himself created good, out of love.