Plea to Catholics of a Liberal Persuasion

[Wellok]

There are Catholic insurance companies which do not covera morally evil things. Under the HHS mandate, of course, these insurance companies must either reject their religion, or go out of business.

There are Catholic institutions which self insure. They provide morally acceptable coverage.
Under the HHS mandate, they will have to provide coverage for things which violate their religion, or they can reject their religion, or they can cancel insurance coverage and pay a fine for practicing their religion.

There are Catholic businessmen who now provide morally acceptable coverage. Under the HHS mandate, they will have to violate their religion by providing morally unacceptable coverage, or cancel all coverage and pay a fine for practicing their religion, or go out of business.

Is it still America?

But what about me as an individual. I guess I am partially morally culpable for paying into my own program.

I work a union job and participate in that health care program. This program pays for vasectomies and IVF.

My wife has what would be a “preexisting” condition if I switched to an independent insurer. Which she would either be denied or I would have to pay exorbitant rates to have her covered.

I guess I have no recourse. :imsorry:

 

[JimG]

But what about me as an individual. I guess I am partially morally culpable for paying into my own program.

I work a union job and participate in that health care program. This program pays for vasectomies and IVF.

My wife has what would be a “preexisting” condition if I switched to an independent insurer. Which she would either be denied or I would have to pay exorbitant rates to have her covered.

I guess I have no recourse. :imsorry:

You may not have any recourse. Unlike what you might hear from the administration, there is no problem finding policies which cover contraception, sterilization, and abortion inducing drugs, even abortion. Those policies already exist. They are everywhere. As an employee, you may have no choice in the matter.

But an employer has a choice, or at least the employer did, until now. Now the administration is forcing the employer to choose a policy which covers these morally unacceptable items.

 

[Wellok]

You may not have any recourse. Unlike what you might hear from the administration, there is no problem finding policies which cover contraception, sterilization, and abortion inducing drugs, even abortion. Those policies already exist. They are everywhere. As an employee, you may have no choice in the matter.

But an employer has a choice, or at least the employer did, until now. Now the administration is forcing the employer to choose a policy which covers these morally unacceptable items.

I hadn’t honestly given much thought to what other people did with their healthcare until this HHS happened. I knew about some things I didn’t agree with but I didn’t think how I was contributing to it.

Why should I have to contribute to some other persons In Vetro Fertilization if I find it sinful and I feel it is causing me to sin by participating in my plan?

I am very upset now. I am being forced to sin by my circumstances.

 

[Tigg]

I hadn’t honestly given much thought to what other people did with their healthcare until this HHS happened. I knew about some things I didn’t agree with but I didn’t think how I was contributing to it.

Why should I have to contribute to some other persons In Vetro Fertilization if I find it sinful and I feel it is causing me to sin by participating in my plan?

I am very upset now. I am being forced to sin by my circumstances.

Well, we always have a choice, albeit an unpleasant one, but now you know why the bishops have said in unison, we cannot, we will not, obey this UN-just law.

 

[JimG]

I hadn’t honestly given much thought to what other people did with their healthcare until this HHS happened. I knew about some things I didn’t agree with but I didn’t think how I was contributing to it.

Why should I have to contribute to some other persons In Vetro Fertilization if I find it sinful and I feel it is causing me to sin by participating in my plan?

I am very upset now. I am being forced to sin by my circumstances.

If you are employed by an employer whose policy covers such things, you can ask the employer to find a more acceptable insurance policy. You can ask that the employer find a policy which excludes in vitro fertilization, contraception, abortion, and abortion inducing drugs. Unfortunately, if the HHS mandate is allowed to stand, your insuror will be required by the government to include some morally objectionable items. Right now, you might be able to affect them by persuasion. But when morally objectionable items are required by law, they will be unwilling to break the law and pay the fine.

 

[Wellok]

If you are employed by an employer whose policy covers such things, you can ask the employer to find a more acceptable insurance policy. You can ask that the employer find a policy which excludes in vitro fertilization, contraception, abortion, and abortion inducing drugs. Unfortunately, if the HHS mandate is allowed to stand, your insuror will be required by the government to include some morally objectionable items. Right now, you might be able to affect them by persuasion. But when morally objectionable items are required by law, they will be unwilling to break the law and pay the fine.

It’s a nationwide union. I guess I can speak to my rep.

 

[JimG]

It’s a nationwide union. I guess I can speak to my rep.

It would be great to speak to your union rep. But be prepared to be yelled at and marginalized.

 

[iloveangels]

It would be great to speak to your union rep. But be prepared to be yelled at and marginalized.

More effective. Write or call your senators and representatives in Congress.

**There is a bill called the Respect for Rights of Conscience Act 2011. It’s been entered into the proceedings at both the Senate and the House.

It’s House Resolution 1179 and Senate Bill 1467. Call or write your representatives and tell them you want it passed. You can email them, write them a letter or call them on the phone.

You can find the name of your representative AND write to him on all one page here:
writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Find the name of your senator AND write to him on all on one page here:
senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm**

 

[estesbob]

You don’t have to drop your insurance. No one is requiring us to drop our insurance policies, and I know I’m not going to drop mine. I like my insurance

I am being forced to drop coverage for my employees. Ive already told them I was doing it and why

 

[JimG]

I am being forced to drop coverage for my employees. Ive already told them I was doing it and why

The amazing thing is that HHS could probably have gotten by with the mandate without much objection from Catholics, had they simply give a more reasonable exemption to Catholic organizations like diocesan offices, hospitals, and charities, and nuns who serve the poor–even though Catholic employers like you would still be left hanging out to dry!

But this administration has taken such a hard line stance, which is enforced by its allies such as PP, NOW, and various feminist groups, that it caused an immediate backlash, when a wider religious exemption might have saved it some trouble. It just goes to show the extent of the leftist ideology operating here.

Now that the bishops have taken a longer look it at the issue, they do seem to be somewhat concerned about the religious liberty of individual employers.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The amazing thing is that HHS could probably have gotten by with the mandate without much objection from Catholics, had they simply give a more reasonable exemption to Catholic organizations like diocesan offices, hospitals, and charities, and nuns who serve the poor–even though Catholic employers like you would still be left hanging out to dry!

But this administration has taken such a hard line stance, which is enforced by its allies such as PP, NOW, and various feminist groups, that it caused an immediate backlash, when a wider religious exemption might have saved it some trouble. It just goes to show the extent of the leftist ideology operating here.

Now that the bishops have taken a longer look it at the issue, they do seem to be somewhat concerned about the religious liberty of individual employers.

Jim, you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Someday we may thank Obama for what he has done.

It’s wonderful having the bishops in the foxholes with us, even if it was Obama who forced them there.

As each day goes by I am less and less concerned that the bishops will make a separate peace with the administration.

It reminds me of Winston Churchill who reported that he never slept better than after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

 

[Julia_Mae]

What is it that you don’t understand about the meaning of intent. .

When you calculate within 3% accuracy how many civilians will be killed in your bombing raid and do it anyway, that’s intent. You don’t know what’s in the heart and mind of a woman who takes the Pill or had an abortion. You have no way whatsoever to judge. But you do know that killing the innocent is part of “the cost of war” and is cold-bloodedly calculated and then accomplished. In the name of… ???

What is it you don’t understand about “love one another?”

 

[Julia_Mae]

They sure do, one’s own subjective truth is called moral relativism, which is why Catholics rely upon the Church to keep them in line with sound theological and revealed truth.

Fine for Catholics. Not for Catholics to impose upon everyone else.

 

[Julia_Mae]

We have been following the liberal path since LBJ and are in worse shape than we were before. Common sense would dictate it is time to try something new. This is not working.

You mean like a benevolent Catholic dictator?

 

[Julia_Mae]

According to the Church, abortion is never justified regardless of what you or others might think. You are attempting to make one of the five non-negotiables of the Church an equivalent to war.

You know, the Church existed for 2000 years before someone made up a list of these “five non-negotiables.”

Jesus gave us the non-negotiables. Can you recall them without having to look them up?

 

[JimG]

Fine for Catholics. Not for Catholics to impose upon everyone else.

Yes, and not for the government to impose on Catholics. Not on Catholic institutions. Not on Catholic employers. How about if the government just does not interfere with the Church and Church organizations telling it that it must provide morally objectionable insurance coverage?

It didn’t seem to be a necessity until this administration.

 

[iloveangels]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.**

Abortion by any means is not negotiable. It never has been negotiable.

 

[iloveangels]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception**: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

Abortion by any means is not negotiable. It never has been negotiable.

This doesn’t mean that you have to chase people who aren’t Catholic down, sit on them and yell in their ear. You don’t have the right to run over them, any more than they have the right to run over you.

It does mean that if asked for the truth, you must not lie. It also means that the life of a Catholic MUST be ordered according to these laws. No matter what anyone else might claim, according to the Catholic Church, this is the actual and unchanging truth for all of mankind whether they care to recognize it or not.

 

[Tigg]

The amazing thing is that HHS could probably have gotten by with the mandate without much objection from Catholics, had they simply give a more reasonable exemption to Catholic organizations like diocesan offices, hospitals, and charities, and nuns who serve the poor–even though Catholic employers like you would still be left hanging out to dry!

But this administration has taken such a hard line stance, which is enforced by its allies such as PP, NOW, and various feminist groups, that it caused an immediate backlash, when a wider religious exemption might have saved it some trouble. It just goes to show the extent of the leftist ideology operating here.

Now that the bishops have taken a longer look it at the issue, they do seem to be somewhat concerned about the religious liberty of individual employers.

They were well aware of the probable backlash - isn’t this typical Alinskyian tactics? They mean to bring the Church DOWN and sadly many Catholics will help.

 

[JimG]

They were well aware of the probable backlash - isn’t this typical Alinskyian tactics? They mean to bring the Church DOWN and sadly many Catholics will help.

Sadly, I think you are right. There was no need whatever to pick a fight with the Catholic Church. Contraception is so widely available as to be a non-issue. I think the president and his allies wanted this fight with the Catholic Church. It’s a fight they believe they can win. It comes down to to telling the Church: ‘Your doctrine is wrong. Our doctrine is right. Now, you must follow OUR doctrine. Give it up.’