Please explain differences in Masses

[bear06]

jimmy:

Yes he is. If you want a latin mass, you might as well go all the way with the tlm rather than the NO in latin. Its pointless to do the NO in latin.

If you are correct about Katolik’s statement then I’d have to say he’s wrong. The majority of well educated people would probably follow Fr. Fessio’s line of thinking. Here’s a little quote on how he feels about the “Mass of Vatican II” as he calls it.

But I am going to insist on my right as a Catholic and as priest to celebrate the liturgy according to the Council, according to the presently approved liturgical books, to celebrate a form of the Mass that therefore needs no special permission — and which in fact cannot be prohibited — what I’ve called “the Mass of Vatican II.”

If you follow Fr. Fessio’s publications, you’d know he has a long list of well educated followers.

 

[bear06]

jimmy:

God is higher than you, and you should acknowledge it.

Have you ever been to a tlm? If not, then how can you criticize it?

I have been to a tlm and I’ve stated my reasons for not appreciating it as much as the Paulin Mass. I have 5 children. At mass we have to wrestle with the 20 mos old which usually sends us out to the vestibule (no crying room) with the other parents of 20 mos. olds. During a low mass there is virtually no way to know what the heck is happening inside since there’s no visual, no audible prayers in the low mass and often it’s impossible to keep track of the bells and a 20 mos. old. I don’t even want to miss the miracle of the consecration - EVER so I probably won’t be attending the Tridentine again until my youngest can sit still like the rest of them. I have a perfectly reverent Pauline Mass, full of Gregorian Chant (which my children provide once a month) and latin. What’s more important is that I know exactly when the consecration occurs everytime. I don’t have a problem with people who appreciate the TLM but it certainly is not conducive to the faith of everyone. I thank God for the Pauline Mass. For me it comes down to the fact that I actually, most times, miss Mass when I attend a Tridentine and so do most of the other young parents out in the vestibule with me. Sorry, it’s just one Sacrifice that I don’t think people should miss out on because they think one Mass is more beautiful than another.

 

[jimmy]

bear06:

If you are correct about Katolik’s statement then I’d have to say he’s wrong. The majority of well educated people would probably follow Fr. Fessio’s line of thinking. Here’s a little quote on how he feels about the “Mass of Vatican II” as he calls it.

If you follow Fr. Fessio’s publications, you’d know he has a long list of well educated followers.

I waws refering to your post to Miseriecordie. There is no reason why Katolik would be wrong.

I have never heard of Fr. Fessio. I am not saying that people should be restricted in saying the NO mass. I just think that the TLM should have the same respect and should be allowed freely. Every preist should be allowed to say the TLM.

 

[bear06]

misericordie:

Yes, the SSPX are in schism: but their sacraments are valid: even Cardinal Ratzinger has said so, they are valid but NOT licit, there is a different amy.

This is not entirely true. Confessions and marriages are not valid since the SSPX do not have faculties to do them. The only time they are granted “emergency” faculties is for confession if a person is in danger of death. The rest of the sacraments are valid but illicit.

 

[bear06]

The SSPX seems to be the only religious group that can really rile up the Catholic people, that I don’t understand it.

The reason is that they are posing as being in union with Rome. You don’t get the same from the protestants and the orthodox.

I just don’t see how they are supposedly hurting the church’s mission, by providing some spirituality and sacraments for those oldtime Catholics who would be otherwise sitting at home because they just don’t feel they get any spirituality out of the English mass.

They are hurting the Church by trying to legitimize disobedience. If we had a problem with orders who were trying to provide for those attached to the Tridentine then we would have a problem with FSSP, which we don’t.

The SSPX isn’t hurting anyone,they are just exercising their religious freedom, and that should be respected.

Gee, how many liberal groups say exactly the same thing. Disobedience is disobedience.

 

[bear06]

There is no reason why Katolik would be wrong.

Sorry, that was what I was referring to. I just got my sparring partners names mixed up.

I have never heard of Fr. Fessio.

Whhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttttttttttttttttt???
Sorry, that’s just kind of shocking. I might suggest you read up on him.

I am not saying that people should be restricted in saying the NO mass. I just think that the TLM should have the same respect and should be allowed freely. Every preist should be allowed to say the TLM.

As far as I know, every priest is allowed to say the TLM, just not necessarily for the public. I agree that the TLM should be generously allowed .That doesn’t mean I think that I believe a parish with 2 people interested should be forced to provide one. I for one have the same respect for the TLM as the Pauline Mass, however, I don’t think that we all need to have an preference for both. I don’t prefer it for the reason I stated above and for the fact that our particular TLM Masses attract many schismatics who are just there because the nearest SSPX chapel is miles away. There are those who just prefer the Tridentine but there are probably more that reject Vatican II and the Pope.

 

[bear06]

Those in “schism” are the SSPX priests and bishops not the laity

.

Ecclesia Dei warns the laity of the dangers of attending the SSPX chapels and falling into schism.

the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.(

 

[jimmy]

bear06:

Sorry, that was what I was referring to. I just got my sparring partners names mixed up.

Whhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttttttttttttttttt???
Sorry, that’s just kind of shocking. I might suggest you read up on him.

As far as I know, every priest is allowed to say the TLM, just not necessarily for the public. I agree that the TLM should be generously allowed .That doesn’t mean I think that I believe a parish with 2 people interested should be forced to provide one. I for one have the same respect for the TLM as the Pauline Mass, however, I don’t think that we all need to have an preference for both. I don’t prefer it for the reason I stated above and for the fact that our particular TLM Masses attract many schismatics who are just there because the nearest SSPX chapel is miles away. There are those who just prefer the Tridentine but there are probably more that reject Vatican II and the Pope.

What would you say miseriecordie is wrong about?

Maybe I will read about him.

I don’t know how many people are SSPX vrs. no schism who prefer tlm. But I think that most of those on this forum who prefer the tlm, also accept VII and they are not in schism.

 

[AmyS]

bear06:

This is not entirely true. Confessions and marriages are not valid since the SSPX do not have faculties to do them. The only time they are granted “emergency” faculties is for confession if a person is in danger of death. The rest of the sacraments are valid but illicit.

I talked to my priest about this quite a bit, researched and studied because I wanted to know what my best friend was getting herself into… I wanted to make sure she knew the facts. From what my priest said her son’s first communion wasn’t valid either. It is a big ? for me…

 

[AmyS]

jimmy:

I don’t know how many people are SSPX vrs. no schism who prefer tlm. But I think that most of those on this forum who prefer the tlm, also accept VII and they are not in schism.

There is a TLM mass not too much farther than the SSPX mass my friend goes to. I try to talk her into going to that Mass it is beautiful. She says her father-in-law has gone there before, he is the one who is so vocal about the Church and all VII following churches going to hell. The problem is it is a church that is in communion with the Church and the whole VII thing. When you go into this TLM church you will often find literature left by SSPX (who does that sound like) trying to guide parishoners their way. I don’t know if all the parishoners who go to SSPX masses are that way, I tend to believe a lot are like my friend who don’t mean any harm.

I do believe the people posting who prefer TLM do accept VII… And, probably frown at people becoming schismatic.

 

[AmyS]

bear06:

The reason is that they are posing as being in union with Rome. You don’t get the same from the protestants and the orthodox.

They are hurting the Church by trying to legitimize disobedience. If we had a problem with orders who were trying to provide for those attached to the Tridentine then we would have a problem with FSSP, which we don’t.

Gee, how many liberal groups say exactly the same thing. Disobedience is disobedience.

Thank you…

 

[Pandora]

Bear the average family size in my Parish is about 6-8 and we have 2 families of 10 and gowing. I have never had a hard time following a low Mass. Though this week the the 2 year old boy in the pew by me hopped the divider and came over to pat my sweater during the homily and stayed the rest of Mass. His father looked mortified. After Mass I told his Dad it was not the first time I was patted by a little child. I have 72 first cousins and I won’t get into second cousins. Granted this boy has more Joy De Vivre than most but who couldn’t love a little child even if they get a bit fussy. He really loved my soft sweater with the velvet bottons. Because we have so many large families I don’t think many of us have a problem with a squirming child or even a patting child . Who doesn’t love children? Certainly not God!
And why oh why do these threads always break down to pitched battles?
Kathy

 

[Charlemagne]

Contarini:

I attended a Tridentine Mass yesterday for the second time in my life (the other was an SSPX Mass in Raleigh, NC seven years ago). I suppose “reverent” is the right word, inasmuch as the priest hardly said a word that was audible by the congregation for large parts of the Mass, and the congregation said practically nothing at all. Even when the priest is supposed to ask the people to pray with him that the sacrifice may be acceptable (“Orate fratres”) he didn’t even turn around and he said nothing at all that was audible from where I was. So “beautiful” is not a word I could possibly use about this Mass. I don’t understand the traditionalists who rave about the glory of the Traditional Mass. Sheer silence watching the back of the priest may have an austere Zen-like beauty of its own, I suppose.

Yes, I know this was a Low Mass and a High Mass would be very different. But I don’t understand what is lost by the people saying the responses, or by the priest saying at least parts of the Mass in a voice audible by the people.

In Christ,

Edwin

I have been told that the Missal of 1962 contains a Dialog Mass (i.e., a Mass where the Priest speaks loudly enough to be heard and the people answer). Can anyone verify whether or not this is true?

 

[AmyS]

Pandora:

Bear the average family size in my Parish is about 6-8 and we have 2 families of 10 and gowing. I have never had a hard time following a low Mass. Though this week the the 2 year old boy in the pew by me hopped the divider and came over to pat my sweater during the homily and stayed the rest of Mass. His father looked mortified. After Mass I told his Dad it was not the first time I was patted by a little child. I have 72 first cousins and I won’t get into second cousins. Granted this boy has more Joy De Vivre than most but who couldn’t love a little child even if they get a bit fussy. He really loved my soft sweater with the velvet bottons. Because we have so many large families I don’t think many of us have a problem with a squirming child or even a patting child . Who doesn’t love children? Certainly not God!
And why oh why do these threads always break down to pitched battles?
Kathy

What a great story… When you get into parishes like that you pretty much become a big family too. Children keep us honest, and I think bring us closer to God.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Charlemagne:

I have been told that the Missal of 1962 contains a Dialog Mass (i.e., a Mass where the Priest speaks loudly enough to be heard and the people answer). Can anyone verify whether or not this is true?

Charlemagne,

I don’t recollect any longer which Missal in particular has the Dialogue Mass, but the date would be about right for it to be 1962. The Dialogue Mass was routinely used in the 1960s, both in Latin and later in English.

Many years,

Neil

 

[bear06]

AmyS:

I talked to my priest about this quite a bit, researched and studied because I wanted to know what my best friend was getting herself into… I wanted to make sure she knew the facts. From what my priest said her son’s first communion wasn’t valid either. It is a big ? for me…

I don’t think this is correct. It might be illicit but I don’t think it’s invalid. Now, one might argue that the child didn’t make his First Confession first, however, this also still happens in some diocese and I don’t think I’ve heard that this made the First Communions invalid. The SSPX masses are illicit, not invalid, so this means that their Eucharist is also valid.

 

[bear06]

Pandora:

Bear the average family size in my Parish is about 6-8 and we have 2 families of 10 and gowing. I have never had a hard time following a low Mass. Though this week the the 2 year old boy in the pew by me hopped the divider and came over to pat my sweater during the homily and stayed the rest of Mass. His father looked mortified. After Mass I told his Dad it was not the first time I was patted by a little child. I have 72 first cousins and I won’t get into second cousins. Granted this boy has more Joy De Vivre than most but who couldn’t love a little child even if they get a bit fussy. He really loved my soft sweater with the velvet bottons. Because we have so many large families I don’t think many of us have a problem with a squirming child or even a patting child . Who doesn’t love children? Certainly not God!
And why oh why do these threads always break down to pitched battles?
Kathy

Most of the families at the Pauline mass I am attending right now also have 6+ kids (soon to be myself included!). I agree that a well said mass, normative or Tridentine attracts those faithful to the teachings of the Church which usually means big families. You don’t, however, have to go to a TLM to find this.

As far as kids’ behaviors go…It doesn’t sound like you have small ones right now. They are a distraction, joyful yes, but a distraction. I don’t think that many parents of 20 mos. olds have perfect children who do not distract them. Like I said, when I’ve gone to the TLM, there have been many of us parents of young out in the vestibule, not just me. When we are out there it is very hard, if not impossible, to follow the low mass and it’s silent prayers with no visual. Doesn’t make it evil. It’s just a reality. I’m just not willing to miss the Consecration.

 

[bear06]

Irish Melkite:

Charlemagne,

I don’t recollect any longer which Missal in particular has the Dialogue Mass, but the date would be about right for it to be 1962. The Dialogue Mass was routinely used in the 1960s, both in Latin and later in English.

Many years,

Neil

I think Charlemagne might be talking about the Low and High masses? A High Mass has more audible prayers and is easier to follow.

 

[TLM_Altar_Boy]

Charlemagne:

I have been told that the Missal of 1962 contains a Dialog Mass (i.e., a Mass where the Priest speaks loudly enough to be heard and the people answer). Can anyone verify whether or not this is true?

The only parts of Low Mass of any length which are spoken in a whisper are the Canon (the “Te Igitur” to the Minor Elevation, “Per ipsum…”) and the prayers before the priest’s Communion. I would say that that is 8-10 minutes total out of the entire Mass, if that much. EDIT: The Offertory is also prayed silently. It is an additional 2-3 minutes long.

There are a couple different types of Dialogue Masses, but they can basically be lumped into two categories. In the first, the people make all the responses with the altar boys except the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. In the second, the people also join with the priest in saying certain prayers (Lamb of God, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, and sometimes the Lord’s Prayer).

Hope that helps some.

 

[misericordie]

Though I love father Fessio’s writings and admire him greatly, I can understand he does not want any more persecution especially from his own Jesuit order, hence I understand why he would verbally express that about the mass. However, there is a fellow Jesuit who has affiliation with the Ignatius faith and Life series books, and who recently I attended his Tridentine Latin Mass: The great Father Kenneth Baker, S.J. he offers the TLM at Saint Agnes here in Manhattan on most Sundays: the INDULT Mass.