Please explain the Catholic understanding of "perseverance of the saints"

[PSUCath]

I actually asked this in another thread about 1 Corinthians 1:8 but it quickly digressed into almost 200 replies and side topics which left me more confused than when I started, so I figured I’d refine my question if that’s ok.

I want to better understand how Catholics view the “perseverance of the saints” doctrine. My Evangelical friends interpret this as meaning, “when God saves us, he won’t let us go, no matter how badly we slip up.” In their view, nothing can take away your salvation, not mortal sins, or even apostasy. For those who do lose their salvation, they claim that that person never had it in the first place. For example, if a born-again Christian commits an unrepentant mortal sin, he wouldn’t have lost his salvation because he was never truly saved in the first place. This sounds like a “no true Scotsman” fallacy to me, and I know this can’t be true because St. Paul taught salvation can be lost (see Rom. 11:20, 1 Cor 10:12), the author of Hebrews taught salvation can be lost (see Heb. 6:4-6, 10:32), even Jesus himself taught that salvation could be lost (see Parable of the Unrepentant Servant, the Vine and the Branches).

This being said, they bring up several verses that make me scratch my head. For example, in my original post I asked about 1 Cor. 1:8 (“He will also keep you firm to the end”). Another verse was from the OT, in Jeremiah 32:40, which reads “I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.” These verses seems to suggest that a person who is in Christ cannot abandon him because God would not allow him to.

I understand that within Catholicism, there are Thomists and Molinists who each have their own legitimate interpretations of how free will cooperates with divine sovereignty. I am not at the point of knowing whether I am a Thomist or Molinist, but my biggest takeaway is this: in Catholicism, we recognize that God gives us the free will to cooperate with his divine plan. God’s grace is not a free ride straight to heaven, but rather a free ticket on the vehicle to get there. We must cooperate with God’s grace to persevere to the end. My biggest questions are these:

• Based on 1 Cor. 1:8 and Jer. 32:40, is it true that God retains people who he saves in order to not allow them to leave him?
• If I am predestined to be blameless in the eyes of God, do I have the ability to resist this grace?
• Are the “elect” a set of people who will, without a doubt, go to heaven?
• Can a member of the elect lose his salvation?
• If we have free will, does this mean we can choose to be in the elect?

Thank you very much! God bless!

 

[Vico]

…

Catholic Encyclopedia

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:

a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[po18guy]

The “doctrine” was made up out of whole cloth by reformer Jean Cauvin. It has no basis in scripture or tradition.

 

[Mintaka]

1 Cor. 1:8 – The key to this is the next verse, where Paul says that “God” is “faithful.”

The word being translated in 8 as “confirm,” “sustain,” “keep you strong,” etc. is “bebaiosei,” from the root “bebaiou”. It’s future tense indicative active, 3rd person singular.

The meaning of the verb can be translated as “to guarantee, or to make good on an agreement” which is maybe how some people are taking it. But it is usually used as “establish,” like if I were your dad setting you up in a business, or “secure as a possession,” like him setting you up with a landholding and signing it over to you, You can also use it in phrases like “establish yourself in business” or “secure your own ground in an argument.” Or in a court case about land ownership, your witnesses and the previous owner would come and swear it was yours, and “confirm your ownership.”

I don’t really see it being used to mean “to make strong” or “to sustain,” so maybe that’s a late Koine Greek extended use? (Or maybe it’s just being pulled out of the translator’s ideas, who knows.)

The thing is… God is faithful. Jesus Christ isn’t going to fail on His side of the agreement.

That doesn’t mean that we won’t, or can’t.

But if we want to serve Him and obey Him, then sure, He will set us up until the end.

(1 Cor. 1:4-9)
I give thanks [Eucharistou!] to my God always for you, for the grace [chariti] of God that is given to you in Christ Jesus:

That in everything you have been made rich in Him: in all word [logou], and in all knowledge,

Exactly as the testimony [martyrion!] of Christ was established in you,

So that you do not lack in any gifts [charismati],

Eagerly waiting for the unveiling [apokalypsin] of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who also will establish you blameless ones to the end, on the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ,

The faithful God, by Whom you were called into the communion/fellowship/partnership/company [koinonian] of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

So this is Paul saying that he says Mass always with an intention for the Corinthians, who already seem to have suffered in some way in testimony to Christ, and who have every charism they could possibly need to keep going until the end. Jesus will keep His end up until the end. And the Corinthians receive Holy Communion, which seems to be connected in Paul’s mind with the Word and the charisms.

This doesn’t seem like a very Protestant passage, honestly.

There also seems to be a little buried song there, because you get “the unveiling of Our Lord Jesus Christ” and “on the Day of Our Lord Jesus Christ” right after each other. So maybe Paul is quoting.

The word “blameless” (plural masculine, accusative case) agrees with “you” (2nd person plural, accusative case). So I guess it gets translated as trailing off from the other phrase as a reproduction of Paul trailing it off. But it belongs back with “you/y’all.” The ones who get established to the end are the blameless ones.

 

[Wesrock]

You can be Christian, become justified, and you can lose that justification.

Those who do persevere to the end do so because they’ve received the gift of final perseverance. This isn’t just a declaration or something that is done apart from human free choice. God in his eternity knows who will accept or reject his grace and who will receive the grace to persevere to the end.

So you can’t persevere to the end without it, but just becoming Christian or justified at some point in your life doesn’t mean you have it. That’s the real take away.

It seems an evangelical follow up might be regarding whether we can rest easy or have assurance. We don’t need to be constantly anxious, certainly. We can be reasonably justified in believing we’re (currently) in good standing, the Church is there to guide us on that matter and living a holy life. That’s it’s purpose. But the type of assurance that leads to “I know I’m saved and I can do no wrong or even have to do anything at all now” is obviously not consistent with Church teaching. We believe that the race must still be finished even after we enter it.

 

[Mintaka]

Here’s the other passage in context:

Jeremiah 32:36-42

And now, therefore, thus says the Lord the God of Israel to this city (about which you say that it shall be delivered into the hands of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by famine, and by pestilence):

"Behold! I will gather them together out of all the lands to which I have cast them out in my anger, and in my wrath, and in my great indignation. And I will bring them again into this place, and will cause them to dwell securely. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

"And I will give them one heart, and one way, so that they may fear me all days; and so that it may be well with them, and with their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, and will not cease to do them good.

“And I will give my fear in their heart, that they may not revolt from me. And I will rejoice over them, when I shall do them good; and I will plant them in this land in truth, with my whole heart, and with all my soul.”

For thus says the Lord: “As I have brought upon this people all this great evil: so will I bring upon them all the good that I now speak to them.”

So yeah, this doesn’t have anything to do with God guaranteeing blessings to everybody, no matter what they do. It’s God taking mercy on His people after they rebelled, and giving them forgiveness. Doesn’t say He will always forgive, if you don’t want forgiveness. Does say that He will give grace so that they won’t rebel and sin in the first place.

So yeah, if you find yourself sinning unrepentantly, I would say that is a sign that you might not persist until the end. If you are repentant and keep trying to amend your life, that would be a sign that God is still giving you grace, and that you are responding. And if you aren’t sinning, that is very good.

 

[fhansen]

*Efficacious grace is still resistible in Catholic theology.

*The elect will go to heaven-they’re names are written in the Book of Life. Obviously they will persevere. Only God knows their names with certainty. They can lose they’re state of justice, and therefore their salvation, at any point-but will have repented and regained that status by the end if they’re truly of the elect. The “elect” can be regarded as simply those who God foreknows to have ultimately chosen rightly through their lives, to have persevered. Grace-God’s ongoing help- is still always necessary in any case along with this.

*If we choose rightly, good over evil, etc, we will be saved. Here’re teachings on this:

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

We really don’t have a doctrine of “perseverance of the saints”. That is a Calvinist thing.

I think it can be said, though, that for a faithful Catholic who is unfortunate enough to “lose their salvation” (through mortal sin), our situation is more like “once in grace, really easy to get back in grace” through the sacrament of penance.

 

[Anesti33]

Frequent reception of the Eucharist remits venial sins and strengthens the communicant against temptation to sin again. Frequenting all the sacraments has a similar effect by their conferral of sanctifying grace. This is not a bulletproof armor but it is the best possible aid that God can grant us while we are here on Earth.

 

[Hodos]

If you want to understand a Calvinist point of doctrine, what it means in context and how it is defended from scripture, you should ask an actual Calvinist. Otherwise you are likely to get a false view of what the doctrine teaches or a straw man that doesn’t actually teach the doctrine as it is understood by Calvinists. There are several on this site who could probably explain it to you. My understanding of perseverance of the saints is that those who are saved will be saved because they persevere in their faith until the end, and that it is by God’s grace that one is capable of persevering in the faith. From that point of view it should not be particularly controversial. The real issue is how it is tied to the doctrine of unconditional election, which essentially teaches double-predestination. That being said, I think @TULIPed could do a much better job explaining the nuances of this point of doctrine than I could.

 

[Genesis315]

Our doctrine is that the saints are those who persevere to the end, since, as Jesus says, “he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.” (Matt. 10:22)

Likewise, final perseverance is a grace from God. The Council of Trent enunciated the Catholic doctrine in Session VI:

THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE

Similarly with regard to the gift of perseverance, of which it is written:

He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved,[75] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him stand who stands,[76] that he may stand perseveringly, and to raise him who falls, let no one promise himself herein something as certain with an absolute certainty, though all ought to place and repose the firmest hope in God’s help.

For God, unless men themselves fail in His grace, as he has begun a good work, so will he perfect it, working to will and to accomplish.[77]

Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall,[78] and with fear and trembling work out their salvation,[79] in labors, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayer, in fastings and chastity.

For knowing that they are born again unto the hope of glory,[80] and not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat that yet remains with the flesh, with the world and with the devil, in which they cannot be victorious unless they be with the grace of God obedient to the Apostle who says:

We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die, but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.[81]

1. Matt. 10:22; 24:13.
2. Rom. 14:4.
3. Phil. 1:6, 2:13.
4. See 1 Cor. 10:12.
5. Phil. 2:12.
6. See 1 Pet. 1:3.
7. Rom. 8:12f.

 

[fhansen]

For those who do lose their salvation, they claim that that person never had it in the first place.

If this is the case then the concept of perseverance really has no meaning in Christianity. And it kind of messes with the whole idea of assurance anyway-who could predict whether or not they’ll be one who’ll later leaves because they “never had it in the first place”? Sort of a convenient contrivance IMO.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Some Christians kept fighting the good.fight, kept turning from sin, persevered in the Faith til they made into heaven.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

So this is Paul saying that he says Mass always with an intention for the Corinthians,

Does giving thanks always entail Mass?

 

[Mintaka]

Does “giving thanks” always imply Mass?

Well, not necessarily, in secular Greek literature.

But giving God a “todah,” a thank offering for someone being saved from danger by God, does usually get translated as “giving thanks.” And Passover is a thank offering. And Mass is the Eucharist, literally “the thanksgiving.”

So if Paul says “I Eucharist [eucharisteo] for you,” and you know that Paul is able to say Mass, you would assume that he’s talking about that, rather than about going to the Temple to make a thank offering.

And maybe I’m overthinking this – but look at all the sacramental language in this passage! St. Paul is basically reminding the Corinthians of most of the ways that sacraments bind them together.

Of course, we laypeople can give thanks to God with a thank offering of the heart, and we should! And we can’t be formal all the time.

But there’s always a sort of liturgical implication behind “giving thanks” to God in Scripture; the Bible isn’t talking about casual politeness.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Or this is the Thanksgiving section of Paul’s letter that he does every time. It doesn’t necessarily mean he had Mass for them 24/7. Also considering they met to break bread on the first day of the week, it’s a bit of a stretch.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The real issue is how it is tied to the doctrine of unconditional election, which essentially teaches double-predestination

Aquinas and Augustine taught unconditional election but not double predestination.

 

[TULIPed]

That being said, I think @TULIPed could do a much better job explaining the nuances of this point of doctrine than I could.

Uh…highly doubtful. I’m happy to sit on the JV bench with regard to theological issues - (even when it relates to my own camp) - and let you do the heavy lifting @Hodos.

Having said that - I find that the best place to start when thinking upon Reformed doctrine, and the scriptural support therefore, are the associated confessions. For example - here is the discussion of the doctrine in the Westminster Confession - along with scriptural proofs:

I. They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.(a)

(a) Phil. 1:6; II Pet. 1:10; John 10:28, 29; I John 3:9; I Pet. 1:5, 9.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;(b) upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;(c) the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them;(d) and the nature of the covenant of gracee) from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.(f)

(b) II Tim. 2:18, 19; Jer. 31:3.
(c) Heb. 10:10, 14; Heb. 13:20, 21; Heb. 9:12, 13, 14, 15; Rom. 8:33 to the end; John 17:11, 24; Luke 22:32; Heb. 7:25.
(d) John 14:16, 17; I John 2:27; I John 3:9
(e) Jer. 32:40
(f) John 10:28; II Thess. 3:3;

As @Hodos suggested - the key phrase in this discussion is the bolded one. Calvinists believe that our salvation isn’t about us (nor is anything). It’s all about God. He does as he pleases because He is God. The potter and clay analogy makes us very uncomfortable - as it should. But, it should also make us grateful and peaceful - IF - we look at our lives and see the Holy Spirit at work. Reformed Christians hold God’s sovereignty in tension with his perfect love. His election has to be accomplished with perfect love.

I find that the biggest issue that Catholics have with the doctrine of Perservearance is the manner in which other ( supposed) “Christians” use the doctrine to continue to live lifestyles that are incompatible with their faith.

Are there not Catholics who use doctrine to support sinful lifestyles as well? Perhaps we Calvinists are alone in our pens together with wolves in sheep’s clothing.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

As @Hodos suggested - the key phrase in this discussion is the bolded one. Calvinists believe that our salvation isn’t about us (nor is anything). It’s all about God. He does as he pleases because He is God. The potter and clay analogy makes us very uncomfortable - as it should.

It’s also a misunderstood analogy.

“Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as thispotter has done? says the Lord . Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 18:2‭-‬4‭, ‬6‭-‬10 RSV

The original context shows that whether a person becomes a vessel of wrath is because of that person, like the clay is reshaped becuase it slackens.

Yes God can save who He will, but it’s no secret who He shows mercy to.

And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.
Luke 1:50

 

[Julius_Caesar]

This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will,

You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. You will be hated by all because of my name. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your souls.
Luke 21:16‭-‬19 NRSV-CI

This proves that it’s 100% God, since He gave the gift, and 100% man because man perseveres.