please explain TULIP and then Catholic disagreements

[tweetymom]

The Church does not accept uncharitable behavior either!

Ament to that . But there is a lot of it floating around.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I cannot believe that a Good God *created *you, Adam, to go straight into hell forever.

Well, I’m glad God saves wretched and wicked sinners like myself to the praise of His glorious grace. I agree in one sense, that I do deserve to go straight into Hell forever and forever.

 

[tweetymom]

Well, I’m glad God saves wretched and wicked sinners like myself to the praise of His glorious grace. I agree in one sense, that I do deserve to go straight into Hell forever and forever.

As do I

 

[Carlan]

Could you please share your view on predestination since it is a biblical teaching and a Catholic teaching?

Adam, I understand predestination in the light of what the Church teaches and after skimming thru this thread most of the Catholics contributing have covered predestination with you. Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by Thing
I cannot believe that a Good God created you, Adam, to go straight into hell forever.

Well, I’m glad God saves wretched and wicked sinners like myself to the praise of His glorious grace. I agree in one sense, that I do deserve to go straight into Hell forever and forever.

As do I

I think the Apostle Paul would agree with both of us.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. - Apostle Paul

 

[Sunflower15]

…

I cannot believe that a Good God *created *you, Adam, to go straight into hell forever.

I was feeling something similar to your exposition here…but the pinnacle of it all was this last sentence…

And, heck, the name ‘Adam’ made it even better! [though I’m sure there was no pun intended…]

At which point is it ‘ok’ to wonder why should anyone even ‘desire or want’ to know a God Who in His infinite goodness creates an entire species so that only a few individuals may get to His Holy Presence to love and serve Him, :ehh:
while the vast majority gets condemned to eternal torment…not out of their FREE WILL nor disobedience, but out of being created specifically with that end in His infinite mind…

How many people believe this? Are there many Christians who believe this?

I guess, I just don’t see it anywhere in the Bible…really! SO, IF I believed ONLY in the Bible, I would still struggle finding such a God there…

Not to say that I have anything against those Christians who believe this…I just sincerely can’t conceive of this concept of a God as a loving, merciful, perfect God…

 

[Thing]

"We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his desire one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his desire to doom to destruction.
But Calvins’ God created people to go to hell forever.

 

[tweetymom]

"We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his desire one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his desire to doom to destruction.
But Calvins’ God created people to go to hell forever.

Really?

 

[Sunflower15]

"We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his desire one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his desire to doom to destruction.
But Calvins’ God created people to go to hell forever.

This passage does NOT exclude the possibility that it is
‘His desire to doom to destruction’ out of being deserving of justice -as in not accepting salvation and wasting the salvific effect of Jesus’ sacrifice for us…

One must assume a lot to read this as simply saying a capricious God just because ‘HE CAN’ dooms people as He wishes…arbitrarily…

It could also mean, of those who were hypocrites, and just simply said ‘I love you God’, without truly meaning it and truly manifesting it, those will condemn their souls by their actions and then, it will be ‘his desire to doom to destruction’ such persons…while
admitting those whom He finds sincere…

 

[theogrit]

:grouphug:
Hell is indeed a saddening and disturbing concept, but the last time I checked the Catholic Church embraces the Scripture doctrine of Hell and eternal torment every bit as much as churches of the Reformation. It is not lost on this poster that God is love, and that Christians are to be known by their great love, but the teachings of Jesus himself are the single greatest source for the Christian doctrine of Hell and eternal torment, and the complete holiness and goodness of God which transcends our human frailties is perhaps the most distinctive attribute raising Christianity above the other world religions where such holiness and personal salvation to fellowship with our Creator is lost. It is why we have a crucified and risen LORD. :hug1:

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks for starting this thread. This topic is important which deserves time. Therefore, my will post take some time, so please be patient with me on this particular thread. I hope other Calvinists on Catholic Answers would participate too.

Do you believe that God has already chosen a person for heaven or hell before they are born?

If so, do you believe that this choice is based on his foreknowledge of their cooperation with his grace?

 

[Thing]

"We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his desire one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his desire to doom to destruction.
But Calvins’ God created people to go to hell forever.

John Calvin wrote that thing.

Can I paraphrase it a bit; We say that God determined those whom it was his desire to doom to destruction.

Do you mean he did not say this?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

John Calvin wrote that thing.

Can I paraphrase it a bit; We say that God determined those whom it was his desire to doom to destruction.

Do you mean he did not say this?

God does not desire to doom anyone.

Eze. 33
11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

1 Timothy 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Thing]

This passage does NOT exclude the possibility that it is
‘His desire to doom to destruction’ out of being deserving of justice -as in not accepting salvation and wasting the salvific effect of Jesus’ sacrifice for us…

One must assume a lot to read this as simply saying a capricious God just because ‘HE CAN’ dooms people as He wishes…arbitrarily…

It could also mean, of those who were hypocrites, and just simply said ‘I love you God’, without truly meaning it and truly manifesting it, those will condemn their souls by their actions and then, it will be ‘his desire to doom to destruction’ such persons…while
admitting those whom He finds sincere…

Does it not mean that even with this foreknowledge [of God] that a person, whose soul has not even been created yet, will now be created by God for the sole purpose of going to hell forever because that same foreknowledge of Gods pronounces that this will be just.
Wlould it be better and more just, just not to create a person who is doomed before they are created?

 

[Thing]

God does not desire to doom anyone.

Eze. 33
11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

1 Timothy 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Sunflower15]

I know other Calvinists were predestined to join us… and a very grounded one at that. Now, did God send this guy to us, or did He just allow it?

The outcome is the same…He could have done either…depending on how it suits His plans…We ALL believe God intervenes…suggests…invites…
but that He, against any free will, compelled -in a way that made him truly unable to refuse- to enter into this thread…probably not!

Besides, being cruel is different, though…and I guess that is what we see in the ‘created to perish in terrible torment for all eternity’ scheme.

Maybe it is in the language where we don’t meet…I have noticed in the past when at times the words one tradition uses mean entirely different, or at least significantly different, concepts to those of other traditions…

In my case, I notice it more often between Orthodox and Catholics, as in the case of the Assumption and the Dormition… as well as other things.

It could be that when Calvinists speak of such God Who seem SO utterly cruel to us that we can’t even begin to entertain the notion, they are not meaning this at all!

 

[Carlan]

The Church does not accept uncharitable behavior either!

Hello Sunflower, I accept your correction if it was about the sticking out of the tongue,and not the thoughts I posted. Thank you Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam, I understand predestination in the light of what the Church teaches and after skimming thru this thread most of the Catholics contributing have covered predestination with you. Carlan

The Catholic Church is very broad in the various positions of predestation. I’m not sure what version you hold to.

catholicsource.net/Predestination.html

Predestination and the Catholic Church

by Adam C. Kolasinski

The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.

But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.

Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church’s soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:

1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
2. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
3. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
4. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
5. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.

There are, of course, many other teachings on salvation, but these are the main ones. Thomism, unlike Calvinism, accepts all of them. The main difference between the various schools of thought is how the calling grace of point 4 get dispensed, and its effects. Thomists maintain that God does not bestow it on everyone, while Molinists maintain that he does.

For more on the Catholic Church and Predestination, this essay by Ludwig Ott has more: Catholic Predestination

The Reformed view of double predestination:

the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

 

[theogrit]

:grouphug:

The Calvinist’s God is the same God who said, “Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.” (1 Sam. 15:3, NAB); and also says, “Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David.”(Isa. 55:3, NAB), and, “I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:14-15, NAB); and of whom it is said, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” (John 3:16, NAB).

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The Catholic Church is very broad in the various positions of predestation.

Regarding TULIP:

Unconditional atonement is clearly contradicted by scripture.

Limited atonement is contradicted by scripture as you can see from the verses above.

Irresistible grace is contradicted by scripture, as evidenced by those who reject God’s grace.

Perseverence of the states is contradicted by scripture which warns us of the dangers of leaving the faith.