please explain TULIP and then Catholic disagreements

[E.E.N.S]

…in contrast to…**

Roman Catholic**

The Roman Catholic Church calls predestination God’s Plan and states that this plan also includes free will for mankind. Catechism of the Catholic Church #600 says:
To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination’, he includes in it each person’s f****ree response to his grace: ‘In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.’ [Acts 4:27-28; cf. Ps 2:1-2] For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.[cf. Mt 26:54; Jn 18:36; 19:11; Acts 3:17-18]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_%28Calvinism%29

 

[E.E.N.S]

Catholics believe God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth.

Calvinists don’t.

To quote Augustine:

Without God, we can’t.

Without Us, God won’t.

And let’s not forget this gem of a quote from St. Augustine as well, (albeit a bit off topic, but related none-the-less…)

*“Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so” * (Faith and Creed 5:6 [A.D. 393]).

 

[theogrit]

That may be true, but you didn’t answer my question:

What do limited atonement and unconditional election mean if not that God created some men for Hell?

I’m sorry if I missed it, and I realize your question followed, but I actually thought it was one of the very first things I answered on this board, though indeed it was in response to the question of TULIP posed by the OP: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5906346&postcount=151

More specifically, if God limited his bestowal of grace, ie. atonement, and if those who are elect were chosen by God, then by default he created some men for hell.

God particularized salvation to those whom He saves. Forgive me if I completely fail to see how in any way your default view logically proceeds from your premise. I’m admittedly struggling to find your connection. Do you mean some manner of tie-in to perhaps Judas as “the son of destruction” (John 17:12: “When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.”, NAB) or “the one doomed to perdition” (2 Thess. 2:3-4: “Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god–”, NAB), or perhaps where the Scriptures speak of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart (Ex. 4:21ff: "The LORD said to him, “On your return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have put in your power. I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go.”, NAB)?

I’m perhaps not following your meaning by “created for hell”?

 

[2nd_Adam]

But do you believe that the Thomist view, allowed by the Church, claims that God predestined some to Hell?

I think we are talking semantics at this point. What I believe the Catechism condemns is a type of double predestination that Calvinists reject too. It is nicknamed to be hyper-Calvinism in which God actively hardens to heart of the retrobate in comparision to God passively passing over the retrobate. We know through Sacred Scripture that God hardened Pharoah’s heart. But in which way did God harden Pharoah’s heart? I actually like the Thomist view! The acutal words of predestination in Scripture is speaking about the Elect only, even though the doctrine of predestination is like a two sided coin.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us[1] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[theogrit]

Catholics believe God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth.

Calvinists don’t.

I’m a Calvinist, and both Calvin and I fully hold to 1 Timothy 2:3-4; “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” (NAB). AMEN.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’m a Calvinist, and both Calvin and I fully hold to 1 Timothy 2:3-4; “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” (NAB). AMEN.

Are you a Universalist?

Just kidding brother.

 

[theogrit]

Are you a Universalist?

Just kidding brother.

LOL, I think perhaps the thread is mostly having a breakdown in communication of disparate views and the acknowledgment of beliefs as presented by those who believe them. Still, it well illustrates the depth of both our valuable perspective and passionate devotion to the God we all love and adore. I hope none will be overly offended if I view that the Protestant God and the Catholic God are one and the same, despite what some Catholics and certainly a large grouping of Calvinists may otherwise assess.
:grouphug:
I’ll try to await further inquiry or comment from the OP.
Again, thanks to each of you, especially those with whom I disagree, for your kind welcomes here.
wanders off to look for buttons listing recent posts.
somehow finds it very heart-warming that the most active group on the board is Catholic Vegetarians and Vegans.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

If you really want to understand Calvinism, you should visit a Reformed Forum site, or study Calvinism on the Reformed.org or monergism.com sites. Otherwise, you guy can continue with your unintentional or intentional misrepresentation of your separated Reformed siblings. If I want to understand the Catholic Faith, I won’t go to Protestant Forum site to understand it.

I tend to avoid Protestant forum sites - because I can only take so much anti-Catholicism.

I was hoping you would be willing to show me my errors. I guess you’re not the right person to do that.

God bless.

Love is Patient

 

[2nd_Adam]

I tend to avoid Protestant forum sites - because I can only take so much anti-Catholicism.

I was hoping you would be willing to show me my errors. I guess you’re not the right person to do that.

God bless.

Love is Patient

Maybe not sister. May God continue to abundantly bless you. If you are growing in your affection for God as a Catholic Christian, then I praise God together with you for that wonderful blessing! For those who are united to Christ, there is no real Catholic nor Protestant distinction.

 

[tweetymom]

Maybe not sister. May God continue to abundantly bless you. If you are growing in your affection for God as a Catholic Christian, then I praise God together with you for that wonderful blessing! For those who are united to Christ, there is no real Catholic nor Protestant distinction.

Amen Adam and thanks for all the great info you have. Do you study all the time. I’ll sat WOW for all the work you do. And God Bless you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Amen Adam and thanks for all the great info you have. Do you study all the time. I’ll sat WOW for all the work you do. And God Bless you.

As always sister,

Thanks so much for your kind words and your balanced perspective of 1 Cor 13. God has blessed me with the same job for 19 years. When I’m not in the field, I’m at home in my office on the computer in which I work and fellowship on Christian forum sites at the same time.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Maybe not sister. May God continue to abundantly bless you. If you are growing in your affection for God as a Catholic Christian, then I praise God together with you for that wonderful blessing! ** For those who are united to Christ, there is no real Catholic nor Protestant distinction.**

Unfortunately, there are distinctions.

For example, every Sunday I kneel before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and then receive Him, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. (John 6)

My Protestant brethren miss out on that “source and summit of the Christian faith.”

May God bless you and draw your closer to Him…so that one day, we can receive Him together at His altar.

Love is Patient

 

[2nd_Adam]

Unfortunately, there are distinctions.

For example, every Sunday I kneel before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and then receive Him, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. (John 6)

My Protestant brethren miss out on that “source and summit of the Christian faith.”

May God bless you and draw your closer to Him…so that one day, we can receive Him together at His altar.

Love is Patient

Christ is in Heaven at the right hand of God interceding for me and you.

Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. - Apostolic Teaching from Sacred Scripture.

 

[clmowry]

I will look for quotes on Augustine in regards to your question. However, we know the Thomism view is very similar to what you are asking for.

They are all “similar.” But that doesn’t make them all the same or support double-predestination.

That said, maybe you have a definition of “double-predestination” that is compatable with Catholic teaching.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Here’s something by Augustine that is very related to your request…

Only those taught by the Father come to Christ

Accordingly, our only Master and Lord Himself, when He had said what I previously mentioned — ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent’ (Jn.6:29) — says a little afterwards in the same discourse, ‘I said to you that you also have seen Me and have not believed. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me’ (Jn.6:37). What is the meaning of ‘will come to Me’ but ‘will believe in Me’? But it is the Father’s gift that this happens. Moreover, a little later Jesus says, ‘Do not murmur among yourselves. No-one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes to Me’ (Jn.6:43-5). What is the meaning of ‘Everyone who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes to Me,’ except that there is no-one who fails to come to Me if they hear from the Father and learn? For if everyone who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes, then certainly everyone who does not come has not heard from the Father! For if he had heard and learned, he would come. No-one has heard and learned, and yet has failed to come. But everyone, as the Truth declares, who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes.

This teaching in which the Father is heard, and teaches to come to the Son, is far removed from the senses of the flesh. The Son Himself is also involved in this teaching, because He is the Father’s Word by which He teaches; and He does not do this through the ear of the flesh, but the ear of the heart. The Spirit of the Father and of the Son is also, at the same time, involved in this teaching; He, too, teaches, and does not teach separately, for we have learned that the workings of the Trinity are inseparable. And that is certainly the same Holy Spirit of Whom the apostle says, ‘We, however, having the same Spirit of faith’ (2 Cor.4:13). But this teaching is especially ascribed to the Father, because the Only Begotten is begotten from Him, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him, of which it would be tedious to argue more elaborately. I think that my work in fifteen books on the Trinity which God is, has already reached you.

No, this instruction in which God is heard and teaches is very far removed, I say, from the senses of the flesh. We see that many come to the Son because we see that many believe in Christ; but when and how they have heard and learned this from the Father, we do not see. It is true that that grace is exceedingly secret, but who doubts that it is grace? This grace, therefore, which is invisibly bestowed on human hearts by the divine gift, is not rejected by any hard heart — because it is given for the purpose of first taking away the hardness of the heart! When, therefore, the Father is heard within, and teaches, so that a person comes to the Son, He takes away the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, as He has promised in the declaration of the prophet. He thus makes them children and vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory.

On the Predestination of the Saints, 13

I don’t see it; maybe you can highlight the part you think is relevant?

Chuck

 

[2nd_Adam]

They are all “similar.” But that doesn’t make them all the same or support double-predestination.

That said, maybe you have a definition of “double-predestination” that is compatable with Catholic teaching.

Chuck

I believe if you read RC Sproul’s explanation of a Calvinist’s view of double predestination, you will find that it is not the same double-predestination as what the Catholic Faith rejects and refutes.

the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t see it; maybe you can highlight the part you think is relevant?

Chuck

I’m glad that you have received much of Augustine. If you don’t think any of this is helpful, let’s say our middle ground is Augustine.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I don’t see it; maybe you can highlight the part you think is relevant?

Chuck

I’m glad that you have received much of Augustine. If you don’t think any of this is helpful, let’s say our middle ground is Augustine.

2nd Adam, was this another intentional dodge on your part, or did you completely misread what clmowry was asking you to do??

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam, was this another intentional dodge on your part, or did you completely misread what clmowry was asking you to do??

I just got back walking the dog in the rain, raking the leaves, and my two teenage kids just got home. Therefore, I did a quick answer.

 

[clmowry]

I believe if you read RC Sproul’s explanation of a Calvinist’s view of double predestination, you will find that it is not the same double-predestination as what the Catholic Faith rejects and refutes.

the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

"In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”

monergism- the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

How does this not deny that man has free will?

Chuck