Please help - how should I talk to my husband about chores?

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This has zero to do with a Mother that did everything for him. It has everything to do with lack of respect for his wife and a lack of consideration. A grown adult man can look about the house and easily see the dirty dishes, the laundry, the floor that needs to be swept. And I suppose that while you’re a busy bee until 10 pm then he want you to be a tiger in bed. Who on earth would have the energy.

It’s time for the guys to help out without a wife begging and pleading. Of course this all hinges that she is also doing her part and it sounds like the op is.
 
This has zero to do with a Mother that did everything for him. It has everything to do with lack of respect for his wife and a lack of consideration.** A grown adult man can look about the house and easily see the dirty dishes, the laundry, the floor that needs to be swept.** And I suppose that while you’re a busy bee until 10 pm then he want you to be a tiger in bed. Who on earth would have the energy.

It’s time for the guys to help out without a wife begging and pleading. Of course this all hinges that she is also doing her part and it sounds like the op is.
Sad but true–a lot of people just don’t notice stuff and don’t think about it.

See UbiCaritas’s story upthread about returning home from the hospital.

By the way, this issue of not noticing stuff (if it is an issue for the OP’s husband) may need to dictate division of labor. When you’re dealing with a person who doesn’t notice stuff, they shouldn’t get global responsibility (example: make sure living room looks nice or make sure that what needs to be done is done). At our house, I don’t expect my husband to notice stuff (aside from keeping Baby Girl safe when he’s in charge), but he does have a number of discrete tasks: take out trash, wash dishes, etc.

The handover of dishwashing responsibility happened around the time of my second pregnancy, when 1) the smell of dirty dishes made me sick and 2) I eventually couldn’t reach the sink because my tummy was so big and my arms were so short. The job stuck after that pregnancy. 😃 Of course, I have to do dishes and trash when he’s traveling for business and the kids are starting to help with unloading.

“Not noticing” really is a thing. You can see the extreme examples of this in hoarding situations on the TV shows, where the hoarder will carry on for a quarter hour about each individual treasure, oblivious to the fact that their whole house is packed with similar “treasures” and that their home has turned into an indoor landfill. So I’m really leery about any theory based on the idea that people will start cleaning or picking up after themselves if you just stand back and stop doing stuff. Things can get REALLY out of hand that way and it’s no way to live.
 
Sad but true–a lot of people just don’t notice stuff and don’t think about it.

See UbiCaritas’s story upthread about returning home from the hospital.

By the way, this issue of not noticing stuff (if it is an issue for the OP’s husband) may need to dictate division of labor. When you’re dealing with a person who doesn’t notice stuff, they shouldn’t get global responsibility (example: make sure living room looks nice or make sure that what needs to be done is done). At our house, I don’t expect my husband to notice stuff (aside from keeping Baby Girl safe when he’s in charge), but he does have a number of discrete tasks: take out trash, wash dishes, etc.

The handover of dishwashing responsibility happened around the time of my second pregnancy, when 1) the smell of dirty dishes made me sick and 2) I eventually couldn’t reach the sink because my tummy was so big and my arms were so short. The job stuck after that pregnancy. 😃 Of course, I have to do dishes and trash when he’s traveling for business and the kids are starting to help with unloading.

“Not noticing” really is a thing. You can see the extreme examples of this in hoarding situations on the TV shows, where the hoarder will carry on for a quarter hour about each individual treasure, oblivious to the fact that their whole house is packed with similar “treasures” and that their home has turned into an indoor landfill. So I’m really leery about any theory based on the idea that people will start cleaning or picking up after themselves if you just stand back and stop doing stuff. Things can get REALLY out of hand that way and it’s no way to live.
Agreed. If it isn’t related to what my husband is thinking about right at a given moment, it might as well be invisible. The only reason he managed to survive prior to me was that he lived a very austere minimal existence. Even so, he had to be tripping over the trash before he realized it was time to take it out and searching desperately or a clean spoon before he noticed it was time to do the dishes. He has a really hard time with responsibilities that require considering the long term needs of our family. Packing a diaper bag is not something to trust him with. If he goes to the grocery store without a list, he comes back with just the things he wants to eat right now. Just tonight we had a minor argument because we were out to eat and I took my daughter to play in the play area while he waited with our son for the waiter to bring back our card. When he came out, he left a soppy cup, a tin of formula, and two diapers on the table, which I had to send him back to retrieve in three separate trips because apparently he can’t look at a table and discern, without my help, which items belong to us and which items don’t. Some people just don’t think that way. I think most of those people are probably men but if they are women they better get good at making lists or DFS will take their kids and it will be months before they even notice!
 
Agreed. If it isn’t related to what my husband is thinking about right at a given moment, it might as well be invisible. **The only reason he managed to survive prior to me was that he lived a very austere minimal existence. **Even so, he had to be tripping over the trash before he realized it was time to take it out and searching desperately or a clean spoon before he noticed it was time to do the dishes. **He has a really hard time with responsibilities that require considering the long term needs of our family. Packing a diaper bag is not something to trust him with. **If he goes to the grocery store without a list, he comes back with just the things he wants to eat right now. Just tonight we had a minor argument because we were out to eat and I took my daughter to play in the play area while he waited with our son for the waiter to bring back our card. When he came out, he left a soppy cup, a tin of formula, and two diapers on the table, which I had to send him back to retrieve in three separate trips because apparently he can’t look at a table and discern, without my help, which items belong to us and which items don’t. Some people just don’t think that way. I think most of those people are probably men but if they are women they better get good at making lists or DFS will take their kids and it will be months before they even notice!
That sounds very familiar about the “very austere minimal existence.” Before my husband and I got married, he owned something like two plates and two cups for dishes–plus a very small assortment of silverware (possibly only two forks and two spoons–seriously). He had a very spare studio apartment. So it was relatively easy to keep it all under control. A family home with lots of coming and going just has a lot more moving parts.

My husband has gotten to be pretty good at packing for swim excursions with children, but otherwise, the description sounds very familiar. For example, my husband has trouble planning in advance what he needs to take for particular outings. He has to wait until he is actually going out the door to think–cell phone, keys, wallet, briefcase, etc.

There are a lot of people like that out there.
 
Be careful this doesn’t turn into another men are idiots and pigs thread.

I don’t really understand the issue. I rarely ask my wife to do my job for me.
 
Be careful this doesn’t turn into another men are idiots and pigs thread.

I don’t really understand the issue. I rarely ask my wife to do my job for me.
These are often not moral failings we’re talking about–it’s just a personality type. And yes, this isn’t a personality feature that is split evenly between the sexes–a figure I just saw said that there are 3X as many diagnoses of ADHD among boys as among girls. Likewise, the ratio of boys to girls with autism spectrum issues is something like 4:1. Like it or not, the brain is a very gendered organ. (There is a lot of controversy, though, as to whether a lot of ADHD and ASD girls are undiagnosed.)

The people (some guys, some not) who do a lot of this stuff with disorganization are often very bright. But they hyperfocus on what they are doing and can’t see what is going on outside their current zone of interest. (Being able to hyperfocus is, if anything, a gift.) I would say that my autistic big girl displays some of these features, too–and keeping her room passable requires eternal vigilance. Her younger brother is much, much, much neater.

Here are some more organizational issues: when my husband and I were first dating, I remember him mentioning in passing that his organizational style for his graduate school papers was to just keep them in a single pile and then to go through them periodically. This worked fine for him at the time, but I suspect that at some point, you have so many papers in the stack that the system breaks down. Similarly, his organizational style for his other stuff is to keep it all out where he can see it on horizontal surfaces, because if it gets put away, he often can’t find it. This is, unfortunately, not workable in a home with five people’s stuff in it…But, as I may have mentioned previously in the thread, when he is traveling on business by himself, that’s how he organizes his hotel room–just spreading it all out on all available horizontal surfaces, so that everything is visible. I, on the other hand, am not nearly as smart as my husband, but I remember where stuff is and I could locate nearly everything he asks help finding blindfolded with one arm tied behind my back.

Again, these are not moral failings–it’s very likely a brain difference that needs to be worked around.

I don’t get this line: “I rarely ask my wife to do my job for me.” What is your “job” anyway? (And bear in mind that Allegra–who is one of the harder line posters in the thread–is a full-time working mom.) In a busy household, everybody needs to be pulling their weight. Nobody (not even the breadwinner) gets to just explode their stuff over common areas and leave it like that. A mom shouldn’t have to come home from the hospital with a new baby and her tummy or rear end full of stitches to find the house a dump. Also, there ought to be some rough equity in amount of free time for spouses. It shouldn’t be the case that one spouse is toiling alone over all the evening chores (because you can’t do the @#$%^&* dinner dishes before having dinner!) and also in charge of all of the children.

That just isn’t right and it’s not fair and nobody (of whatever possible gender) should have to put up with it.
 
These are often not moral failings we’re talking about–it’s just a personality type. And yes, this isn’t a personality feature that is split evenly between the sexes–a figure I just saw said that there are 3X as many diagnoses of ADHD among boys as among girls. Likewise, the ratio of boys to girls with autism spectrum issues is something like 4:1. Like it or not, the brain is a very gendered organ. (There is a lot of controversy, though, as to whether a lot of ADHD and ASD girls are undiagnosed.)

The people (some guys, some not) who do a lot of this stuff with disorganization are often very bright. But they hyperfocus on what they are doing and can’t see what is going on outside their current zone of interest. (Being able to hyperfocus is, if anything, a gift.) I would say that my autistic big girl displays some of these features, too–and keeping her room passable requires eternal vigilance. Her younger brother is much, much, much neater.

Here are some more organizational issues: when my husband and I were first dating, I remember him mentioning in passing that his organizational style for his graduate school papers was to just keep them in a single pile and then to go through them periodically. This worked fine for him at the time, but I suspect that at some point, you have so many papers in the stack that the system breaks down. Similarly, his organizational style for his other stuff is to keep it all out where he can see it on horizontal surfaces, because if it gets put away, he often can’t find it. This is, unfortunately, not workable in a home with five people’s stuff in it…But, as I may have mentioned previously in the thread, when he is traveling on business by himself, that’s how he organizes his hotel room–just spreading it all out on all available horizontal surfaces, so that everything is visible. I, on the other hand, am not nearly as smart as my husband, but I remember where stuff is and I could locate nearly everything he asks help finding blindfolded with one arm tied behind my back.

Again, these are not moral failings–it’s very likely a brain difference that needs to be worked around.

I don’t get this line: “I rarely ask my wife to do my job for me.” What is your “job” anyway? (And bear in mind that Allegra–who is one of the harder line posters in the thread–is a full-time working mom.) In a busy household, everybody needs to be pulling their weight. Nobody (not even the breadwinner) gets to just explode their stuff over common areas and leave it like that. A mom shouldn’t have to come home from the hospital with a new baby and her tummy or rear end full of stitches to find the house a dump. Also, there ought to be some rough equity in amount of free time for spouses. It shouldn’t be the case that one spouse is toiling alone over all the evening chores (because you can’t do the @#$%^&* dinner dishes before having dinner!) and also in charge of all of the children.

That just isn’t right and it’s not fair and nobody (of whatever possible gender) should have to put up with it.
Hey, ever notice how women can’t drive? :rolleyes:

Let me get this strait, men are the leaders of the free world, the vast majority of CEOs and are all incapable because of adhd? I remember on my accounting and science jobs rules about your desk, about files left about. But men are all adhd people incapable of not being pigs? You seriously went to a mental disease?! I guess then it would be fair to point out women’s hormones as a reason she can’t move up in the business world then?

That is a bunch of bunk. I can see this thread is destined for failure and is another casualty of sexist thinking.

I guess I’ll return to my cave now.

My job is the home. I find five kids and homeschooling quite the task. My wife does not expect me to go to her meetings for her and give presentations. And I don’t expect her to take a dish to the sink. It isn’t that hard to run a household.
 
Hey, ever notice how women can’t drive? :rolleyes:

Let me get this strait, men are the leaders of the free world, the vast majority of CEOs and are all incapable because of adhd?

I remember on my accounting and science jobs rules about your desk, about files left about. But men are all adhd people incapable of not being pigs? You seriously went to a mental disease?! I guess then it would be fair to point out women’s hormones as a reason she can’t move up in the business world then?

That is a bunch of bunk. I can see this thread is destined for failure and is another casualty of sexist thinking.

I guess I’ll return to my cave now.

My job is the home. I find five kids and homeschooling quite the task. My wife does not expect me to go to her meetings for her and give presentations. And I don’t expect her to take a dish to the sink. It isn’t that hard to run a household.
To clarify:
  1. People with ADHD or ASD can be very gifted. (If anybody has a bright kid with either, I recommend the book Different Minds by Deirdre Lovecky.)
  2. People in high positions can often be pretty “hyper.” (See, for example, at least one of the presidential candidates this year.) I know a really really bright guy (not my husband) who virtually bounces between his different projects.
  3. Being high energy is a gift.
  4. There is such a thing as medication.
  5. People (especially very bright people) can learn to work around their issues.
  6. “Leaders of the free world” and “CEOs” have lots of people at their beck and call to keep their stuff organized and make sure they get to meetings on time. (But some are still notoriously late–I believe that was true of Bill Clinton in his glory days.)
  7. As I said, there are girls with ASD and ADHD (and I know a bunch IRL)–it’s just that statistically, the diagnoses are very lopsided in the direction of boys.
  8. I wouldn’t call ADHD a “mental disease.” That would be insulting.
  9. I think you’re being unfair to people who literally can’t SEE that they are surrounded by squalor. I have a female relative whose fridge is typically packed with rotting garbage that used to be food. I have no idea what the diagnosis for that would be (OCD, ADHD?), but she literally cannot see and does not register the fact that her fridge is full of inedible food. And she’s been like that for at least the last 30 years that I know of.
If that family ever has a clean fridge, it has to be her husband taking charge and dealing with it (which he does from time to time–often by attempting to dragoon a visiting child to do it). She just cannot be left in charge of it, because that has never worked.
  1. If your wife was a single gal, she’d have to take that dish to the sink. Plus, it’s a bad example to children not to do so.
  2. It isn’t that hard to run a household–as long as every able-bodied member is pulling their own weight.
 
That sounds very familiar about the “very austere minimal existence.” Before my husband and I got married, he owned something like two plates and two cups for dishes–plus a very small assortment of silverware (possibly only two forks and two spoons–seriously). He had a very spare studio apartment. So it was relatively easy to keep it all under control. A family home with lots of coming and going just has a lot more moving parts.

My husband has gotten to be pretty good at packing for swim excursions with children, but otherwise, the description sounds very familiar. For example, my husband has trouble planning in advance what he needs to take for particular outings. He has to wait until he is actually going out the door to think–cell phone, keys, wallet, briefcase, etc.

There are a lot of people like that out there.
Mine is fine with collecting his own things, probably because he’s got years of experience with those and he intentionally travels light. Packing for the kids just doesn’t go well. If he took them swimming alone they’d all come back naked and sunburned. He doesn’t even put sunscreen on himself until he’s seared, despite being a pasty Norwegian.
 
OP, I don’t have too much advice, but wanted to offer my support and let you know that things can improve. My husband was the same when we married. Very messy, didn’t care if clean laundry was left in the basket or couch and dirty laundry thrown on the floor next to it, would leave cherry stems everywhere, etc. We even found a beer bottle under the couch the other day and had a good laugh about it. What helped was letting him know how much the mess stressed me out, how helpful it was whenever he did anything to clean, and making sure to thank him whenever he put something away. Our apartment isn’t perfectly clean and sometimes I just let it go about the laundry, but things can get better! Re: watching the baby, have you calmly told him how you feel and what you’d prefer? I used to get really upset when I’d ask my husband to watch the baby for a few minutes and he’d just kind of prop her somewhere while he continued to do stuff on his computer, but we talked about it and now I’ll just remind him to interact with her or read her a story and he’ll set down his computer/phone/book. We’re also looking into scheduling “me”, “him”, and “us” time when his grad classes start back up in the fall so that he can get work done, I can get a break, and we also make sure to spend time together.
 
Ont he note of what is clean or not for fun I always have a little joke.

A single man is eating pizza delivery off his napkins because his dishes are all dirty

A single woman is eating a roast off her plates

(Way less relevant today but still a simple generalization)

So when we merge, it is not that she does more because he is mean, but because he is still doing 100% chore level he lives by and she is doing the same.

I apply this to some posts here not really the OP as I really think despite arguements of labor the OPs situation has much more to do with the husband not being there in more ways than physical.

And sadly he seems to be mising out on the fun parts of the adult. I am reminded of the movie Old School when Will Ferrell’s character talks about his weekend not of party but of going to home depot and bed bath and beyond.

It doesn’t sound fun by itself, it is the being with your wife and forging a life together, it in complete form becomes fun. Many “chores” will be by default done either by the husband or together not because of the necessity of the chores or a division of labor, but because of a love and togetherness between spouses. When he sees the importance of being “with” her vs being on his video game they will by default have other things fall into place.

Which is why I think mentality can be key.

Do hard labor for 8 hours and go home. You body hurts a bit, you are tired, but you go out and party.

Go sit in a chair at the bedside of a dying relative for 3 hours and go home and crash because you are 10x more tired than the above.

It is not always about what we do, but how we do it o.O
 
Mine is fine with collecting his own things, probably because he’s got years of experience with those and he intentionally travels light. Packing for the kids just doesn’t go well. If he took them swimming alone they’d all come back naked and sunburned. He doesn’t even put sunscreen on himself until he’s seared, despite being a pasty Norwegian.
I have two words for you: “indoor pool.”
 
OP, I don’t have too much advice, but wanted to offer my support and let you know that things can improve. My husband was the same when we married. Very messy, didn’t care if clean laundry was left in the basket or couch and dirty laundry thrown on the floor next to it, would leave cherry stems everywhere, etc. We even found a beer bottle under the couch the other day and had a good laugh about it. What helped was letting him know how much the mess stressed me out, how helpful it was whenever he did anything to clean, and making sure to thank him whenever he put something away. Our apartment isn’t perfectly clean and sometimes I just let it go about the laundry, but things can get better! Re: watching the baby, have you calmly told him how you feel and what you’d prefer? I used to get really upset when I’d ask my husband to watch the baby for a few minutes and he’d just kind of prop her somewhere while he continued to do stuff on his computer, but we talked about it and now I’ll just remind him to interact with her or read her a story and he’ll set down his computer/phone/book. We’re also looking into scheduling “me”, “him”, and “us” time when his grad classes start back up in the fall so that he can get work done, I can get a break, and we also make sure to spend time together.
Awwww!
 
Mine is fine with collecting his own things, probably because he’s got years of experience with those and he intentionally travels light. Packing for the kids just doesn’t go well. If he took them swimming alone they’d all come back naked and sunburned. He doesn’t even put sunscreen on himself until he’s seared, despite being a pasty Norwegian.
In my experience, when the kids go somewhere with Dad, they go with the itinerary and supplies that Dad chooses. That can mean travelling a lot lighter and going without the comforts that Mom typically provides. (e.g., wounds that involve bleeding are dealt with using spit and an attaboy, not a wet wipe, Neosporin, a Band-Aid and a there-there.)
 
In my experience, when the kids go somewhere with Dad, they go with the itinerary and supplies that Dad chooses. That can mean travelling a lot lighter and going without the comforts that Mom typically provides. (e.g., wounds that involve bleeding are dealt with using spit and an attaboy, not a wet wipe, Neosporin, a Band-Aid and a there-there.)
We may get there at some point but my kids are two and eight months. A blow out diaper or having no formula tends to bring the outing to a premature end.
 
We may get there at some point but my kids are two and eight months. A blow out diaper or having no formula tends to bring the outing to a premature end.
Yeah.

The bigger the kids, the lighter you can travel.
 
:eek:

That’s a thing? Wow!
Last time I was at our community center it was for a baby shower and I got red eyes from being in the party room next to the pool! A poorly ventilated indoor pool can make anyone sick, but I think I’m particularly sensitive.
 
I suspect, too, that there are probably a lot of confounding factors at work in various situations.

In many families, boys aren’t expected to do as much housework as girls are. That can be one issue: if you aren’t taught the ins and outs of cleaning a kitchen, you might reasonably assume that “clean up the kitchen after dinner” consists of putting the dishes in the dishwasher and doesn’t necessarily involve sweeping under the high chair, taking out the trash, and so on.

In DH’s family, housecleaning-type chores were quite evenly distributed based on age/maturity/ability (i.e., a 12-year-old could be expected to clean a bathroom, and a 2-year-old to pick up toys with supervision) and not at all based on sex.

However, DH and I had very different living standards as adults. I make my bed as soon as I get out of it every morning, while he literally never made his bed as a child or as an adult. I don’t leave my bathroom in the morning until the towel is hung up, toothbrush put away, and hair/makeup tools are back in their spots. DH was never taught to do this. (To be fair, neither was I, but I self-taught as an adult.) He grew up in a house that I would consider very messy, but was happy in it, so for him a mess is a happy norm. I grew up in a house that was, bluntly speaking, filthy (think animal feces everywhere, garbage, etc), and was miserable, so I saw mess as an extension of the family dysfunction and became a neat freak.

Hoosier Daddy mentioned that his mother keeps a very tidy house. At a guess, she probably had him learn to do a lot of basic housework as a kid, or at least taught him to clean up after himself and to notice things like, say, “Oh, I spilled chocolate milk on the floor, best wipe that up” vs DH, who, if he thought of the spilled chocolate milk again beyond the annoyance of pouring another glass, would honestly assume “it’ll dry in a while, or the dog will lick it up.” (NB: We don’t have a dog, but he grew up with one always in the house.) This isn’t a man-vs-woman thing; it’s an upbringing thing. DH’s sisters would react the same way he would, though he does have one rather neat-inclined brother who’d assume that if there was a spill of chocolate milk on the floor, he’ll just go ahead and mop the whole floor while he’s at it. 😛

I also suspect that if you aren’t taught how to clean a house in a reasonably efficient manner, then the idea of Cleaning The House is very intimidating because there are so many things to do. It was for me when I first took over running my parents’ house, and then again when I lived on my own and, later, became a mom with far more limited time. I figured out efficient routines that worked for those various stages, but though I was motivated (I do loathe being in a messy house), it still took a good bit of time to hone those routines to the point that I could describe my housekeeping as more general maintenance than perpetual firefighting–i.e., running the dishwasher every night and emptying it in the morning vs waiting 'til I was hungry and out of clean silverware, glasses, and dishes and the sink was piled high with dishes coated in caked-on food to overload the dishwasher and have to wash half the items by hand, anyway.
 
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