Please help me with these stumbling blocks

[Cory_G]

You could also use an envelope, and that way no one would know how much you were giving.

That could be done. But I would know that there isn’t enough in there. That creates the feelings of inadequacy.

There are other alternatives that wouldn’t put people on the spot. Why are you against those alternatives?

 

[Cory_G]

This is the registration policy for the school…it has nothing to do with the sacraments. This is a very standard procedure. What is your issue with this?

The school I teach at has a $300 non-refundable deposit.
The high school where my kids go has a $250 non-refundable deposit PER STUDENT in each family every year.

Both schools have waiting lists.

What is your real issue?

The issue is, from my original statement, that the Church grants special favors to those who tithe weekly rather than on another frequency.

The Parish is the one who is tracking the envelopes not the school. The school is receiving the data from the Parish.

 

[jmcrae]

That could be done. But I would know that there isn’t enough in there. That creates the feelings of inadequacy.

There are other alternatives that wouldn’t put people on the spot. Why are you against those alternatives?

Because they aren’t as efficient at raising money for the Church. A donation box can be easily overlooked, or robbed.

Mailouts cost money. And I don’t know anyone who voluntarily mails money to a post office box, “just because.” Passing the basket costs nothing, it’s secure, and gets people’s attention. It’s the most efficient means to raise money.

 

[jmcrae]

The issue is, from my original statement, that the Church grants special favors to those who tithe weekly rather than on another frequency.

That’s not the Church; that’s a private school. Schools are not part of the Church.

The Parish is the one who is tracking the envelopes not the school. The school is receiving the data from the Parish.

Maybe they have some sort of agreement with the parish to provide some sort of religious education to the students.

 

[Ag_not]

The school is a catholic school right? The school wants evidence that those applying are from practicing catholic families. One way to prove this is too keep track of the envelopes. It clearly says in the statement they are not remotely interested in HOW MUCH is in the envelope, just that the envelope turns up every week - thereby proving the family of the applicant are attending mass regularly, thus proving they are practicing catholics.

As to each family tithing 5K - I will eat my underwear live on CAF if you prove to me that every catholic family in your parish donates 5K a year on average to the church. And that’s a promise.

Passing the plate - you mmay have issues with this, which I pray you can reconcile, but from the few masses Ive attended so far, when the plate is passed around, no one takes a blind bit of notice what anyone else is doing or donating.

Sacraments - I will eat my socks, scarf and hat, live on CAF, if you can show that any priest, in any parish, anywhere, would deny a catholic any sacrament, because of money.

Money and the church are uneasy bedfellows - it seems crass bringing such an earthly entity into the realms of the sacramental, the religious, the mysterious, the unearthly, the heaven bound, but we live in the real world. Priests have to eat. Leaks need fixing. Cars need gas. Utility bills need paying or you get cut off. Clothes need to be replaced. And almsot every single penny the priest gets comes from donates to the church from the parishioners. And noone, but noone, cares if it’s a dime, a $ or 5K$. The point is you are supporting, in a practical and real way, the church, and enabling her to continue her ministry.

 

[Cory_G]

Because they aren’t as efficient at raising money for the Church. A donation box can be easily overlooked, or robbed.

Mailouts cost money. And I don’t know anyone who voluntarily mails money to a post office box, “just because.” Passing the basket costs nothing, it’s secure, and gets people’s attention. It’s the most efficient means to raise money.

You make a good point. I think my problem may be a misunderstanding of theology.

It has always been my belief that the Church survives and thrives based on God’s Will. He blesses us with compassion and the yearning to give, and we give to the Church because of His love.

But from what I have read in this thread thus far, donations are more about a straetgic system that has been perfected to solicit the maximum amount of support possible.

 

[Cory_G]

That’s not the Church; that’s a private school. Schools are not part of the Church.

Maybe they have some sort of agreement with the parish to provide some sort of religious education to the students.

If they are separate then whey would the Church care if you are a weekly tither to a specific parish?

Why would this Parish turn over tithing records to a school that is not part of itself?

The fact is the Parish monitors your tithing and in turn will provide you special standing. In this case it will give your children priority in it’s school.

This in my opinion is wrong. If you think tithing records should be made public and you should be judged on them, more power to you jmcrae.

 

[Ag_not]

If they are separate then whey would the Church care if you are a weekly tither to a specific parish?

Why would this Parish turn over tithing records to a school that is not part of itself?

The fact is the Parish monitors your tithing and in turn will provide you special standing. In this case it will give your children priority in it’s school.

This in my opinion is wrong. If you think tithing records should be made public and you should be judged on them, more power to you jmcrae.

Nope. Youre incorrect. Once again - the envelopes are EVIDENCE that the family of the prospective student has actually turned up at mass, as they handed the envelope in during the collection AT MASS. It’s the most effective way for the school to see if the catholic child applying is catholic in name only or if they are from a family that actually practices their faith.
It has nothing what soever to do with tithing. Or how much is donated.

 

[jmcrae]

If they are separate then whey would the Church care if you are a weekly tither to a specific parish?

Why would this Parish turn over tithing records to a school that is not part of itself?

The fact is the Parish monitors your tithing and in turn will provide you special standing. In this case it will give your children priority in it’s school.

This in my opinion is wrong. If you think tithing records should be made public and you should be judged on them, more power to you jmcrae.

It is made clear in the letter from the school that the amount of money in the envelope (if any) is not looked at. Only the fact that the envelope is there, thus signifying attendance.

The school seems to have a mandate to educate Catholic children who attend Mass regularly. They have the right to make sure that that’s who they’re actually educating. They are probably partnering with the parish to provide them with students, and to provide those students with a religious education.

 

[Cory_G]

The school is a catholic school right? The school wants evidence that those applying are from practicing catholic families. One way to prove this is too keep track of the envelopes. It clearly says in the statement they are not remotely interested in HOW MUCH is in the envelope, just that the envelope turns up every week - thereby proving the family of the applicant are attending mass regularly, thus proving they are practicing catholics.

Your correct they do not care about the amount of the tithe. They care about the frequency. Why should a person who tithes $400 once a month be due less favorable treatment than a person who tithes $100 a week?

The frequency of tithing has no relation to your attendance at Mass or your devoutness as a Catholic.

 

[Cory_G]

It is made clear in the letter from the school that the amount of money in the envelope (if any) is not looked at. Only the fact that the envelope is there, thus signifying attendance.

Is this a requirement now, for every parishioner attending Mass to fill out a card for attendance? Or is this only a requirement if you want to obtain special favors from the Church and its ministries?

I am having trouble in seeing how this is the charitable way to act.

 

[Ag_not]

Your correct they do not care about the amount of the tithe. They care about the frequency. Why should a person who tithes $400 once a month be due less favorable treatment than a person who tithes $100 a week?

The frequency of tithing has no relation to your attendance at Mass or your devoutness as a Catholic.

Because the person tithing 400 once a month is at mass, once a month. The person tithing 100 a week, is at mass, once a week.

They want evidence of REGULAR mass attendance. THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW MUCH IS TITHED OR DONATED !!!

They want to see evidence of regular practice, so an envelope a week beats an envelope a month !!!

 

[Ag_not]

Is this a requirement now, for every parishioner attending Mass to fill out a card for attendance? Or is this only a requirement if you want to obtain special favors from the Church and its ministries?

I am having trouble in seeing how this is the charitable way to act.

Im having trouble in seeing what your real issue is here, too be honest. Im starting to suspect you have another agenda. Unfair maybe - but you seem totally hung up on this so called ‘‘special favors’’ - when clearly there is nothing of the sort going on. So, out with it - what is your real issue and agenda, and we can help you get to the bottom of it.

 

[japhy]

That could be done. But I would know that there isn’t enough in there. That creates the feelings of inadequacy. There are other alternatives that wouldn’t put people on the spot.

Those alternatives wouldn’t quell your feelings of inadequacy.

 

[Cory_G]

I thank you all for helping me see the different angles of this debate. When I debate sometimes I get heated, but I want to let everyone know I am just a debtor and am not questioning the Faith or Salvation.

All this talk about attendance has brought up another issue, one that was brought up on the same baptism information sheet.

Link: sjnc.org/ located under sacraments and baptism.

It requires that the parents attend a couple of services with baptisms and that they get a signed copy of that day’s bulletins.

Does the Catholic Church really hold such a mistrust of its parishioners that things such as tithing envelopes and bulletins being signed by Priest are requirements?

 

[Cory_G]

Those alternatives wouldn’t quell your feelings of inadequacy.

Your correct, but it wouldn’t be shoved in my face (literally) every week.

 

[jmcrae]

Is this a requirement now, for every parishioner attending Mass to fill out a card for attendance? Or is this only a requirement if you want to obtain special favors from the Church and its ministries?

This particular thing is a requirement of the school - if you want the “special favour” of going to that school (which has absoluely nothing to do with the Church itself - there is no requirement for a Catholic to “must” attend an elite school), then you need to prove that you attend Mass every week, and that’s how they’ve (the school, not the Church) chosen to do it.

The “special favour” isn’t a favour of the Church, though. The Church doesn’t care which school you send your kids to. It’s a “special favour” of that particular school.

 

[Cory_G]

Because the person tithing 400 once a month is at mass, once a month. The person tithing 100 a week, is at mass, once a week.

They want evidence of REGULAR mass attendance. THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW MUCH IS TITHED OR DONATED !!!

They want to see evidence of regular practice, so an envelope a week beats an envelope a month !!!

There is no reason to yell or get excited. Peace be with you.

Im having trouble in seeing what your real issue is here, too be honest. Im starting to suspect you have another agenda. Unfair maybe - but you seem totally hung up on this so called ‘‘special favors’’ - when clearly there is nothing of the sort going on. So, out with it - what is your real issue and agenda, and we can help you get to the bottom of it.

You touched the real issue in your previous post, which is quoted above. The fact that the Church, and you by way of your post, equates a monthly tithe to a person who attends Mass only once a month and a weekly tithe to a person who attends Mass every week.

This is unfounded. The fact that a Catholic is treated differently from another Catholic based on frequency of a tithing envelope is wrong.

Out of all your posts, I have failed to see a reason why it is correct to make the above assumption.

 

[Cory_G]

To add, Ag_not, you keep mentioning amount of tithe, yet I have never mentioned it once.

 

[Newbie2]

You make my point very clear here. The fact that you are noticing what others are giving causes unnecessary anxiety for some people.

I have a family of four. I make $1,300/month. I don’t have a lot of money, and currently I am in college obtaining a BA.

I have two options, drop a meager amount into the plate, or donate later, in which case it appears to those around that I donated nothing.

I don’t like being put into a situation where I am required to feel inadequate because of my current financial situation.

Anything that doesn’t require people to be put on the spot and made to feel inferior to others. I suggest removing donations from Mass and providing convenient ways to donate, such as: Donation boxes, mailing address for donations, etc.

That could be done. But I would know that there isn’t enough in there. That creates the feelings of inadequacy.

There are other alternatives that wouldn’t put people on the spot. Why are you against those alternatives?

Collections would drop like a stone if parishes didn’t have regular Sunday collections. It’s human nature. I would suggest going to a few Stewardship commission/committee meetings if you doubt it.

They’ll take your donation if you show up midweek and give it to a secretary in the office or whomever.

I think rather than faulting the system…and I say this charitably…you need to examine yourself. The “feelings of inadaquacy” are yours, not others. The easy, uncharitable thing to say would be “Get over it” or as my business partner who is a councelor might say, “You can only be taken advantage of (in terms of feelings) if you allow it”.

The only people who know how much you put in are the two, maybe three people around you during collection, and whoever in the office does the tallying if you use an envelope. If they are critical of your donation or non-donation, so what? If you are more concerned about what other people think of you than of the good your donation, however large or small it may be, does for the parish, the diocese, the poor, the disadvantaged, etc, then it’s time to reassess your priorities.

Is your focus on you and how you feel about giving or is it on the Almighty and what he might be able to do with your gifts?

As far as “Pay for Pray”, if you cannot afford the customary donation for baptism or marriage, you can get such for “free”, possibly at another parish. Lights, heat, A/C all cost money, and the pastors or deacons deserve way more money than they are paid in salary.