Please please help.

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You’ve obviously haven’t watched all the videos. This is addressed with the concepts of weak and strong atheism.
The reason I POSTED THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE was because I WATCHED THOSE VIDEOS and was looking for a different opinion. So I did watch those videos also you are saying it is weak atheism you haven’t discredited it being agnostic my point was colloquial language (which is used as he explains concepts starting simply, it isn’t a academic setting) atheism isn’t generally understood as weak atheism, weak atheism is generally understood as agnosticism. Anyways my point is being atheistic while claiming you are open and looking for god are CONTRADICTORY.
 
Also your Evidentialist underpinnings and atheistic beliefs make for a contradiction atheism is the belief there is no god,
He was pretty specific with definitions and term usage. Sounds like the video titled “definitions” may have been may have been missed. Check it out! 🙂
evidentialism gives no evidence there is no god, so you aren’t an atheist (“without god” as there is no evidence there is no god) but obviou
Refer to the 3.x videos for this.
so it would seem you are more agnostic
See the definitions video as this is also addressed.
Atheism - the rejection of god
Agnostic - “I don’t know” when it comes to god’s existence.
If there were some videos missed go back and check them out. The objections raised here are not consistent with the definitions that were presented inthe videos and don’t represent what was presented well. The content that was missed may be leading to an unintentional straw man argument.
 
The reason I POSTED THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE was because I WATCHED THOSE VIDEOS and was looking for a different opinion. So I did watch those videos also you are saying it is weak atheism you haven’t discredited it being agnostic my point was colloquial language (which is used as he explains concepts starting simply, it isn’t a academic setting) atheism isn’t generally understood as weak atheism, weak atheism is generally understood as agnosticism. Anyways my point is being atheistic while claiming you are open and looking for god are CONTRADICTORY.
Not really, atheist means that you do not believe the evidence to be sufficient for the claim of God. If the evidence changes, his mind could change.

It is the scientific method. You base your theory on findings (evidence), if the evidence changes you have to change the theory. Nothing is a absolute declaration.
 
**Evid3nc3,

We’re all born atheists. And we may actually stay that way despite having grown up in a religious tradition, despite what we may profess even, and despite what reasons there may be that compel us to profess it.

FWIW I’ll tell you first off I’m not particularly impressed with opinions about God associated with the level of ones education, regardless of the field of learning, and regardless of whether one is believer or atheist. I’m not anti-intellectual by any means; I value the enormous strides made in knowledge but, while I’m just a dumb farmer, even dummies know there are limitations to human understanding; the body of knowledge now in the world’s possession is rapidly increasing but will prove itself to be far from complete as we gain even more.

Personally, I think there’s glaring evidence for the existence of a creator-god, of a rational mind behind the universe. However, very few of the attributes of such a god could be determined based on observations of that creation alone. Knowledge of the nature of a god such as the Christian one could only be obtained by revelation, if such a thing is possible.

This idea may sound simplistic, but I suggest you read some of the Catholic “mystics” (a traditional term for people claimed to have received private direct revelation from God), such as Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross. These experiences are very rare, and I’ve been privileged to have received a few myself (I seldom share this fact since the subject of private revelations are, by nature, controversial, although the Church recognizes and teaches that God works in that way at times for His purposes), and, having run in Pentecostal circles for a few years, I can tell you that these “mystical” experiences have absolutely nothing in common with the so-called experiences professed by Pentecostals-all bogus IMO. The real things are strictly direct communications received,** nothing more or less, impossible to produce on ones’ own, and in that sense no different than this direct communication I’m posting now. We can question why God doesn’t reveal Himself to all in this way on a regular basis, or why evil exists in this world if God is good and worth knowing, but those are separate questions from the one at hand, which is, does God exist at all?

In any case, had you had the kind of communications I’m referring to you’d be incapable of no longer believing in God-and the reasons you think are valid for doing so now would be reduced to ‘so much straw’. God can communicate directly, bypassing the senses but ending with the same results as with communications received in the normal way *via *sense perception, and these communications have nothing in common with hunches, feelings, or senses that we’ve been touched in some way; we simply play no role in the matter. Emotions may or may not be involved as well, depending on content.

And, BTW, while these experiences I’m speaking of are generally experienced subjectively, I’d suggest that all experiences are ultimately subjective by their nature; we can’t prove that anything we claim to experience has ever actually taken place. Every single normal experience received in life, all of which come to us via the five senses as far as we know, are solely experienced subjectively by us, including the experience of communicating with others. We can confirm our experiences by comparing notes with others as we simply interact with them in everyday discourse or as we set out to prove or disprove a theory and in this manner we arrive at a high degree of certainty that we’ve ascertained some truth or another-that our experiences aren’t just personal dreams. Similarly, people who’ve received supernatural experiences can compare notes in the like manner.

Ultimately God is an experience, like any other reality in that particular sense. Religion is supposed to give us information about that experience, i.e.* about* God, but can’t provide the experience itself.
 
Not really, atheist means that you do not believe the evidence to be sufficient for the claim of God. If the evidence changes, his mind could change.

It is the scientific method. You base your theory on findings (evidence), if the evidence changes you have to change the theory. Nothing is a absolute declaration.
My point with this is to clear the waters as atheist as a word has been muddled. Atheism would be more in line with strong atheism as it comes from the meaning “without god” and agnostic would be more correct (as in the definition video he even labels himself an agnostic atheist why need the extra word agnostic works)

My point is not to make a straw man (though I can see how you see that as more goal) my goal is to define the terms as I feel they are often muddled

As I view it

Atheistic (Belief in no god)
Agnostic (Belief in neither no god or a god)
Deist (Belief in some supreme being)
Theistic (Belief in God as commonly understood (capital G to differentiate it from god and God one is the idea the other the idea of a personal “person”)
 
My point with this is to clear the waters as atheist as a word has been muddled. Atheism would be more in line with strong atheism as it comes from the meaning “without god” and agnostic would be more correct (as in the definition video he even labels himself an agnostic atheist why need the extra word agnostic works)

My point is not to make a straw man (though I can see how you see that as more goal) my goal is to define the terms as I feel they are often muddled

As I view it

Atheistic (Belief in no god)
Agnostic (Belief in neither no god or a god)
Deist (Belief in some supreme being)
Theistic (Belief in God as commonly understood (capital G to differentiate it from god and God one is the idea the other the idea of a personal “person”)
But even your definitions doesn’t lock an atheist into “THERE IS NO GOD” as a dogmatic confine, if the evidence changes his belief can change.

I don’t believe in unicorns, I am a-unicorn, but if one showed up in my back yard I’d change my tune.

I think you are both saying the same thing, but ( I may be wrong) I think you are trying to make his belief a permanent fixed position. I didn’t get the impression that is his position. Rather the evidence doesn’t support either position (God can neither be proven nor disproved (agnostic)) so he takes what he sees as the logical position (using Occam’s Razor) that there is no God (atheism).
 
But even your definitions doesn’t lock an atheist into “THERE IS NO GOD” as a dogmatic confine, if the evidence changes his belief can change.

I don’t believe in unicorns, I am a-unicorn, but if one showed up in my back yard I’d change my tune.

I think you are both saying the same thing, but ( I may be wrong) I think you are trying to make his belief a permanent fixed position. I didn’t get the impression that is his position. Rather the evidence doesn’t support either position (God can neither be proven nor disproved (agnostic)) so he takes what he sees as the logical position (using Occam’s Razor) that there is no God (atheism).
Its not at all a locked position people have converted from Christianity, Buhdism, Islam, Judaism, Toaism, Hinduism, Atheism, Agnosticism, etc to others all the time it is in not way locked in but to simply go from agnostic to atheist seems a bit rash.
 
Atheistic (Belief in no god)
Agnostic (Belief in neither no god or a god)
Deist (Belief in some supreme being)
Theistic (Belief in God as commonly understood (capital G to differentiate it from god and God one is the idea the other the idea of a personal “person”)
You’ll find that even within this forum there’s variance in how the words are used. Usually when some one is applying the word to them self within this forum in the present tense the semantics tend to match what Evid3nc3 has presented. But when some one is talking about the disposition of some one else in the forum or what their own disposition was in the past then the strong variant is more common. I think that has lead to a lot of misunderstandings here. A few have labeled themselves as “agnostic atheist” which I think reduces potential ambiguity. Some months ago I decided to consult several dictionaries and depending on which dictionary you use you may find that either definition is supported.

There’s even some variance in how the phrase “believe in” is used, but that’s another story (I’ll save it for another day).
but to simply go from agnostic to atheist seems a bit rash.
Under the semantics he’s used he is both. Some one can also be an agnostic theist too, or a gnostic christian.
 
Atheistic (Belief in no god)
Agnostic (Belief in neither no god or a god)
I think I understand where your confusion comes from.

An atheist is “without God” in the sense that they are without a belief in God. Since this is the definition used by most atheists, I think it only polite that theists accept this as the definition. I’m sure that most people here would be offended if I attempted to foist my own private definition of Catholicism onto you guys.

Some atheists go further and declare that, “There is no God”. These people are known as “strong” or “positive” atheists in order to distinguish their stance from the much milder stance of most atheists.

Agnosticism is a different kettle of fish entirely. The agnostic does not simply say that the answer is not known, he says the answer is not knowable. It is an epistemological rather than an ontological position, and quite an extreme one too. Agnosticism is not the wishy-washy, fence-sitting mediocrity that most people think it is. It is a bold claim about the ultimate extent of possible human knowledge.

I can’t really credit agnosticism myself. Whilst I honestly do not know what would convince me that an God exists, I am forced to admit that an omnipotent being could provide convincing evidence of of His existence, just by definition of the term “omnipotent”.

I’m an atheist. I’m not extreme enough to be an agnostic.
 
You’ll find that even within this forum there’s variance in how the words are used. Usually when some one is applying the word to them self within this forum in the present tense the semantics tend to match what Evid3nc3 has presented. But when some one is talking about the disposition of some one else in the forum or what their own disposition was in the past then the strong variant is more common. I think that has lead to a lot of misunderstandings here. A few have labeled themselves as “agnostic atheist” which I think reduces potential ambiguity. Some months ago I decided to consult several dictionaries and depending on which dictionary you use you may find that either definition is supported.

There’s even some variance in how the phrase “believe in” is used, but that’s another story (I’ll save it for another day).
Which I agree is a major problem which is why I am trying to address it.

So may I ask when you say you are atheism do you mean you have evidence of god not existing (may I ask what?) or that you simply haven’t been convinced by any evidence you have heard (again may I ask what?)
 
So may I ask when you say you are atheism do you mean you have evidence of god not existing (may I ask what?) …]
I would say that I have no direct or indirect knowledge of having ever interacted with anything that was recognized as a god. So I don’t have any gods in the mental model of the world from which I form expectations or make decisions.

I’m familiar with a few god concepts and I find them of interest from a perspective of the “sociology of religion” in much the same way that some one may find a piece of literature from a society to be of interest. Familiarity certainly does help in making sense of reactions in the political sphere or understanding events from history. While I understand that people have their various meanings and interpretations of the word “god” or “God” I may sound almost ignostic in saying that the word has no personal meaning to me; I only use the word “god” or “God” to talk about the beliefs that some one else holds. Instead of using God with a capital ‘G’ I prefer to identify which God I am talking about using his/her specific name (Yahweh, El, Allah, Vishnu, Tiamat,Zeus, so on…).
…]or that you simply haven’t been convinced by any evidence you have heard (again may I ask what?)
Since I was a Christian up to a previous point in my life it may not be accurate to saw that I wasn’t convinced. Though one could say that the conviction was not sustained (I won’t provide details there because doing so may violate the forum rules).
 
You obviously do see it as an affront to your faith because you can’t understand why someone else wouldn’t share it and feel the need to defend it.

You keep repeating the same mantra “people I respect believe it, so I believe it” - which is fine. A valid reason for faith as any other but you must realize that your personal belief is, a personal belief. You can’t expect everyone to share it.

For instance - He had an experience of God, which you are discounting as valid because it led him to atheism.
I don’t understand why someone would take his arguments seriously because they are based on errors to begin with.

And yes, I repeat my ‘mantra’ because no one has bothered to refute them. And it is not just because others believe, it is because others have had direct contact or experiences with the supernatural.

I don’t discount his experience with God, I really don’t care either way. What I discount was his experience in being disappointed that God did not magically come to his rescue when he was confronted in class. God doesn’t work that way. Faith doesn’t work that way. His whole discourse sounds like the antics of a disappointed child that is really pissed off because his parent let him down at the most inopportune time.

He’s spent a lot of time and energy, trying to prove his point and trying to convince others that he is right. IF he had spent half as much energy in figuring out where he went wrong, he may have done a lot better. Being on the wrong side of Christianity played a huge part in why he got where he did.

Folks who take the Bible literally often run into those types of problems. And folks who think too much of themselves usually end up in the same boat as well.

SO yes, I guess it does gall me a bit when someone takes their so called limited experience of God, gets disappointed and rejects every faith as being a fraud. Start off with the right faith and maybe you have a fighting chance of getting it right. Start off with one in grave error and maybe you’ll get yourself into a bind as he did.
 
I would say that I have no direct or indirect knowledge of having ever interacted with anything that was recognized as a god. So I don’t have any gods in the mental model of the world from which I form expectations or make decisions.

I’m familiar with a few god concepts and I find them of interest from a perspective of the “sociology of religion” in much the same way that some one may find a piece of literature from a society to be of interest. Familiarity certainly does help in making sense of reactions in the political sphere or understanding events from history. While I understand that people have their various meanings and interpretations of the word “god” or “God” I may sound almost ignostic in saying that the word has no personal meaning to me; I only use the word “god” or “God” to talk about the beliefs that some one else holds. Instead of using God with a capital ‘G’ I prefer to identify which God I am talking about using his/her specific name (Yahweh, El, Allah, Vishnu, Tiamat,Zeus, so on…).

Since I was a Christian up to a previous point in my life it may not be accurate to saw that I wasn’t convinced. Though one could say that the conviction was not sustained (I won’t provide details there because doing so may violate the forum rules).
Ok so I am getting it you haven’t really ever been religious and find religion more fitting with ignosticism that this idea of god isn’t really well defined (sorry for all the question I have just grown up in a catholic environment my whole life so this is really interesting 🙂 largely being the only doubter that expressed myself (there have been a couple other though) )

Anyways I am just curious what do you think about William Lane Craigs opening here

NOTE: The whole think is long but the opening statement is from about 8:30 to 28:30
 
I don’t understand why someone would take his arguments seriously because they are based on errors to begin with.

And yes, I repeat my ‘mantra’ because no one has bothered to refute them. And it is not just because others believe, it is because others have had direct contact or experiences with the supernatural.

I don’t discount his experience with God, I really don’t care either way. What I discount was his experience in being disappointed that God did not magically come to his rescue when he was confronted in class. God doesn’t work that way. Faith doesn’t work that way. His whole discourse sounds like the antics of a disappointed child that is really pissed off because his parent let him down at the most inopportune time.

He’s spent a lot of time and energy, trying to prove his point and trying to convince others that he is right. IF he had spent half as much energy in figuring out where he went wrong, he may have done a lot better. Being on the wrong side of Christianity played a huge part in why he got where he did.

Folks who take the Bible literally often run into those types of problems. And folks who think too much of themselves usually end up in the same boat as well.

SO yes, I guess it does gall me a bit when someone takes their so called limited experience of God, gets disappointed and rejects every faith as being a fraud. Start off with the right faith and maybe you have a fighting chance of getting it right. Start off with one in grave error and maybe you’ll get yourself into a bind as he did.
If you give value to secondhand knowledge by the level of respect you give the person giving it to you, what happens when you meet someone that you respect that is of another religion and tells you of similar experiences. If you are being intellectually honest you have to give their experiences equal weight. By your reasoning you are a Catholic because you know more Catholics than Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists,etc.

I still don’t get why you are galled, are you perturbed by other religions?
 
Start off with the right faith and maybe you have a fighting chance of getting it right. Start off with one in grave error and maybe you’ll get yourself into a bind as he did.
Isn’t it lucky that you were born into the one religion that happens to be right?
 
What I discount was his experience in being disappointed that God did not magically come to his rescue when he was confronted in class. God doesn’t work that way. Faith doesn’t work that way. His whole discourse sounds like the antics of a disappointed child that is really pissed off because his parent let him down at the most inopportune time.
Incorrect. The whole discourse is centered around Occam’s Razor. I walked through all of the evidence I had seen that the world, my life, and the events of human history, including the Bible, could have all happened without God actually existing:

youtube.com/watch?v=iQJrud71gL8&list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A

You’re entire counter-argument is based on a strawman, wcknight. God’s failure to rescue me was an emotional component, but ultimately irrelevant to the larger epistemological question of his existence.

As for not taking the Bible literally: if you don’t hold it accountable as truth in some way, then it has no more value than any other human book. If you wish to avoid holding the Bible accountable for being true, then you also forfeit the right to use it as evidence of an omniscient God. You make it irrelevant to the argument. If that is the route you wish to take, fine. We will just remove it from the question and you have even less to claim as evidence.

It appears that your only claim of evidence for God is anecdotal spiritual experience, which could be explained by the Simulacrum and other Cognitive Psychology errors like Confirmation Bias. Unless you provide clear corroborating evidence to the contrary, we have no reason to believe your personal testimonies are accurate:

youtube.com/watch?v=SbXJC6KsYWs&feature=bf_prev&list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A

So, ultimately, despite your condescending detractions, your objections have already been addressed in the series. All that time and effort I invested in the series was spent precisely to address the objections of people like you. Unless you have something better, your arguments have already been refuted.
 
Evid3nc3

I tried to do this by PM but your mailbox is full.

Since the postings are coming fast, you may have missed this. You may be choosing not to address it, which is fine as well. I thought I’d make the effort.
Even if you relegate Religion and God as a method to navigate our internal landscape and our place in the world, (a la Joseph Campbell " The Power of Myth") - it serves a valuable purpose. It has been part of the Human experience since we have a record of the Human experience. It effects us in a very fundamental way. In a way that rational thinking does not.
If you are throwing out the “God / Mystical experience” what are you replacing it with?
 
It appears that your only claim of evidence for God is anecdotal spiritual experience, which could be explained by the Simulacrum and other Cognitive Psychology errors like Confirmation Bias. Unless you provide clear corroborating evidence to the contrary, we have no reason to believe your personal testimonies are accurate:
Experience is experience. The only people capable of explaining away these experiences are those who haven’t had them. So they resort to using a crude and perhaps contrived concept with a $65 term attached. Or they force a legitimate concept to match something they simply have no means of dealing with, conceiving of, or identifying with otherwise. No one, having experienced what I’m referring to, would be naive enough to do so.
 
Experience is experience. The only people capable of explaining away these experiences are those who haven’t had them. So they resort to using a crude and perhaps contrived concept with a $65 term attached. Or they force a legitimate concept to match something they simply have no means of dealing with, conceiving of, or identifying with otherwise. No one, having experienced what I’m referring to, would be naive enough to do so.
What would tell a Buddhist that says he’s had the kind of experience that you claim to have had?
 
What would tell a Buddhist that says he’s had the kind of experience that you claim to have had?
Congratulations? The experience is so huge and overpowering-that he’d simply know that he’d been in the presence of an infinitely superior ‘other’ whose love was equally infinite. He’d know love on a previously unimagined scale. We’d both fail at attempting to use words or human concepts to describe it.
 
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