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AndyF
Guest
Non sequitur. Hating sin conveys lack of love or hate of the sinner.
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GEddie
Guest
Then it would follow that to “love” someone, you need to “love” or at least tolerate their sins.Non sequitur. Hating sin conveys lack of love or hate of the sinner.
Tell that one to our LORD.
God Bless and ICXC NIKA
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Elijah_Baley
Guest
A principle is not a technique.Strange.
CCC 2358, “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.”
Fr John A Hardon, S.J., is very good in *The Truth About Homosexuality *(The Cry of the Faithful), Ignatius, 1996.
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ignatius777
Guest
Do you REALLY need a “technique” to know how to treat people with love and respect? REALLY??? Have you never disagreed with someone whom you love? You do not know how to speak with those with whom you disagree?A principle is not a technique.
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Edward_H
Guest
One must never tolerate sin, even as one persists heroically to love the sinner. But one must never, ever adopt an attitude of toleration with respect to sin. It leads to lukewarmness and it begins to blind us to other forms of sin, greater and lesser.
When faced with sin one must work to help the sinner; if appropriate, through a fraternal correction. If the relationship is not supportive of that correction, then through fervent prayer and or acts of reparation.
When faced with sin one must work to help the sinner; if appropriate, through a fraternal correction. If the relationship is not supportive of that correction, then through fervent prayer and or acts of reparation.
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Elijah_Baley
Guest
Given that:Do you REALLY need a “technique” to know how to treat people with love and respect? REALLY??? Have you never disagreed with someone whom you love? You do not know how to speak with those with whom you disagree?
- There’s a specifically political nature of gay marriage, its moral dimension notwithstanding;
- So many fervent gay activists have been harmed and wronged by self-described Christians;
- This is the issue which most threatens schism in the American Church, at least as much as priestesses …
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The_Word
Guest
Who made you the judge? Do not bear false witness against thy neighbor is a commandment from God so it’s best if you don’t say anything at all.My thoughts.
Here’s how I see your first quotation regarding homophobia. A phobia by definition is “an obsessive and persistent fear of a specific object or situation, eg spiders, open spaces, etc, representing a form of neurosis” (Chambers Dictionary). Therefore a homophobic person is neurotic and irrational and afraid!! Often when trying to discuss homosexuality and the gay lifestyle, the dicussion ends with my being protrayed as a homophobe. This ends the discussion as the person I’m talking to generally can’t answer my points, but won’t admit it. This is exactly what the quoted sentence is saying, so what’s wrong with it.
As for the second quotation, it seems self explanatory to me.
We are called to love the sinner, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t point out errors of failings. For example, if you knew someone who was drinking too much, wouldn’t you out of love for that person try and get them to see what they are doing to themselves and their loved ones?
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Edward_H
Guest
Not a bad idea, maybe “Charity and Truth and the Five Non-Negotiables”.Given that:
At this point, I think our minimum need on this Web site is to have something written with a title as simple as “Love and Compassion and the Five Non-Negotiables.”
“Love” and “Compassion” as terms have been corrupted and defined down to meaningless relativity.
Still, it’s more than likely that posting any such statement or FAQ will not have any appreciable effect on poster behavior. Sure to follow is the ever hollow recommendation of “we need to send a message, set a tone, create an atmosphere of tolerance, compassion, diversity, respect, blah blah.” It’s a natural reflex, but it’s unfailingly infertile.
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Edward_H
Guest
Not so, how to deliver a fraternal correction is spelled out in the Bible. The emphasis is on the how not on “the whether to or not”. It needs to be done properly.Who made you the judge? Do not bear false witness against thy neighbor is a commandment from God so it’s best if you don’t say anything at all.
This nonsense about “who makes you the judge” is the source of much error in our society.
It has led some to a dangerous moral relativism, essentially choking off an otherwise God-designed feedback loop among Christians. In fact, one of the best ways that Satan seeks to grow in power is to isolate us all, to drive wedges among us closing down the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Before bothering to throw back Biblical references to “not judging” remember those had to do with making definitive claims about someone else’s eternal judgement, not about their behavior as a Christian within the Church.
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The_Word
Guest
That’s left up to the saints, not sinners who call themselves Christians. Saints are sinless and are given the authority to judge all things but sinners don’t have the truth in them to see the difference between a lie and the truth. That’s why God made this commandment to not bear false witness. One liar judging another is not from God.Not so, how to deliver a fraternal correction is spelled out in the Bible. The emphasis is on the how not on “the whether to or not”. It needs to be done properly.
This nonsense about “who makes you the judge” is the source of much error in our society.
It has led some to a dangerous moral relativism, essentially choking off an otherwise God-designed feedback loop among Christians. In fact, one of the best ways that Satan seeks to grow in power is to isolate us all, to drive wedges among us closing down the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Before bothering to throw back Biblical references to “not judging” remember those had to do with making definitive claims about someone else’s eternal judgement, not about their behavior as a Christian within the Church.
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fbl9
Guest
it is written he who says they are without sin are liars and the truth is not in them.That’s left up to the saints, not sinners who call themselves Christians. Saints are sinless and are given the authority to judge all things but sinners don’t have the truth in them to see the difference between a lie and the truth. That’s why God made this commandment to not bear false witness. One liar judging another is not from God.
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Edward_H
Guest
Not so. newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htmThat’s left up to the saints, not sinners who call themselves Christians. Saints are sinless and are given the authority to judge all things but sinners don’t have the truth in them to see the difference between a lie and the truth. That’s why God made this commandment to not bear false witness. One liar judging another is not from God.
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The_Word
Guest
It is also written that anyone born of God cannot sin anymore. You’re thinking about 1 John 1: 8 and 10, This is about religious people who think they’re born of God without admitting they’re only sinners. You have to admit you’re a sinner and ready for God to command you to confess and repent of your sins so he can forgive them. Check out verse 9 and see that after you confess and repent of your sins, God will cleanse you of all unrighteousness, which means the exact same thing as sinlessness.it is written he who says they are without sin are liars and the truth is not in them.
1 John 1:
7: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:
3: And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
29: If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him.*
1 John 3:
6: No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.
9: No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.
1 John 5:
2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
18: We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
Galations 5:
24: And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Romans 6:
20: When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21: But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death.
22: But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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The_Word
Guest
I don’t use man’s lies to learn things. God teaches me everything I know.
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GEddie
Guest
Nobody is a Saint while they still breathe naturally. Every Saint is a Sinner in this life.That’s left up to the saints, not sinners who call themselves Christians. Saints are sinless and are given the authority to judge all things but sinners don’t have the truth in them to see the difference between a lie and the truth. That’s why God made this commandment to not bear false witness. One liar judging another is not from God.
And we are not, of course, to lie to each other, but if we know of sin, (observe it or someone is lamentably boasting about it) our LORD has required us to reprove them. In a loving way of course.
GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA
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Diotima
Guest
hate the sin love the sinner isn’t a christian doctrine or taught in the bible. None of the saints said it. Ghandi, a pagan hindu created it.
That particular quote may not be in the Bible, but I believe the doctrine is. After all, how did Jesus treat the woman caught in adultery? He clearly hated and condemned her sin–her told her to go and sin no more–but he also acted with love through protecting her from violence and staying with her after the others left.I just don’t think we should put such an importance on a quote that never was taught in the Church, the bible, or quoted by the saints…
I believe there must be a way to follow Jesus’ example on the issue of homosexuality. There must be a way to protect gay teenagers from the violence and abusive language they currently suffer at school, or to protect gay adults from gratuitously cruel attacks launched by people like Fred Phelps, while at the same time telling them that we love them too much to “tolerate” their sin.
It’s true that the Catechism defines homosexual desire as a “disorder,” but that doesn’t necessarily convey hatred for the person. The dictionary defines disorder as “a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions; malady or dysfunction: a mild stomach disorder.” So, in other words, it’s similar to a disease or a disability. And we know from the Bible that disease is not always a person’s fault, for as Jesus said of the blind man in John 9:3, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him." Similarly, I think homosexual urges are not necessarily the person’s fault, and that people who suffer from them should use them for the glory of God, by showing that they can be controlled and that homosexuals can live a chaste, celibate life.
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The_Word
Guest
All the saints such as Peter, Paul, Timothy, John, etc. were dead? I didn’t realize saints could walk around and preach the gospel while they were dead.Nobody is a Saint while they still breathe naturally. Every Saint is a Sinner in this life.
And we are not, of course, to lie to each other, but if we know of sin, (observe it or someone is lamentably boasting about it) our LORD has required us to reprove them. In a loving way of course.
GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA
You must be badly mistaken to not realize that these men were sinless saints who preached the same gospel that Jesus preached.
If you’re talking about the Catholic saints, then that’s a whole different story. These saints of Christ were NOT those saints who had to die and wait 100 years to find out they were chosen to be a saint. LOL
Ephesians 1:
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6: to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
These scriptures are talking about the true saints, not Catholic sinners who were called saints a century later.
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fbl9
Guest
According to you Ananias and Sapphira were saints after all they were members (beleivers) in the early church. …but wait they sinned opps back to the drawing board for you.If you’re talking about the Catholic saints, then that’s a whole different story. These saints of Christ were NOT those saints who had to die and wait 100 years to find out they were chosen to be a saint. LOL
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Lol at you the catholic saints aren’t choosen but rather it is a declaration of their saintliness.
let’s get back to the topic my apologies to the OP:blush:
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Edward_H
Guest
Well good. Then what did you put into action based on His teaching here?I don’t use man’s lies to learn things. God teaches me everything I know.
- Matthew 18:15,
- Leviticus 19:17,
- James 5:20,
- Luke 17:3,
- 1 Timothy 5:20,
- 2 Timothy 4:2,
- Galatians 6:1,
- Proverbs 12:15,
- 2 Kings 12:1-14,
- 2 Kings 16:5-12, and
- Tobias 4:19.
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Brendan
Guest
Actually, it IS a Christian doctrine.hate the sin love the sinner isn’t a christian doctrine or taught in the bible. …
There is no sin that Christ does not hate and there is no sinner that Christ does not love. And since we are called to be Christlike, it follows that we must do the same.
But what passes for worldly ‘love’ is not the love is truely Christian.
Think about it, Christ called certain sinners " A nest of vipers". That was an infinitely loving act. It was even infinitely charitable, in the ‘caritas’ origin of the word. He overturned tables with a whip in His hand.
All of that was infinite love, it was part of loving the sinner.
A key part of love is pointing out when a brother is sinning, when they are placing their soul in mortal danger. In fact, if you truely LOVE the sinner, you cannot keep silent about it.
Christ did not, and we cannot either.
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