Poke holes in my Social Welfare Idea

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Zoltan_Cobalt said:
I pay some very smart people to make sure I pay very little in Federal and State Income Tax so I don’t mind living here at all. People at the other end of the spectrum pay no income tax and even receive cash because they don’t pay taxes…so they should be VERY happy to live here.

It is the poor schmucks in the middle who have taxes collected by their employers who don’t stand a chance.
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Still, nobody is forced to pay taxes, we are all free to leave for a greener tax jurisdiction.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Still, nobody is forced to pay taxes, we are all free to leave for a greener tax jurisdiction.
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That is partially true. We ARE all free to leave, but if we choose to stay…then we are FORCED to pay taxes.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
That is partially true. We ARE all free to leave, but if we choose to stay…then we are FORCED to pay taxes.
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Kind of like if I go to a restaurant for a meal, I am FORCED to pay for it. Nobody forces you to stay, so if you CHOOSE to stay, you CHOOSE to pay the taxes.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Kind of like if I go to a restaurant for a meal, I am FORCED to pay for it. Nobody forces you to stay, so if you CHOOSE to stay, you CHOOSE to pay the taxes.
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OK, I think I get where you are coming from…

So to avoid having a government force me to pay taxes I should move my business to a more
tax friendly government…sort of like what is happening in our country now.

The looming problem with that way of thinking is…pretty soon there will be no one paying any taxes in the country that forces citizens to pay taxes. There goes any form of social welfare.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
OK, I think I get where you are coming from…

So to avoid having a government force me to pay taxes I should move my business to a more
tax friendly government…sort of like what is happening in our country now.
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The point is, nobody is forcing you to pay taxes. There are plenty of places to move to where you won’t pay taxes. If you stay here, the taxes are the price you pay to live here.
The looming problem with that way of thinking is…pretty soon there will be no one paying any taxes in the country that forces citizens to pay taxes. There goes any form of social welfare.
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What is the problem with that?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
How is the US going to force the Cayman Islands to tax people?
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I saw an article (can’t seem to find it now) that talked about world governments imposing a minimum corporate tax rate. Seems some, as the article read, felt that its unfair that some countries have low corporate tax rates.

Point is this…if countries can get together to impose a minimum corporate tax rate, then minimum individual taxes are next.
 
shockerfan said:
I saw an article (can’t seem to find it now) that talked about world governments imposing a minimum corporate tax rate. Seems some, as the article read, felt that its unfair that some countries have low corporate tax rates.

Point is this…if countries can get together to impose a minimum corporate tax rate, then minimum individual taxes are next.
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While some governments might agree to a common tax, some governments won’t agree to a common tax.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
The point is, nobody is forcing you to pay taxes.
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The government most certainly is, forcing you and me to pay taxes.…or go to jail.

In fact a good case can be made that says the government is committing outright theft…by forcing us to pay taxes.
What is the problem with that?
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What???..:eek:

“…pretty soon there will be no one paying any taxes in the country that forces citizens to pay taxes. There goes any form of social welfare.”

You don’t see a problem…?

In keeping with the subject of this thread…government welfare is nothing more than stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
So to avoid having a government force me to pay taxes I should move my business to a more
tax friendly government…sort of like what is happening in our country now.

The looming problem with that way of thinking is…pretty soon there will be no one paying any taxes in the country that forces citizens to pay taxes. There goes any form of social welfare.
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This assumes that a large number of people and businesses will move to a more tax-friendly country. That is not necessarily the case. This is hypothetical, but suppose one country has higher taxes, but also has amenities, partly because of those taxes, that make living and working there preferable to living and working in the low-tax country. In that case prudent decision makers will decide to locate in the country with the higher tax rate.
 
social welfare could be placing people in an existing business suited to them and what they want, to learn how it all works. then to leave with state financial support to start their own business. help is either practical or continue to step over inconvenient people.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
The government most certainly is, forcing you and me to pay taxes.…or go to jail.
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If I go to a restaurant and don’t pay the bill, I can go to jail too. So the restaurant is forcing me to pay the bill as well.
In fact a good case can be made that says the government is committing outright theft…by forcing us to pay taxes.
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Since we are talking about a moral issue and Church teaching is critical when it comes to morality, can you point to where the Church teaches that taxation is theft?
What???..:eek:
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“…pretty soon there will be no one paying any taxes in the country that forces citizens to pay taxes. There goes any form of social welfare.”
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You don’t see a problem…?
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If we don’t have tax revenue, we don’t have welfare. What is the big deal? Just as if a restaurant does not have customers, it goes out of business.
In keeping with the subject of this thread…government welfare is nothing more than stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
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Or it is stealing from the poor to give to the rich, as in the case of agricultural subsidies and other forms of corporate welfare. Also, medicare and social security steal from the poor to give to the rich. That is, assuming that taxation is theft, which has not yet been established.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
This assumes that a large number of people and businesses will move to a more tax-friendly country.

That is not necessarily the case.
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According to our anti-corporation brethren, every major U.S. corporation is moving overseas to avoid taxes and hire cheap labor… 🤷
This is hypothetical, but suppose one country has higher taxes, but also has amenities, partly because of those taxes, that make living and working there preferable to living and working in the low-tax country. In that case prudent decision makers will decide to locate in the country with the higher tax rate.
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Good point.

You make a good case for “value” received in return for taxes.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
If I go to a restaurant and don’t pay the bill, I can go to jail too. So the restaurant is forcing me to pay the bill as well.
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Very true. However if you received un-edible food and poor service would you think the restaurant is justified in forcing you to pay???
Since we are talking about a moral issue and Church teaching is critical when it comes to morality, can you point to where the Church teaches that taxation is theft?
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No.

But

Saint Augustine has some interesting thoughts on the subject in his City of God he speaks of the difference between just kingdoms and great robberies.

Thomas Aquinas also makes some very good points about the morality of taxation. He says that taxation is just to the extent that it constitutes fair payment to the sovereign for services rendered, not to the extent that it provides a redistributive mechanism for succoring the poor at the expense of the non-poor.
If we don’t have tax revenue, we don’t have welfare. What is the big deal? Just as if a restaurant does not have customers, it goes out of business.
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:confused:
Or it is stealing from the poor to give to the rich, as in the case of agricultural subsidies and other forms of corporate welfare. Also, medicare and social security steal from the poor to give to the rich. That is, assuming that taxation is theft, which has not yet been established.
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Taxation is theft when the government forcibly takes our money and uses it for any services that are not constitutionally defined and limited.

Government services that provide for the common good, equally for all, are legitimate. Services that benefit one group at the expense of another constitutes theft of our income.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Saint Augustine has some interesting thoughts on the subject in his City of God he speaks of the difference between just kingdoms and great robberies.

Thomas Aquinas also makes some very good points about the morality of taxation. He says that taxation is just to the extent that it constitutes fair payment to the sovereign for services rendered, not to the extent that it provides a redistributive mechanism for succoring the poor at the expense of the non-poor.
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Where does Aquinas say that redistributive government programs are unjust?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
What does he specifically say about redistributive government policies?
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I loaned my copy of Summa Theologiæ to my daughter. She teaches Religion at a Catholic high school. They are studying Aquinas. When I get the book back I will gladly look it up for you.

I am surprised, Stinky, as a Senior Member of the forum, you should have read the “Summa”
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Government services that provide for the common good, equally for all, are legitimate. Services that benefit one group at the expense of another constitutes theft of our income.
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By that reasoning almost all government services are illegitimate. Even border security. If government spends money building a wall on the border with Mexico, that does not benefit the people of Michigan as much as those in Arizona. Money spent on extra security for the Pope’s recent visit to Washington does not benefit people in South Dakota, and arguably does not benefit anyone except the Pope. Money spent on National Parks does not benefit people who don’t care to visit them. Money spent on researching a cure for Altzheimer’s does not benefit the 20 year olds. Money spent on airports does not benefit people who are afraid to fly and always take the train. Money spent on bike trails does not benefit those who live too far from those trails to use them. I could go on and on.

Your argument is too broad. If you want to argue against social welfare programs, it is not enough to show that such programs do not immediately benefit all people exactly the same amount. For even social welfare programs can be said to benefit the rich because they might not always be rich. A rich man can fall into poverty through misfortune. Then he can benefit from those same programs. So in that sense, social welfare programs do have the potential of benefitting everyone equally.
 
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