Police: Approximately 20 dead inside Florida nightclub after mass shooting

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So lets tie all this in with the OP. A suicide jihadist as we see has a “plan” and the preponderance of them obviously do. It doesn’t matter if a gun is around “at the moment of the event”. If a gun is part of the plan they will find a gun or plan differently before the actual event. Just look at the cases of suicide jihadist. Look at actual suicides and compare.

Its like saying after the Boston bomber gained access to all the materials and built a bomb he wouldn’t have committed the deed if his bomb wasn’t around which he just built by “plan” for the event and how would it not be around somehow? 😊

When did gun access stop suicide bombers and jihadists? :confused: The foolishness is remove guns and “suicide” jihad planning and acts will stop. Which is just as untrue with suicide jihadists as it is with suicide in america.

Thanks.
 
The suicide jihadist in Orlando, slipped through the crack with a gun check for a pistol permit with his employer. He never received a clearance from the authorized Psychiatrist the security company used. Forgery, crime whatever thats HOW he slipped through. So in sequence he receives the pistol permit by accident. Thats is his ticket to ride.

In other words case closed as all other gun access was a no brainer from here. The long rifle purchase and regardless what kind of preferred model was a non issue with access after that permit. He could have went anywhere and bought anything. Basic ten minute check like a police officer running your driving licence basically. So in short its a further secondary point of what kind of rifle he might have been able to purchase? Did you say one that would kill a 300 pound man? Its quite a secondary point as you see.

The points are the radical jihad terrorists and correct check system in place on pistol permits which is serious. If you want to look at statistics, look at how many are shot with pistols opposed to long rifles. If a nut like this can get a pistol which we can’t stop people from obtaining by law, then we haven’t done anything to stop this issue. Its all propaganda.

We should discussing the “radical jihad terrorists” while gun conversations “are” mutually exclusive they are not the priority here but a “secondary” issue. The access in the initial pistol permit was the issue and pistol permits are non sequitur in relation to second amendment rights. So the further purchase of a long rifle is relevant how? And further what kind of long rifle? :confused:

Thats democrat propaganda. My secondary point is sympathy for the terrorist via “islamOphobia” which enabled this man OP and his behavior and pistol purchase.

He’s a muslim don’t say anything “IslamOphobia” and here’s a gun permit for a nut! ssshh!!
 
LeafByNiggle said:
You are still going about it in a statistically unscientific way. All these countries have different sociological and psychological conditions. Also, there is a bit of a moral problem in assuming that anyone who is inclined to kill himself is going to do it some other way if he doesn’t have a gun, so we might as well just stand aside and let him do it. And that argument doesn’t even apply to accidents - another large category of gun deaths - larger than terrorism.
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Could you give us the name of the country or countries with “sociological and psychological conditions” identical to those in the US? We’ll wait while you find another superpower almost completely populated via immigration from around the world that is still riding the socioeconomic crest from winning a World War.

Given your continued objections, it seems even more that access to guns is nowhere near as much a factor in suicide rates as sociological and psychological conditions. Otherwise, we would see an actual correlation between lack of access to firearms and suicide rates.
 
Monkey1976 said:
Could you give us the name of the country or countries with “sociological and psychological conditions” identical to those in the US?
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It was not my experimental design that said “let’s determine if guns cause more suicides by looking at suicide rates in other countries”. I just pointed out the flaw in that design. It not up to me to fix it. In fact I don’t think it can be fixed. That is why I having not been trying use such statistics to make my point. Instead I am relying on studies of individual suicide attempt survivors, and common sense knowledge about the variability of depression. Why is it so unbelievable that if suicide is delayed, the person has more of a chance to receive treatment?
 
Otherwise, we would see an actual correlation between lack of access to firearms and suicide rates.
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And with suicide jihadists of islam world wide specifically. 🤷 🙂

Like Obama said, Isis called, suicidal fundamentalist muslims from around the world to kill civilians and they kill gays in many muslim countries. And they do by plan. 🤷 Much more than that really doesn’t stop the issue.

Pressure Cookers and explosives, guns pistols cars etc, are all another tool of their trade and planning, their “m.o.” .

Just like cars buildings, trains, carbon monoxide, rope etc. Its all “m.o.” of suicide.

Of course this is all much past the actual diagnosis of the actual mental health issue as we have also discussed on this thread. Depression, emotion/mood, substance abuse, sociopath and so forth are another aspect mutually exclusive but also secondary in priority here. I posted his long history of behavior issues, whos actual DSM IV diagnosis isn’t needed. For sure we can deduce his suicidal behavior was a social issue. This guy believed he could kill gays. They -muslims have these gay issues in how many muslim countries and how much is it related to islam and in how many countries as it seems its quite orthodox and mainline muslim also.

We only need to ID the suicidal act and its plan which we did. Suicide by police for Allahs name in Isis understanding minimal, greater islam orthodox teaching quite possible. What delusional thoughts he had and to get to the basis of the point may make for further great research in the mind of a radical suicidal muslim jihadist but not quite needed here.

I hear people make grand statements he didn’t understand Islam, I can’t see how one concludes that with gay treatment in their countries. One may actually want to objectively view the world and Islam and homosexuals also.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

The dark secret of “boy play” and various sexual forbidden fruit acts permeate islam also I mean speaking behavior on a larger scale and I think we need to view Mohammed and his state on mind and wifes also,.

nowtheendbegins.com/bacha-bazi-dark-secret-life-of-islams-pedophiles-homosexuals/

Frankly if we are to admit all this behavior I cant see much difference from the OP nut and Mohammed who I am sure was his role model?

answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/pedophile.htm

So I;m quite confused world wide speaking about “islam” and gays in specifics as it seems its quite “muslim” all over the world and always was.
 
And as far as the lack of compassion committing these murders in Orlando? Again I don’t want to cite DSM V but only Mohammeds same lack of compassion in comparison as I would say its Islamic and he followed his role model. I can’t help but notice the same lack of compassion with Mohammed and the OP?
What’s more noteworthy about this event is that after she was murdered, Muhammad said “Two goats won’t butt their head about her”, meaning no one will care about her death. (Well except her children and her family).
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answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/asma.html

I would suggest Mohammed and OP had the same lacking compassion and behavior issue.
 
GaryTaylor said:
So lets tie all this in with the OP. A suicide jihadist as we see has a “plan” and the preponderance of them obviously do. It doesn’t matter if a gun is around “at the moment of the event”. If a gun is part of the plan they will find a gun or plan differently before the actual event. Just look at the cases of suicide jihadist. Look at actual suicides and compare.

Its like saying after the Boston bomber gained access to all the materials and built a bomb he wouldn’t have committed the deed if his bomb wasn’t around which he just built by “plan” for the event and how would it not be around somehow? 😊

When did gun access stop suicide bombers and jihadists? :confused: The foolishness is remove guns and “suicide” jihad planning and acts will stop. Which is just as untrue with suicide jihadists as it is with suicide in america.

Thanks.
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Americans are under the illusion that if they just withdraw into their shell, and retreat from world politics, the world will just go away.

They think that if they are nice enough and isolate themselves enough from world affairs, that the war that Islamists have declared on America and all infidels will just disappear.

That is not going to happen. Even if it were possible for a nation of the size and stature of America to withdraw into their shell, the Islamists still will kill the infidel, American infidel included.

The question is whether Americans are going to resign living with any and all future Orlandos that will be happening, and write this off as an expense of living in the modern world.
This may well be a price that Americans are willing to pay.

Other than that, the only other choice is to fight it, and that is not going to be an easy fight.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
The fact remains that keeping other factors constant, more guns leads to more suicide. I have given the reasons several times in this thread. This attempt to use South Korea to refute this conclusion is ineffective because there are other reasons for the high suicide rate is South Korea. There is every reason to believe that if guns were made more available in South Korea, the suicide rate would be much higher. The fact the people do kill themselves in other ways in no way challenges the point that gun makes it easier and more people will succumb to the temptation. The only way to establish that guns make no difference to the suicide rate would be to find two societies that are the same in every other aspect, except guns. But as others have pointed out earlier, this is impossible. In particular, I have given good reasons why South Korea is very different from the US.
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NOPE, more guns does not lead to more suicides.

There are obviously reasons for the suicide rates in different countries, but they are psychological in nature, nothing to do with means of execution. It’s a complete fabrication on your part to insist guns make it worse. The US is #18 based on the below list, Korea is just the worst example for comparison, not the only.

Country Suicide rates per 100,000 people

  1. *]South Korea 24.7
    *]Hungary 21.0
    *]Japan 19.4
    *]Belgium 18.4
    *]Finland 16.5
    *]France 14.6
    *]Austria 13.8
    *]Poland 13.8
    *]Czech Republic 12.7
    *]New Zealand 11.9
    *]Denmark 11.3
    *]Sweden 11.1
    *]Norway 10.9
    *]Slovak Republic 10.9
    *]Iceland 10.4
    *]Germany 10.3
    *]Canada 10.2
    *]United States 10.1
 
Guns? I’ll let the readers decide but after all this I would call that ignorance and lacking education and for sure with behavior as ALL of you see by now? Let me know where you disagree? 😃
 
Let’s set the way-back machine to near the beginning of this tangent:
LeafByNiggle said:
The suicide rate in the US could be much lower than other countries, except for the immediate availability of guns.
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And back to the present:
LeafByNiggle said:
It was not my experimental design that said “let’s determine if guns cause more suicides by looking at suicide rates in other countries”. I just pointed out the flaw in that design. It not up to me to fix it. In fact I don’t think it can be fixed. That is why I having not been trying use such statistics to make my point. Instead I am relying on studies of individual suicide attempt survivors, and common sense knowledge about the variability of depression. Why is it so unbelievable that if suicide is delayed, the person has more of a chance to receive treatment?
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The assertion set forth at the start of this was that the immediate availability of gun was a major factor in suicide rates. The reason for pointing out suicide rates in other first-world countries is to show that suicide rates are largely independent of gun laws. We see that multiple first-world, industrialized, democracy-based countries with far more restrictive gun laws in the US - by your argument, those where people have more of a chance to receive treatment due to the unavailability of guns - still have much higher suicide rates than the US.

Do you have any actual facts to show where this is wrong, or simply anecdotes and feelings?
 
grotto said:
No number for Russia? Where did this list come from? 🤷
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Click on the supplied link for the source.

Russia is not a member of OECD, so they aren’t included in comparisons of OECD countries. I assume membership included the requirement to report such data.
 
Theo520 said:
NOPE, more guns does not lead to more suicides.

There are obviously reasons for the suicide rates in different countries, but they are psychological in nature, nothing to do with means of execution. It’s a complete fabrication on your part to insist guns make it worse. The US is #18 based on the below list, Korea is just the worst example for comparison, not the only.

Country Suicide rates per 100,000 people

  1. *]South Korea 24.7
    *]Hungary 21.0
    *]Japan 19.4
    *]Belgium 18.4
    *]Finland 16.5
    *]France 14.6
    *]Austria 13.8
    *]Poland 13.8
    *]Czech Republic 12.7
    *]New Zealand 11.9
    *]Denmark 11.3
    *]Sweden 11.1
    *]Norway 10.9
    *]Slovak Republic 10.9
    *]Iceland 10.4
    *]Germany 10.3
    *]Canada 10.2
    *]United States 10.1
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  1. The country that is the statistically the closest to the US is the country that is also culturally and socially the closest to America, minus the Second Amendment.
 
Who locked or blocked the fire exits?

The occupants of the club should have been able to flood out of the building.
 
Darryl1958 said:
The country that is the statistically the closest to the US is the country that is also culturally and socially the closest to America, minus the Second Amendment.
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Also minus the drug gangs and also minus the black on black crime.

Are the people citizens or subjects.

Bilingual?

Important differences.
 
Has anyone here read the Koran?

Visit Amazon and get Thomas Jefferson’s book on the Koran. He was the first American who had to do battle with followers of Mohammad.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Has anyone here read the Koran?

Visit Amazon and get Thomas Jefferson’s book on the Koran. He was the first American who had to do battle with followers of Mohammad.
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Or even better idea, read it for yourself 😉

Thomas Jefferson was a great president, but the best way to understand something is to experience it yourself, not read someone else’s interpretation of it.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Has anyone here read the Koran?

Visit Amazon and get Thomas Jefferson’s book on the Koran. He was the first American who had to do battle with followers of Mohammad.
Click to expand...
Or buy a copy of Jefferson’s edited version of the Bible, to see what he thought of Christianity.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Also minus the drug gangs and also minus the black on black crime.

Are the people citizens or subjects.

Bilingual?

Important differences.
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There are important differences in culture between America and Canada.
But of all the countries on the list, Canada would be the closest to America in terms of culture.
And so, when cultural differences between countries on the list are at least partially accounted for, the rates for the country most similar to America and America itself, are virtually identical.
If the contention is that gun availability significantly increase the suicide rate, that would mean there ought to be a significantly lower rate for America than Canada.

The data doesn’t show that.
 
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