Police: Approximately 20 dead inside Florida nightclub after mass shooting

[Crossbones]

There are important differences in culture between America and Canada.
But of all the countries on the list, Canada would be the closest to America in terms of culture.
And so, when cultural differences between countries on the list are at least partially accounted for, the rates for the country most similar to America and America itself, are virtually identical.
If the contention is that gun availability significantly increase the suicide rate, that would mean there ought to be a significantly lower rate for America than Canada.

The data doesn’t show that.

There really aren’t differences in Canadian culture and American culture. Canadian culture is a copy of American culture with a preference towards winter sports and better beer. To compare statistics between Canada and the US on things like suicide is like comparing statistics between Oregon and Washington state.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

There really aren’t differences in Canadian culture and American culture. Canadian culture is a copy of American culture with a preference towards winter sports and better beer. To compare statistics between Canada and the US on things like suicide is like comparing statistics between Oregon and Washington state.

There are substantial underlying cultural differences that though subtle are substantial.
Here are some of them
Civility: Canadians are far more polite than Americans, they also say sorry so reflexively that in most provinces apologizing does not constitute an admissions of guilt.
Values: The Canadian values are Peace, Order and Good Government whereas the US has Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness.
Gov’t: The Canadian government is much more decentralised than the US, it is also much more polite and buying politicians isn’t that common
Trust: Canadians are far more trusting of government decisions than Americans who think the government is out to get them.
Law: Canada’s law system is oriented towards peace and order the US’s system is far more based on retribution.
Guns: Canada seldom permits guns for “self defence” whereas plenty of Americans think more people walking around heavily armed is great. In Canada guns are considered tools for things like hunting game.

 

[GaryTaylor]

unitednorthamerica.org/simdiff.htm

All things considered while there are differences they are somewhat minimal in comparison.

 

[Crossbones]

There are substantial underlying cultural differences that though subtle are substantial.
Here are some of them
Civility: Canadians are far more polite than Americans, they also say sorry so reflexively that in most provinces apologizing does not constitute an admissions of guilt.
Values: The Canadian values are Peace, Order and Good Government whereas the US has Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness.
Gov’t: The Canadian government is much more decentralised than the US, it is also much more polite and buying politicians isn’t that common
Trust: Canadians are far more trusting of government decisions than Americans who think the government is out to get them.
Law: Canada’s law system is oriented towards peace and order the US’s system is far more based on retribution.
Guns: Canada seldom permits guns for “self defence” whereas plenty of Americans think more people walking around heavily armed is great. In Canada guns are considered tools for things like hunting game.

So, Canada is the United States without the rude people that think everyone’s out to get them (government) so they need to be armed to the hilt.

 

[XndrK]

Or even better idea, read it for yourself

Thomas Jefferson was a great president, but the best way to understand something is to experience it yourself, not read someone else’s interpretation of it.

After reading Founding Brothers (yes, I’m plugging a book; no, I’m not a spambot), which doesn’t give any opinions either way, I for one am firmly convinced that Thomas Jefferson was nuts.

IMO.

 

[Crossbones]

After reading Founding Brothers (yes, I’m plugging a book; no, I’m not a spambot), which doesn’t give any opinions either way, I for one am firmly convinced that Thomas Jefferson was nuts.

IMO.

Sleeping with his dead wife’s half sister slave didn’t give that away for you?

 

[XndrK]

Sleeping with his dead wife’s half sister slave didn’t give that away for you?

That, for one, is an urban legend. I’ll defend him on that point.

But good grief was he weird.

 

[XndrK]

There are substantial underlying cultural differences that though subtle are substantial.
Here are some of them
Civility: Canadians are far more polite than Americans, they also say sorry so reflexively that in most provinces apologizing does not constitute an admissions of guilt.
Values: The Canadian values are Peace, Order and Good Government whereas the US has Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness.
Gov’t: The Canadian government is much more decentralised than the US, it is also much more polite and buying politicians isn’t that common
Trust: Canadians are far more trusting of government decisions than Americans who think the government is out to get them.
Law: Canada’s law system is oriented towards peace and order the US’s system is far more based on retribution.
Guns: Canada seldom permits guns for “self defence” whereas plenty of Americans think more people walking around heavily armed is great. In Canada guns are considered tools for things like hunting game.

Canada is a confederation? Hm.

Also, I for one kinda like American gun culture. Whenever I see those mall shootings all over the news I think “that wouldn’t happen here; too many people would shoot back. I mean, yeah, one or two would die, but not fifty.”

Which raises the question: Why did a nightclub with a couple hundred people in it (I presume) not have an armed guard? I mean, high school proms regularly do; how did a gay nightclub – a giant literally-flashing (as in neon lights) target for Islamist terrorists – not get the idea to put one up? Where I’m from, that’s standard procedure.

Also don’t forget milk in bags.

 

[J_Peterson]

Tolstoy did something similar with his Gospel in Brief. Believe it or not, that was a big stepping stone in me coming back to the Church. Never read Jefferson’s.

 

[J_Peterson]

Canada is a confederation? Hm.

Also, I for one kinda like American gun culture. Whenever I see those mall shootings all over the news I think “that wouldn’t happen here; too many people would shoot back. I mean, yeah, one or two would die, but not fifty.”

Which raises the question: Why did a nightclub with a couple hundred people in it (I presume) not have an armed guard? I mean, high school proms regularly do; how did a gay nightclub – a giant literally-flashing (as in neon lights) target for Islamist terrorists – not get the idea to put one up? Where I’m from, that’s standard procedure.

Also don’t forget milk in bags.

These shootings are a part of American gun culture.

There was an armed guard. Armed guards don’t do well in crowded dark spaces where there are hundreds of innocents and one killer.

 

[XndrK]

These shootings are a part of American gun culture.

There was an armed guard. Armed guards don’t do well in crowded dark spaces where there are hundreds of innocents and one killer.

One armed guard is still better than zero.

And to reiterate a point, if ten percent of the patrons of the club were themselves armed, there’d be one shooter against, I don’t know, about thirty?

 

[J_Peterson]

One armed guard is still better than zero.

And to reiterate a point, if ten percent of the patrons of the club were themselves armed, there’d be one shooter against, I don’t know, about thirty?

How many innocent people would get caught in the crossfire?

 

[XndrK]

How many innocent people would get caught in the crossfire?

Ten at most, and that’d be unlikely as there would probably be somebody within fifteen feet with a gun at pretty much all times (assuming the one in ten earlier), so aiming wouldn’t be too hard.

Heck, just brandishing the guns might force the killer to stand down.

Last point: Would you rather have a few people at risk of being killed in the crossfire as a mass murderer was stopped for good or would you rather have five minutes or more of free rein as the police rush to the scene?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Canada is a confederation? Hm.

Also, I for one kinda like American gun culture. Whenever I see those mall shootings all over the news I think “that wouldn’t happen here; too many people would shoot back. I mean, yeah, one or two would die, but not fifty.”

Which raises the question: Why did a nightclub with a couple hundred people in it (I presume) not have an armed guard? I mean, high school proms regularly do; how did a gay nightclub – a giant literally-flashing (as in neon lights) target for Islamist terrorists – not get the idea to put one up? Where I’m from, that’s standard procedure.

Also don’t forget milk in bags.

In Canada no one would die because it didn’t happen in the first place.

There was a guard, the shooter took hostages.

One armed guard is still better than zero.

And to reiterate a point, if ten percent of the patrons of the club were themselves armed, there’d be one shooter against, I don’t know, about thirty?

In such a situation I wouldn’t be surprised if the death toll passed 100

Ten at most, and that’d be unlikely as there would probably be somebody within fifteen feet with a gun at pretty much all times (assuming the one in ten earlier), so aiming wouldn’t be too hard.

Heck, just brandishing the guns might force the killer to stand down.

Last point: Would you rather have a few people at risk of being killed in the crossfire as a mass murderer was stopped for good or would you rather have five minutes or more of free rein as the police rush to the scene?

This isn’t a bright open space like a duel, this is a dark and crowded space so the muzzle flashes will ruin your vision and it is packed so difficult to get a shot, you also have to deal with the disorientation of the sound of the gunshot so accuracy is poor plus if you don’t kill the guy immediately you have return fire and then accuracy further drops. You could easily get more if you have three guys trying to shoot back in which case if people are moving each could be shooting at three targets as you lose track of who is who.

 

[XndrK]

Muzzle flashes?

I just realized we’re arguing in hypotheticals.

There is only one way to resolve this.

Fifty people, one dark room, wire flashlights to the end of some paintball guns.

You up?

 

[Monkey1976]

Muzzle flashes?

I just realized we’re arguing in hypotheticals.

There is only one way to resolve this.

Fifty people, one dark room, wire flashlights to the end of some paintball guns.

You up?

Honestly, that sounds like fun.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Muzzle flashes?

I just realized we’re arguing in hypotheticals.

There is only one way to resolve this.

Fifty people, one dark room, wire flashlights to the end of some paintball guns.

You up?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

There were ~200 people in there when it started IIRC

No, you’d need to actual guns with simunitions to better see what’d happen.

 

[XndrK]

Good night, what gun is that? I’ve been around firearms and I’ve never seen a muzzle flash that bright.

Also, just get a bunch of really bright flashlights.

And ABC News says there were 320.

 

[Theo520]

These shootings are a part of American gun culture.

There was an armed guard. Armed guards don’t do well in crowded dark spaces where there are hundreds of innocents and one killer.

Nope, the recent shooting are very unamerican, they are part of the Islamic Extremist culture.

There was a trained but timid policeman there, don’t undersell him by calling him a ‘guard’

Why do you think LEO took three hours to build up their courage and engage the shooter?

How many injured do you think bled out during their extended strategy time?

 

[TMC]

In Canada no one would die because it didn’t happen in the first place.

There was a guard, the shooter took hostages.

In such a situation I wouldn’t be surprised if the death toll passed 100

This isn’t a bright open space like a duel, this is a dark and crowded space so the muzzle flashes will ruin your vision and it is packed so difficult to get a shot, you also have to deal with the disorientation of the sound of the gunshot so accuracy is poor plus if you don’t kill the guy immediately you have return fire and then accuracy further drops. You could easily get more if you have three guys trying to shoot back in which case if people are moving each could be shooting at three targets as you lose track of who is who.

The police have conceded that some of the victims were likely shot by police during the rescuers. We will probably never know how many, because many of the police were using the same type and caliber weapon as the shooter.