Police: Approximately 20 dead inside Florida nightclub after mass shooting

[XndrK]

The police have conceded that some of the victims were likely shot by police during the rescuers. We will probably never know how many, because many of the police were using the same type and caliber weapon as the shooter.

Precisely my point. Crossfire happens. I for one would rather have 30 seconds of crossfire and a neutralized threat than a three-hour standoff with the killer running around unopposed and crossfire in the agonizingly-long runup to the end of his reign of terror.

 

[TMC]

Precisely my point. Crossfire happens. I for one would rather have 30 seconds of crossfire and a neutralized threat than a three-hour standoff with the killer running around unopposed and crossfire in the agonizingly-long runup to the end of his reign of terror.

I’d rather have neither, but I’m funny that way.

 

[XndrK]

I’d rather have neither, but I’m funny that way.

Yeah, you’re some sort of demented ultrapacifist freak.

 

[mikekle]

The police have conceded that some of the victims were likely shot by police during the rescuers. We will probably never know how many, because many of the police were using the same type and caliber weapon as the shooter.

They can determine which bullets came from which guns though, they say every gun has a distinct pattern in the barrel that will correspond to the bullet, if they want to go those lengths though.

 

[Theo520]

They can determine which bullets came from which guns though, they say every gun has a distinct pattern in the barrel that will correspond to the bullet, if they want to go those lengths though.

I also expect they used a different brand/make of ammunition, which should make it relatively easy to identify the source.

 

[Crossbones]

That, for one, is an urban legend. I’ll defend him on that point.

But good grief was he weird.

I’m not sure it is urban legend.

It’s funny, but you have to wonder what the death of his wife did to him. Sometimes, it is the strong woman that keeps a man like Jefferson normal. Also, the effect of slavery on the slaveholder.

 

[TMC]

They can determine which bullets came from which guns though, they say every gun has a distinct pattern in the barrel that will correspond to the bullet, if they want to go those lengths though.

Sometimes. But not always or even often - even assuming they want to know the answer.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Good night, what gun is that? I’ve been around firearms and I’ve never seen a muzzle flash that bright.

Also, just get a bunch of really bright flashlights.

And ABC News says there were 320.

It’s an FN Five Seven

It’s a brief frame, muzzle flash dissipates quickly, but in a dimly lit area it can be disorienting especially if there are multiple guns going off and then there is the sound. Have you ever been near 9mm handgun going off without ear protection? It is quite painful, now add dozens of it firing in close succession, dozens of rounds going off in an enclosed space will deafen you and cause a bit of pain.

Nope, the recent shooting are very unamerican, they are part of the Islamic Extremist culture.

There was a trained but timid policeman there, don’t undersell him by calling him a ‘guard’

Why do you think LEO took three hours to build up their courage and engage the shooter?

How many injured do you think bled out during their extended strategy time?

There is a reason why a lot of people thought it was a Christian doing it initially.

The shooter took hostages, what’s the man supposed to do, light them both up?

Initial reports indicated a bomb vest, given that and Islamic terrorist there were grounds for genuine concern

 

[Theo520]

There is a reason why a lot of people thought it was a Christian doing it initially.

The shooter took hostages, what’s the man supposed to do, light them both up?

Initial reports indicated a bomb vest, given that and Islamic terrorist there were grounds for genuine concern

Don’t follow your explanation on why people thought it was a Christian. His 911 call was very specific on his faith.

The shooter had fired over 50 shots at people, he was a mass murderer before the police arrived. It was never a hostage scenario.

Obviously there was grounds for concern, he shot up the place and possibly did have bombs. Still not an excuse to sit on their asses for three hours.

 

[Tomdstone]

The US has too many guns floating around and it looks to me like the American voters want it to stay that way. If the American voter really wanted to restrict and control guns, they would not be voting for people who are puppets of the NRA.

 

[XndrK]

The US has too many guns floating around and it looks to me like the American voters want it to stay that way. If the American voter really wanted to restrict and control guns, they would not be voting for people who are puppets of the NRA.

The American people don’t want to restrict and control guns (at least, in the part of America where I’m from). The entire argument is that more better-armed people means a safer society overall, as incidents can be stopped in much less time and with much fewer casualties. I am going to repeat once again that if ten percent of the 320 people in that nightclub were armed, then it would be a 32-to-1 gunfight and it’d be over in less than 30 seconds with much fewer casualties.

Besides, why wasn’t the killer blinded by his own muzzle flash?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Don’t follow your explanation on why people thought it was a Christian. His 911 call was very specific on his faith.

.

Me either. It appears as bad politics and not a point or strategy to help anything.

 

[estesbob]

Don’t follow your explanation on why people thought it was a Christian. His 911 call was very specific on his faith.

The shooter had fired over 50 shots at people, he was a mass murderer before the police arrived. It was never a hostage scenario.

Obviously there was grounds for concern, he shot up the place and possibly did have bombs. Still not an excuse to sit on their asses for three hours.

Because that fits into the left wing narrative that this attack was caused by Christian driven homophobia and lack of gun control. They are not about to let the fact the never once mentioned targeting homosexuals, was a Muslim and stated repeatedly his allegiance to ISIS get in the way of their narrative.

 

[XndrK]

Because that fits into the left wing narrative that this attack was caused by Christian driven homophobia and lack of gun control. They are not about to let the fact the never once mentioned targeting homosexuals, was a Muslim and stated repeatedly his allegiance to ISIS get in the way of their narrative.

Ed note (my name is now Edward, and will be until the end of the post): He probably went to a gay bar precisely because he had pledged allegiance to Daesh (an alternate name for ISIS which they incidentally despise because it is their Arabic acronym but it sounds like the Arabic word for “thief”). Islam is opposed to homosexuality. Militantism says “blow up the bad guy”. Militant Islam says “blow up the gay people”.

It makes sense from his (very messed up) POV.

 

[estesbob]

Ed note (my name is now Edward, and will be until the end of the post): He probably went to a gay bar precisely because he had pledged allegiance to Daesh (an alternate name for ISIS which they incidentally despise because it is their Arabic acronym but it sounds like the Arabic word for “thief”). Islam is opposed to homosexuality. Militantism says “blow up the bad guy”. Militant Islam says “blow up the gay people”.

It makes sense from his (very messed up) POV.

Then why did he not mention it once? Why dont we just take his word for why he did it?

 

[XndrK]

Then why did he not mention it once? Why dont we just take his word for why he did it?

Because it was implied … ?

 

[tomarin]

I’m not sure it is urban legend.

It’s funny, but you have to wonder what the death of his wife did to him. Sometimes, it is the strong woman that keeps a man like Jefferson normal. Also, the effect of slavery on the slaveholder.

I had thought this was an unequivocal fact but apparently it’s never been proven conclusively. Based on what we do know - especially that he freed all of her children upon his death - I’d say it seems likely though, so in my opinion more than an urban legend.

On the topic of the thread, I heard a very sad story on NPR over the weekend that there are all these unclaimed cars parked around the club that probably belonged to some of the victims of the massacre.

 

[estesbob]

Because it was implied … ?

Implied in what way?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The American people don’t want to restrict and control guns (at least, in the part of America where I’m from). The entire argument is that more better-armed people means a safer society overall, as incidents can be stopped in much less time and with much fewer casualties. I am going to repeat once again that if ten percent of the 320 people in that nightclub were armed, then it would be a 32-to-1 gunfight and it’d be over in less than 30 seconds with much fewer casualties.

Besides, why wasn’t the killer blinded by his own muzzle flash?

Again, with that many people shooting the casualties would have been higher because you’d have way more bullets flying around and even after the shooter has been shot how do the 32 people know that? they’d keep shooting each other if the field is even close to random and any of them are moving.

If person A holds a flashlight and points it in the eyes of person B, why does only person B get blinded? Because person B isn’t looking into the light. It also didn’t matter how well he could see, he wasn’t aiming for a specific person, he was aiming at a mass of people dense enough that he would be extremely likely to hit someone even if he didn’t hit who he was aiming at, it’s like bowling, with one of those ramps that serve as a handicap, if you aim a ball straight at the center of a fresh stack you are almost guaranteed to hit one even if not necessarily that one.

 

[XndrK]

Okay, I got caught up in argument-by-hypothetical, but I’m going to offer one last simple argument (because I’m a jerk). When was the last time you heard an incident in the news of a mass-death-by-crossfire event? (You haven’t heard of successful self-defense because it was successful, and one death is a lot less sensational than fifty.)

I still need fifty people, some paintball guns with flashlights, and a darkened room.