Poll: California Catholics strongly support homosexual unions

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From a statistical standpoint, there are many ways that this data could be flawed. The total sample size is only 3,000, out of ? millions of registered voters in CA. We have no idea how many of the 3,000 are catholics, and as others have pointed out, whether they go to church regularly. The total number of catholics could be so low as to make the data insignificant. The percentages quoted without the raw data and statistical analyses are meaningless. In short, I am unimpressed and unable to form an opinion on what this survey means. If it does reflect the opinions of many California Catholics it is sad that so many do not embrace or understand church teaching. Will keep praying for them, and for society given the recent turn of events.

Gayle
 
This may be key. Past surveys have shown that individuals tend to continue to identify as Catholic even if they rarely, or never attend, Mass.
Exactly my thoughts. They remaining percent are not actually Catholic. If you don’t practice your faith you’re really not what you’re claiming. We just don’t like offending people so we don’t say anything about it. We continue to let them identify while hoping they’ll return home one day.

The world is going to pot.
 
I am not from the US but have read about what about what has been happening in California re same sex marriages. I am sure you must know that countries with largely Catholic populations have allowed same sex marriages. I do not think any right thinking Christian would agree to same sex church marriages and certainly do not see it right to tout same sex relationships as normal. Saying that I cannot imagine what life must be for a person having homosexual inclinations, it must be hard.Is it wrong to give gay couples all the legal rights a heterosexual couple has like property rights ? It does not have to be a same sex marriage law but perhaps a federal civil union law. Why would it be wrong for a Catholic/Christian to support such a civil union law? Wouldn’t it be in linewith hristian charity?
 
… Why would it be wrong for a Catholic/Christian to support such a civil union law? Wouldn’t it be in linewith hristian charity?
It is not charitable to facilitate sinful behavior.

It would be wrong for anyone to support legal recognition of same-sex unions. Why? Because same-sex marriage and civil unions would [ultimately] have the effect of leaving men completely without standing in society. Read the argument here americandaily.com/article/20404 .

Also see companion article here newswithviews.com/Usher/david61.htm .

"The indispensable condition of our personal spiritual survival, and of the survival of our nation, is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we keep saying NO.”

"… what started as a demand for basic civil rights has mutated into a liberal demand to overturn the whole society, along with its traditions and norms, its standards and laws, its history and heroes.”

– L. Auster

“Democracy in practice degrades to tyranny by dedicated minorities.” – Unknown
 
It is not charitable to facilitate sinful behavior.

It would be wrong for anyone to support legal recognition of same-sex unions. Why? Because same-sex marriage and civil unions would [ultimately] have the effect of leaving men completely without standing in society. Read the argument here americandaily.com/article/20404 .

Also see companion article here newswithviews.com/Usher/david61.htm .

"The indispensable condition of our personal spiritual survival, and of the survival of our nation, is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we keep saying NO.”

"… what started as a demand for basic civil rights has mutated into a liberal demand to overturn the whole society, along with its traditions and norms, its standards and laws, its history and heroes.”

– L. Auster

“Democracy in practice degrades to tyranny by dedicated minorities.” – Unknown
I was not talking about facilitating sinful behaviour. I am talking about legislating legal civil rights whch some would say is theirs anyway. Its not about allowing homosexual behaviour. Do you really think you are stopping homosexual activity by not alowing them civil rights? Should a man who engages in extramarital affairs be also denied civil rights then? We are all sinners.

Why men only? Why would men lose their standing?

Liberal values are not all bad. Perhaps we should all be more liberal with our charity and compassion. Christ was.

No one can force his morals and values on another. We can still stand firm on the Church’s and our position that same sex activity is not normal We are not approving their behaviour by giving them rights.

As I said I am not from the US so I can’t comment on the survival of the US re your quote.
 
It would be wrong for anyone to support legal recognition of same-sex unions. Why? Because same-sex marriage and civil unions would [ultimately] have the effect of leaving men completely without standing in society. Read the argument here
erm… there is no argument for that position in either of the articles (which appear to be identitical.) Instead, the author merely asserts the claim, without any explanation of why he thinks so.
No one can force his morals and values on another.
I am not so sure about that. Many laws have moral basis, or regulate morals. For example, laws limiting abortion or state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. Economic sanctions imposed on other countries sometimes have to do with the perceived injustice of those governments, rather than a direct impact on our own country’s well-being.
 
erm…

I am not so sure about that. Many laws have moral basis, or regulate morals. For example, laws limiting abortion or state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. Economic sanctions imposed on other countries sometimes have to do with the perceived injustice of those governments, rather than a direct impact on our own country’s well-being.
I don’t disagree with you there. What I meant was that a person of any character would hold on to his own morals and values whatever the circumstances in response to Sedonamn’s quoting about spiritual survival and the survival of the US and about democracy.
 
I was not talking about facilitating sinful behaviour. I am talking about legislating legal civil rights whch some would say is theirs anyway. Its not about allowing homosexual behaviour.
I don’t know what country you are from, but in the U.S., laws are made to 1) encourage the desirable, and 2) discourage the undesirable. Marriage is not a civil right. Here again, in the U.S., the government is charged with protecting a person’s rights. If I want to marry, and no woman will marry me, should the government force one into marriage with me just to ensure a supposed “right”? Of course not, and that’s why marriage is not a right: government cannot ensure it.
Do you really think you are stopping homosexual activity by not alowing them civil rights?
This is a different question altogether; but let me say that you don’t stop an activity [or even reduce it] by encouraging it. IOW, activity that is rewarded is likely to be repeated.
Should a man who engages in extramarital affairs be also denied civil rights then? We are all sinners.
Nor is adultery a civil right, but just you wait.
Why men only? Why would men lose their standing?
YOU DIDN’T READ THE ARTICLE.
Liberal values are not all bad. Perhaps we should all be more liberal with our charity and compassion. Christ was.
Liberalism is a sin. Not that you’ll read it, liberalismisasin.com .
No one can force his morals and values on another.
This is an absurd statement, for the law is the codification of values and morals. You must legislate morality . . . Think what a law is. It is, in fact, the imposition of morality. After all, a law states that there is something you must do or something you must not. This implies that the “something” is defined as being a moral imperative, morally wrong or right according to some moral standard. This is indisputable, for if something isn’t a moral imperative, why force people to do it? And if something isn’t morally wrong, why prevent people from doing it? In the end, someone’s [or some group’s] concept of right and wrong will be imposed on society, for we must have laws. Why else do you think liberals fight so hard to get elected and pass laws mandating their agenda?
We can still stand firm on the Church’s and our position that same sex activity is not normal. …
If there is a more absurd statement, I’d like to know what it is. It is even more absurd than the one above. If it is not normal, why would we approve of it? Catholics are charged with building a more just society, as liberals are so fond of reminding us, but you don’t do it by supporting what has been declared by the Church to be an intrinsic evil, nor by ostracizing and isolating men from society.
 
erm… there is no argument for that position in either of the articles (which appear to be identitical.) Instead, the author merely asserts the claim, without any explanation of why he thinks so.
I guess I’m going to have to post it.
… America has unsuccessfully wrestled with welfare problems for years, and so has the National Organization for Women. Their plan is to reform welfare by creating the married two-mother “super-family”, making the economics of the traditional “two-parent” family work for any two-mother married household regardless of sexual preference.
I call this arrangement a “super-family” because it would have six sources of income: the incomes of two married mothers, two sets of child-support orders, and two sets of welfare entitlements. Heterosexual marriages have only two incomes, and would clearly be an economically inferior choice.
Why Same-Sex Marriage And Civil Unions Would Be Highly Destructive Of Society

It is important to realize that there is essentially no structural difference between same-sex marriage and “civil unions” as permitted in some jurisdictions. In both cases, women can segregate and form “super-families”, and men can do nothing about it.
With a present divorce rate of over 50%, and approximately 25% of mothers being unmarried, we can predict that when word gets around the gossip networks, we will see a rush towards married two-mother households, with live-out boyfriends being relegated to stud duty.
Deconstruction of fatherhood since 1960 has resulted in very large numbers of young men not becoming a part of society. Approximately half of men are removed from their families, with little or no cause, usually over their strident objections. Their sons often don’t finish high school, don’t go to college, don’t integrate into the workplace, and often end up in the underground economy and prison. This expands the belief that men are bad which, in turn, fortifies radical feminist policy seeking total control of society, family, and economic resources to [by] women.
Same-sex marriage would create the perfect gender-segregated two-tiered society in the eyes of feminists. This model is already largely in place due to divorce and the welfare/child-support state. It is lacking only the false “right” for any two women to marry each other [not just lesbians]. The history of entitled “women’s choice” indicates same-sex marriage and civil unions will accelerate the demise of traditional families far beyond the startling numbers we have seen during the past forty years.
It should be noted that once a super-family is established, there would be no need for the two women to actually live together.
 
I guess I’m going to have to post it.
First of all, the quote you provided does not come from the links you mentioned earlier. I am not sure what your source for it is.

Second, the “super family” claim is… rather far-fetched. It seems a very fanciful notion.

And, again, one not supported by any evidence.
 
First of all, the quote you provided does not come from the links you mentioned earlier. I am not sure what your source for it is.
Apparently, the article was replaced by one that is shorter. I have not checked this one word-for-word, but it has more detail mensnewsdaily.com/archive/u-v/usher/2004/usher022404.htm .
Second, the “super family” claim is… rather far-fetched. It seems a very fanciful notion.
I remember back in the late '60s when gays said all they wanted was to be left alone; homosexual “marriage” was not even mentioned but would have been a fanciful notion then. It is clear that even if they were granted “marriage”, it will not be the last of their demands; in fact we have it from the horse’s mouth:

firstthings.com/on_the_square_entry.php?year=2006&month=8&title_link=robert-george-beyond-gay-marri
and,
townhall.com/columnists/AustinNimocks/2008/10/20/finally,_straight_talk_from_the_homosexual_agenda
And, again, one not supported by any evidence.
You said,
… the author merely asserts the claim, without any explanation of why he thinks so.
You didn’t ask for evidence; you asked for an explanation of why he thinks so.

Be that as it may, over forty years have passed since the infamous Stonewall riots of 1969 in New York, the Lexington and Concord of the gay liberation movement. During that time, homosexuals have carved out for themselves public spaces in every major American city, and many of the minor ones as well. They have had the chance to create whatever they wanted in those spaces, and what have they created? New spaces for locating sexual partners.
 
Apparently, the article was replaced by one that is shorter. I have not checked this one word-for-word, but it has more detail mensnewsdaily.com/archive/u-v/usher/2004/usher022404.htm
I am beginning to thinks this discussion is hopeless Again, there is no evidence for some “super family” conspiracy orchestrated by the National Organization of Women. Nor any evidence to support the claim that gay marriage will make men irrelevant in society.

.
sedonaman;6923280:
I remember back in the late '60s when gays said all they wanted was to be left alone; homosexual “marriage” was not even mentioned but would have been a fanciful notion then. It is clear that even if they were granted “marriage”, it will not be the last of their demands; in fact we have it from the horse’s mouth:
This shouldn’t surprise you, but gays and lesbians are not organized into a formal structure like the Catholic Church. There is no gay pope or gay catechism or gay “agenda.” Gays and lesbians are individuals. Some may belong to gay oriented organizations just as Catholics may belong to Catholic oriented organizations. But such organizations do not direct policy or goals of all gays and lesbians. They represent only the views of their members.
 
Exactly my thoughts. They remaining percent are not actually Catholic. If you don’t practice your faith you’re really not what you’re claiming. We just don’t like offending people so we don’t say anything about it. We continue to let them identify while hoping they’ll return home one day.
To the contrary; they are actually Catholic, if you believe the Church. Committing sins makes you a sinning Catholic, not an ex-Catholic.
 
Yeah, a sin according to one ultramontane Spaniard’s opinion. Don’t believe everything you read.
I guess you missed the the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

"The indispensable condition of our personal spiritual survival, and of the survival of our nation, is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we keep saying NO.”

"… what started as a demand for basic civil rights has mutated into a liberal demand to overturn the whole society, along with its traditions and norms, its standards and laws, its history and heroes.”

– L. Auster

“Democracy in practice degrades to tyranny by dedicated minorities.” – Unknown
 
I am beginning to thinks this discussion is hopeless.
That’s because there is no justification for same-sex “marriage”.
Again, there is no evidence for some “super family” conspiracy orchestrated by the National Organization of Women.
It’s fairly well on its way, as the author observes.
Nor any evidence to support the claim that gay marriage will make men irrelevant in society.
In 1969, there was no evidence that homosexuals would be clamoring for “marriage” in 2010. I think you completely ignored what they themselves are saying.
This shouldn’t surprise you, but gays and lesbians are not organized into a formal structure like the Catholic Church. There is no gay pope or gay catechism or gay “agenda.” Gays and lesbians are individuals. Some may belong to gay oriented organizations just as Catholics may belong to Catholic oriented organizations. But such organizations do not direct policy or goals of all gays and lesbians. They represent only the views of their members.
They have been able to move their cause very far in 40 short years. They have been able to defeat the will of the people so plainly expressed in vote after vote, and gotten state constitutional amendments declared unconstitutional. That alone shows how powerful they are. They might not have as large a structure as the Catholic Church, but they are organized; and their influence is far beyond what their numbers would justify. Full societal acceptance, if not endorsement, of homosexuality is the current cause célèbre in today’s academia, where ideas begin and migrate out to the society at large, and where Christianity is, paraphrasing Dolly Parton, the illegitimate child at a family reunion. To get an idea of how organized they are, google “gay lobby”; you will find 25,000 hits. One of the first is findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_7_16/ai_59643119 which lists some of their organizations and their influence.
 
You never answered my question in #54,
Were you addressing me? Your question in #54 asked who Fr. Corapi is. That’s what I asked; I’d never heard of him. So, surely you’re not asking me.:confused:
 
To be a" Catholic" is to be in complete agreement not only about the faith, but about how non-Catholics must behave. Regardless of the Constitution.

So a Patriotic American Catholic is an oxymoron?
 
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