Poll on contraception

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Escabrosa said:
Contraception also helps facilitate adultery
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This can be true, but I think it’s also true of a lot of other things that are morally neutral (e.g. phones.)

I do think contraceptives, and their widespread use, do encourage promiscuous behavior, or at least remove a disincentive. A reduction of risk is seen as an elimination of risk, and our society has an understanding that sex is just something we do for fun, that should be no different than just scratching an itch. We’re baffled when this turns out not to be the case.
 
It’s baffling to see so many catholics support or downplay the intrinsic evil of contraception in the most subtle ways. Perhaps the ones that support or downplay contraception counsel others to use it or use it themselves.
 
BlackFriar said:
Why couldn’t this type of thinking be applied to marriage…“I only want you for your baby” (eg Prince Charles) or “Marriage legitimates sex”. Still objectification…so maybe its not a good argument for all contracepting.
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Yes, there are other problems, but we’re talking about contraception and the dangers of it. I referenced only one of the many concerns, and one of those concerns is the objectification of the spouses permitting sexual immorality.
…A man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection. -Humanae Vitae
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When people mistreat marriage the way that you referenced, this is also a concern and a violation of charity and justice, but it doesn’t now give license to use contraception, nor is it the common crisis. The Church is very clear on this.

I don’t want to misread you or put words in your mouth, but you had mentioned that you are a deacon. Are you a deacon that also supports contraception?
 
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Thanks for sharing your experience. We have similar experience with the pitfalls of contraception earlier in our marriage, unfortunately.
 
If you’re so weirded out by Christianity why do you continue to list yourself as “Catholic” in your profile?
 
gcshapero said:
Yes, there are other problems, but we’re talking about contraception and the dangers of it. I referenced only one of the many concerns, and one of those concerns is the objectification of the spouses permitting sexual immorality.
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The point is your logic is flawed. Just because something can lead to objectification does not mean it always and everywhere does. You need a better argument if this was meant to explain the alleged intrinsic evil of merely using contraceptives.
 
That might be so but possibly “objectifying” is not the reason why contracepting is intrinsically evil.
 
BlackFriar said:
The point is your logic is flawed. Just because something can lead to objectification does not mean it always and everywhere does. You need a better argument if this was meant to explain the alleged intrinsic evil of merely using contraceptives.
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Keep in mind this isn’t directly my own personal position, this is what the Church has expressed for centuries, though Humanae Vitae is the most recent document that goes into depth with this.

It was one of the arguments, not the only one, but a very important one because it compromises the essential elements of marriage.

I’m trying to understand your position. How do you justify being a Catholic deacon and also supporting something that goes directly against Church teaching?
 
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gcshapero said:
How do you justify being a Catholic deacon and also supporting something that goes directly against Church teaching?
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He’s not going against Church teaching. He’s actually stating a fact.

Just because something occurs in certain scenarios doesn’t mean it’s always that way. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

That’s a pretty neutral statement and has nothing to do with Church teaching. It happens to be true. Not everyone who uses birth control is allowing themselves to be led astray or uses it as an excuse to have an affair or to sleep around - and to think that is unfair, especially to other Christians who don’t hold the same beliefs as us.
 
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gcshapero said:
this is what the Church has expressed for centuries,
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I doubt it.
But i am open to being surprised with a few Magisterial quotes from the 1800s that contraception always and everywhere objectifies the other any more than getting married for legitimate sex does?
 
Pup7 said:
He’s not going against Church teaching. He’s actually stating a fact.

Just because something occurs in certain scenarios doesn’t mean it’s always that way. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

That’s a pretty neutral statement and has nothing to do with Church teaching. It happens to be true. Not everyone who uses birth control is allowing themselves to be led astray or uses it as an excuse to have an affair or to sleep around - and to think that is unfair, especially to other Christians who don’t hold the same beliefs as us.
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I haven’t heard a single fact. Is he against contraception? Is he in favor of it? He’s arguing against those who acknowledge the Church’s position on it, so if he’s with the Church’s position that contraception is intrinsically evil, then he’s wasting our time when arguing.

St. Augustine called it “wicked.” I trust St. Augustine’s words more than his.

It could be that I’m just not sure where he stands on this. If he is entirely against contraception but just doesn’t agree with the one reason why that I mentioned, then we’re likely on the same page.

If he’s neutral to or in favor of it, then that does go against official Church teaching. It was presented in the Didache, by St. Augustine, in Scriptures with Onan (it was traditionally called Onanism), by St. Augustine, by Pope Paul VI, and continuing on.

I never claimed it was always the case, but in action, that is in fact what is happening when contraception takes place, whether directly or indirectly. I’m not saying it is the only reason nor am I saying it’s always the reason (not directly), but it is ONE of the reasons.
 
What he said was contraception doesn’t automatically lead someone to sin, for the most part.

He hasn’t said he’s against it - just that stating that isn’t correct. And it’s not. Just because you think something causes X doesn’t mean X happens in every case, no matter what we believe.
BlackFriar said:
I doubt it.

But i am open to being surprised with a few Magisterial quotes from the 1800s that contraception always and everywhere objectifies the other any more than getting married for legitimate sex does?
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He said this as well. He’s right. Contraception does not always objectify. It’s an unprovable assumption.

Actually being a morally neutral item it can’t.
 
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Welcome.
I think you need to provide a reasoned argument if you want to be heard on CAF, especially if you are a Protestant member. (Keep in mind that raw Scriptural quotes won’t work well here either.)
 
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BlackFriar said:
I think you need to provide an argument if you want to be heard on CAF, especially if you are a Protestant member.
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Fair enough, but I’m a Catholic.

I’ll be careful with how I word it – perhaps the more proper wording is “Always wrong.” Contraception is always wrong, though I thought that meant sin regardless (though perhaps the ignorance of it would means venial).

Here’s what I’m citing:
CCC paragraphs 2370 and 2399
The Didache (section two, II)
Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI
The Paidagogos by St. Clement
Adversus Haereses Panarium paragraphs 41 and 339
St. Augustine in Confessions
The 2nd Council of Braga canon 77
In Libros Sententiarum by St. Thomas Aquinas

This isn’t all of them, but would you count these as valid sources?
 
gcshapero said:
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BlackFriar:
I think you need to provide an argument if you want to be heard on CAF, especially if you are a Protestant member.
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Fair enough, but I’m a Catholic.

I’ll be careful with how I word it – perhaps the more proper wording is “Always wrong.” Contraception is always wrong, though I thought that meant sin regardless (though perhaps the ignorance of it would means venial).

Here’s what I’m citing:
CCC paragraphs 2370 and 2399
The Didache (section two, II)
Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI
The Paidagogos by St. Clement
Adversus Haereses Panarium paragraphs 41 and 339
St. Augustine in Confessions
The 2nd Council of Braga canon 77
In Libros Sententiarum by St. Thomas Aquinas

This isn’t all of them, but would you count these as valid sources?
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I was replying to Sola Scriptura.
For some reason icons often don’t come up when I reply to posts.
Weird.
 
LittleFlower378 said:
It is a morality issue. There is up to a 20 percent chance the child can be aborted from the use of the pill.
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This is incorrect.

If you look at the data and studies, the first “phase” is the attempt to prevent ovulation. The success rate of this part is somewhere between 90% and 99% (depending upon which study is correct), ruling out 20% of any “other”.

The second “phase” is making the path host to the male seed. I don’t know whether there are estimates for the fraction of the tie this is successful.

The third and final phase is not abortifact, but rather making the uterus hostile to implantation (so contra-implantation, which is just as evil). (this is the case with all progesterone methods).

The first two are serious moral issues based on Catholic teaching. The third is the taking of life. Horrific, but not 20%.

hawk
 
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