Poll saying white Catholics embrace same-sex marriage than other Americans

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  • A single man or woman who adopts a child would not fit into your narrow parameters. If my DH and I did not have “offspring,” we would not be considered a family since we would not be a mother and father. If my MIL lived with me after my DH died, we would not be a family. If my DH died and I lived with my cousin, who had also been widowed, we would not be a family, either.
Yet society would consider all of the above to be families.
I provided examples, not did an exhaustive delineation of the family in Natural Law.
**There are a great many people who feel that a government which prevents them from committing themselves in marriage to the person they love is indeed depriving them of their right to happiness.
There are a great many people who feel that a government which prevents them from driving at 90 mph is depriving them of their right to happiness.

Why is that relevant? Laws are not made to please people.

.
 
Quite the opposite actually. I’m more secure and sure of my faith than ever before. Listening to my cousin, my other gay family members, my mom’s boss/former priest, and getting to know them has led me, and obviously many others to accept same-sex marriage.
Your opinion, your “truth,” is the epitome of moral relativism, and as you dismiss objective truth, be aware that the rejection of one teaching leads to the rejection of another until one can lose their faith altogether.
 
Single people should not be allowed to adopt when there are plenty of married couples trying to adopt. A child should not be subjected to not having a mother and father due to a choice. Death is one thing, but choosing to raise a child without a mother or father is wrong.

The rest of what you typed is simply silly. The natural law recognizes extended families.

The problem here is what is the PRIMARY purpose of marriage? Who is the marriage for? The husband and wife, or the children? The primary purpose of marriage is to have BIRTH children. A man and a woman who are not open to having children, should not be getting married (it is very different when they want kids, but can’t). This is why divorce is wrong, it hurts the kids. Marriage is not about love & happiness. If it was, then divorce would be totally cool. Of course, we want to have love & happiness in our marriages, and that’s why it’s important to select the correct spouse… but that’s not the primary reason. The primary reason is to settle down and raise a family. Not 2.5 kids, but a real family, as many as God grants.

But instead, today, we glorify sex. Fornication was all over the TV, and now we act like fornication is no big deal, we act like it’s not a mortal sin. Now we have two gay men taking a shower together, open lip kissing on Days of Our Lives! Soon, we will have more kids experimenting with bi-sexuality, group sex, etc. What percentage of the world is homosexual? 1% maybe? We, why does it seem like it’s growing? Also, if it’s not environmental… why was it that we had one girl on American Idol who was adopted by two lesbians become a lesbian herself? If homosexuality was 100% biological, then those odds must have been higher than winning the lottery that two lesbians could adopt a girl who would biologically become a lesbian.

No, this is why children need BOTH mom and dad. So they can learn correctly about gender. So they can role play. Daughters pretend to be their moms and sons pretending to be like dad. Then, they also learn to respect the other sex based on the interactions of their parents with each other and them.

Back in my cafeteria catholic days, I used to think gay marriage didn’t hurt anyone. But now, I’m starting to see the social ills that fornication, contraception, abortion, co-habitation, no-fault divorce and same-sex marriage all have on society. ** Our since of morality has been greatly altered due to this and we are losing our holiness.**

In closing, let’s remember what Our Lady taught us… sexual sin may be the lesser of all mortal sins, but it leads more people to hell than any other sins.
**Good post! ** And rather frightening to think that society could be so greatly influenced by so few homosexuals that the majority, especially Catholics, buy into their lies. I’ve noticed how quickly gays want to admit, even on a public forum, that they are gay. Are they seeking help (mostly NOT) but rather argument and justification as they attempt to sway our opinion that it is a normal state of being.
 
Second reading
From a sermon On Pastors by Saint Augustine, bishop
Do whatever they tell you, but do not follow what they do

Shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. But what are the shepherds to hear? Thus says the Lord God: Behold I myself am over the shepherds, and I will claim my sheep from their hands.

Hear and learn, you sheep of God. God calls for an accounting of his sheep from the wicked shepherds and inquires into the death of his sheep at their hands. For in another passage he speaks through the same prophet: Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel. You shall hear the word from my mouth and you shall point out the way to them in my name. When I say to the sinner: You shall die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked man from his wicked way, because of his wickedness he shall die, but you shall be held responsible for his death. If, however, you warn the wicked man to turn away from his wickedness, and he fails to do so, he shall die in his iniquity, but you shall have saved your soul.

Dear brothers, what does this mean? Do you see how dangerous it is to keep silent? The sinner dies and rightly so; he dies in his wickedness and in his sin, for his failure to heed you has killed him. He could have found the Lord, the living shepherd who says: I live. But he was heedless; and the one appointed for this task, the watchman, did not warn him. The wicked one then justly suffers death and the watchman rightly suffers damnation. But the Lord says, if you say to the wicked man: You shall surely die, and if he fails to heed the sword of judgment with which I have threatened him, that sword will overtake and kill him, and he will die in his sin; but you will have saved your soul. Therefore it is our task not to keep silent, and it is your task, even if we ourselves are silent, to hear the words of the shepherd from the Scriptures.



Peace
Thank you for posting that. I just finished that reading was thinking how much it applies to this thread .
 
**Good post! ** And rather frightening to think that society could be so greatly influenced by so few homosexuals that the majority, especially Catholics, buy into their lies. I’ve noticed how quickly gays want to admit, even on a public forum, that they are gay. Are they seeking help (mostly NOT) but rather argument and justification as they attempt to sway our opinion that it is a normal state of being.
As I often remind people, the onslaught of normalizing homosexual acts comes not primarily from homosexuals, but from ideologically-addled heterosexuals. Please read this from “Joe K.” a Catholic with same-sex attraction (but determined to live according to the truth) and remember it when you here yet another “I’m not gay, but…” response (my emphasis):

–You’d think most pressure comes from the gay community, and a certain amount of it kind of does, but it’s actually mostly from the straight community. They gay community always reacts kind of “hurt” (like Leah points out here) when you discuss sexual ethics or say I refuse to live that way, etc. It’s like your not doing what they’re doing is the strongest judgment of them that exists. And in a Certain way it is, but it’s not; I don’t talk with gay people that much, and I pretty much stay out of the debates not on the internet. What I find a little interesting is that there’s this certain level on insecurity and guilt about it. I think, in some ways, homosexuals recognize that it’s Not impossible to not live the life they’re living. I think that’s usually the way their lives are justified to themselves: “I can’t Live, it’s Impossible, without this outlet; I Cannot Be Wrong if the alternative is death.”

The worst, by far, are heterosexuals, who are all about gay rights, though. This may be because they are the majority, but in a certain way I think it’s deeper than that. I think their defending of homosexuals is driven by a couple things. One, it comes from this weird perverted notion that you always have to protect the weak and “not judge” No Matter What. It’s derived, I think, from Christian notions of love, but it has to turned into this terrible monster known as modern liberalism. It’s actually become the case that defending the weak is more important than identifying the truth. This whole idea is rampant, and it’s pretty much suffocating to any real discussion on moral issues. “Don’t judge! What makes your life any better! You’re just filled with hate!” etc. etc. etc. Everyone has to be equal, no matter the stakes, no matter what. If you imply Anything to the contrary, you’re basically Hitler who wants to kill all gay people. And while this push is definitely from the gay community (it’s how they gain their power), it’s most strong (and most despicable) from straight people. It’s despicable because they don’t know what they’re doing. They just bandwagon on someone else’s slave morality to the degradation of everything around them. And worst of all, they’re Zealous about it. They get mad, scary mad about it.

The second reason heterosexuals provide so much pressure against moral living is similar to the reason gay people do. A person who espouses Any sexual ethics (literally at all), is assaulting their own lifestyle. Because, let’s face it, heterosexuals are just as bad, or worse, about sexual purity than homosexuals. I basically know no people who don’t cohabitate. I basically know no people who haven’t sought relationships Just For The Sex. A friend of mine was asking which girl he should date. He explained their strengths and weaknesses to me. I told him to date the one he thinks he could marry. He laughed, looked at me like I was crazy, and then the conversation got awkward. That’s really the only sentence I said to him; I didn’t push anything, I wasn’t being preachy about it; I honestly thought that was the best, most rational advice. But it wasn’t even on his radar. And he’s a pretty decent person too. No, any talk about sexual ethics is an assault on almost All people. And that’s not cool. It’s way too hard to live your life moral with respect to sex. It’s also way too philosophical. With other things you can see external results more quickly and more clearly. Stealing has clear effects, as does lying. But having sex with your girlfriend? What’s wrong with that.–
 
As I often remind people, the onslaught of normalizing homosexual acts comes not primarily from homosexuals, but from ideologically-addled heterosexuals. Please read this from “Joe K.” a Catholic with same-sex attraction (but determined to live according to the truth) and remember it when you here yet another “I’m not gay, but…” response (my emphasis):

–You’d think most pressure comes from the gay community, and a certain amount of it kind of does, but it’s actually mostly from the straight community. They gay community always reacts kind of “hurt” (like Leah points out here) when you discuss sexual ethics or say I refuse to live that way, etc. It’s like your not doing what they’re doing is the strongest judgment of them that exists. And in a Certain way it is, but it’s not; I don’t talk with gay people that much, and I pretty much stay out of the debates not on the internet. What I find a little interesting is that there’s this certain level on insecurity and guilt about it. I think, in some ways, homosexuals recognize that it’s Not impossible to not live the life they’re living. I think that’s usually the way their lives are justified to themselves: “I can’t Live, it’s Impossible, without this outlet; I Cannot Be Wrong if the alternative is death.”

The worst, by far, are heterosexuals, who are all about gay rights, though. This may be because they are the majority, but in a certain way I think it’s deeper than that. I think their defending of homosexuals is driven by a couple things. One, it comes from this weird perverted notion that you always have to protect the weak and “not judge” No Matter What. It’s derived, I think, from Christian notions of love, but it has to turned into this terrible monster known as modern liberalism. It’s actually become the case that defending the weak is more important than identifying the truth. This whole idea is rampant, and it’s pretty much suffocating to any real discussion on moral issues. “Don’t judge! What makes your life any better! You’re just filled with hate!” etc. etc. etc. Everyone has to be equal, no matter the stakes, no matter what. If you imply Anything to the contrary, you’re basically Hitler who wants to kill all gay people. And while this push is definitely from the gay community (it’s how they gain their power), it’s most strong (and most despicable) from straight people. It’s despicable because they don’t know what they’re doing. They just bandwagon on someone else’s slave morality to the degradation of everything around them. And worst of all, they’re Zealous about it. They get mad, scary mad about it.

The second reason heterosexuals provide so much pressure against moral living is similar to the reason gay people do. A person who espouses Any sexual ethics (literally at all), is assaulting their own lifestyle. Because, let’s face it, heterosexuals are just as bad, or worse, about sexual purity than homosexuals. I basically know no people who don’t cohabitate. I basically know no people who haven’t sought relationships Just For The Sex. A friend of mine was asking which girl he should date. He explained their strengths and weaknesses to me. I told him to date the one he thinks he could marry. He laughed, looked at me like I was crazy, and then the conversation got awkward. That’s really the only sentence I said to him; I didn’t push anything, I wasn’t being preachy about it; I honestly thought that was the best, most rational advice. But it wasn’t even on his radar. And he’s a pretty decent person too. No, any talk about sexual ethics is an assault on almost All people. And that’s not cool. It’s way too hard to live your life moral with respect to sex. It’s also way too philosophical. With other things you can see external results more quickly and more clearly. Stealing has clear effects, as does lying. But having sex with your girlfriend? What’s wrong with that.–
What’s truly despicable is Catholics/Christians who continue to use their religious beliefs to justify their discrimination, their fear, and yes their hate for other human beings, based solely on their sexuality. We should not judge and impose our views on who other people choose to sleep with.
 
What’s truly despicable is Catholics/Christians who continue to use their religious beliefs to justify their discrimination, their fear, and yes their hate for other human beings, based solely on their sexuality. We should not judge and impose our views on who other people choose to sleep with.
Discrimination, fear, and hate have no place in this dialogue. That is made clear in the Catechism. However, one need not be discriminatory, fearful, or hateful to make the argument that homosexual acts are disordered. It is a principled moral stance that is rooted in objectivity, not in human emotion.
 
Discrimination, fear, and hate have no place in this dialogue. That is made clear in the Catechism. However, one need not be discriminatory, fearful, or hateful to make the argument that homosexual acts are disordered. It is a principled moral stance that is rooted in objectivity, not in human emotion.
I agree, but we must also agree that this moral stance is an OPINION that an increasing number of people do not agree with. Hence, we agree to disagree. Unlike other clear, grave sins like Murder/Torture, being Gay does not hurt anyone, and in fact all the Gay married people I know actually seem happier than my Straight married friends. 😃
 
Discrimination, fear, and hate have no place in this dialogue. That is made clear in the Catechism. However, one need not be discriminatory, fearful, or hateful to make the argument that homosexual acts are disordered. It is a principled moral stance that is rooted in objectivity, not in human emotion.
Sexual sins are not in themselves worse than any other mortals sins however it appears that only sexual sins are the ones we are warned not to criticize less we be guilty of hatred and discrimination. For example if I was to say it is wrong to steal you would not accuse me of hating thieves, been fearful of thieves or being judgmental of thieves.

We have had several people in this thread proclaim that the Curch teaching on homosexuality is wrong. You would have us ignore this?
 
I agree, but we must also agree that this moral stance is an OPINION that an increasing number of people do not agree with. Hence, we agree to disagree. Unlike other clear, grave sins like Murder/Torture, being Gay does not hurt anyone, and in fact all the Gay married people I know actually seem happier than my Straight married friends. 😃
Actually ones sin can negatively affect everyone they come in contact with as we have seen in this thread alone .
 
What’s truly despicable is Catholics/Christians who continue to use their religious beliefs to justify their discrimination, their fear, and yes their hate for other human beings, based solely on their sexuality. We should not judge and impose our views on who other people choose to sleep with.
Is there a reason you’re railing against these hypothetical hateful Catholics at this point in the discussion? Because the motivation of the people in this thread is love. And the issue we have been discussing is how marriage is treated in secular law, not the policing of bedrooms. I have yet to meet anyone who advocates forced chastity on CAF. People who defend traditional marriage just want to see the state recognize the special nature of the original unit of society.
 
What’s truly despicable is Catholics/Christians who continue to use their religious beliefs to justify their discrimination, their fear, and yes their hate for other human beings, based solely on their sexuality. .
May I ask a question? Why are you debating this on a Catholic forum where you can be assured that those who assent to the faith are going to oppose your view? Are you yourself not judging with your first comment? You cannot possibly know the true motivation of anyone who disagrees with your opinions so your general characterization may or may not apply.
We should not judge and impose our views on who other people choose to sleep with.
Did you actually read these words in a prior post:
But the Lord says, if you say to the wicked man: You shall surely die, and if he fails to heed the sword of judgment with which I have threatened him, that sword will overtake and kill him, and he will die in his sin; but you will have saved your soul. Therefore it is our task not to keep silent, and it is your task, even if we ourselves are silent, to hear the words of the shepherd from the Scriptures.
Can you attribute no good thing to the follower of Christ who sees his fellow man in danger? Not our business, you say? I’d answer that is it true charity and a spiritual act of kindness to warn another of impending (and eternal) death whether they believe it or not, or whether they accept it or reject it.
 
I agree, but we must also agree that this moral stance is an OPINION that an increasing number of people do not agree with. Hence, we agree to disagree. Unlike other clear, grave sins like Murder/Torture, being Gay does not hurt anyone, and in fact all the Gay married people I know actually seem happier than my Straight married friends. 😃
The Church’s moral stance on homosexuality is not opinion, but TRUTH. The fact that many flip the bird at the Church does not make the truth any less correct. Only a moral relativist sees morality as opinions that shift and flow with the tide. Moral truths are foundations and like all foundations those who throw themselves free of the walls of the Church risk dashing their brains on the granite the Church is erected upon.
 
What’s truly despicable is Catholics/Christians who continue to use their religious beliefs to justify their discrimination, their fear, and yes their hate for other human beings, based solely on their sexuality. We should not judge and impose our views on who other people choose to sleep with.
I worked with people who were homosexual and we got along. In the past, privacy meant something, and what anybody did in their bedroom was their own business. “Stay out of my bedroom” was a phrase I recall from the time period. Then something changed. Some homosexuals decided to give up their privacy. I was in a hospital waiting room recently when I watched a celebrity on TV tell everyone to stop being homophobic. Who was he talking to? I’ve never had an irrational fear of homosexuals. If I pass a hundred people in a mall, I can tell who is white, black or Oriental. I have no way to tell if anyone is gay.

Peace,
Ed
 
What’s truly despicable is Catholics/Christians who continue to use their religious beliefs to justify their discrimination, their fear, and yes their hate for other human beings, based solely on their sexuality. We should not judge and impose our views on who other people choose to sleep with.
I’m not sure who this was meant to be directed toward, but it doesn’t apply to me, Joe K., or anyone else here as far as I can see. Quite frankly, it’s a strawman and non-responsive.
 
When it comes to moral TEACHING, the Church is going to focus on the areas that Society is not handling itself. We all know that the Church is against racism, sexism, violence, etc. And sure, the Church could always do more (everyone can always do more). But society is already attempting to handle those topics. Society is doing God’s work there. Celebrities, politicians, and civil activists are always bring up those topics. But society has let the devil seek in regarding sexual sin. In this area, society is doing the devil’s work, so that’s where the Church is. The Church is always busy fighting the devil. If abortion were against the law and not a political topic, we would never discuss it. We would be focused on something else.

People have to realize that society has changed more rapidly in the last 50 years than it has in the previous 500 years. And the rate of change is speeding up each decade. For example: I’m 37 years old. When I was a Freshman in high school, short hand was still an optional elective. By my senior year, it was gone. Home-Ec was gone by the time my brother graduated. And I just learned that my 2nd youngest cousin, who just graduated high school this year cannot write or read cursive. They never taught it! I haven’t even touched the morality issues or the growth rate of non-denominationalism and atheism.

The Church focuses on fighting for the people no one fights for: the unborn, the **domestic **homeless (Hollywood is quick to raise funds to the poor overseas, but not often domestically), and the family. If the Church doesn’t focus on those, than no one will.

I hope this makes sense.
You are so right about the speed of both technological and societal mores changes in the last fifty years! And yes, we definitely need to make sure that all humans in our wonderful country are not hungry and have a place to stay that is warm and dry. :rolleyes:
 
If you begin by suggesting that sexual morality is open to discussion, the presence of “gay couples that have been in committed relationships for many years” means something.

If you begin by recognizing that the Church, following in Christ’s footsteps, has never recognized anything but sex within a marriage as licit and morally permissible, all it means is that some people continue to live like pagans.

This is of course is not a heart issue at all. Morality doesn’t hinge on how you feel about, or how it “hits” you.

Logically if you happen run into incestuous couples that have been in committed relationships for many years, you’re going to have to endorse incest.

And if they happen to form couples of two males and one female, or two females and one male, or any other combination and stay committed to the relationship for many years, you’re obliged to endorse that as well.

.
That is YOUR opinion. I think most here on CAF realize that when we are speaking of gay marriage, we mean two CONSENTING ADULTS. Bestiality, incest and group marriage is not the subject. Is there ever a point when we required to make decisions about sexual issues and not just cite the CCC?
 
Sexual sins are not in themselves worse than any other mortals sins however it appears that only sexual sins are the ones we are warned not to criticize less we be guilty of hatred and discrimination. For example if I was to say it is wrong to steal you would not accuse me of hating thieves, been fearful of thieves or being judgmental of thieves.

We have had several people in this thread proclaim that the Curch teaching on homosexuality is wrong. You would have us ignore this?
I think you misunderstood my post. I agree with everything you have said on this thread.
 
That is YOUR opinion. I think most here on CAF realize that when we are speaking of gay marriage, we mean two CONSENTING ADULTS. Bestiality, incest and group marriage is not the subject. Is there ever a point when we required to make decisions about sexual issues and not just cite the CCC?
There is not a single argument supporting homosexual marriage that does not equally apply to incestuous or polygamous marriages
 
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