Poll saying white Catholics embrace same-sex marriage than other Americans

[Angels84]

So you’re saying that the gay people who have contracted marriages, live together monogamously, and those who have married and adopted children are not a family?

They consider themselves a family and the government considers them a family and a very large portion of society considers them a family.

Firstly, thank you. This was the first rational thing I read on this thread.

Second, you can debate with many of the members here until you’re blue in the face. I’ve tried it. There’s no getting through to them. The idea that two people of the same gender could raise children together while maintaining a loving, monogamous relationship just boggles their mind.

I’ve said repeatedly on this forum that I myself am a product of “that arrangement that isn’t a real family”. I know in their hearts they mean well and are only doing what they believe is “right”, but many here fail to understand the offense they cause, whether they think it’s the “Truth” or not.

I would just let it be. Their views aren’t changing and it doesn’t really matter. Same sex marriage has been a reality for years in many places around the world and there has been no solid evidence that it has caused actual harm (note, abstract harm which derives from ones faith is not “actual”). If anything, the opposite has happened. Many children have loving homes. Many committed couples are now protected by law.

And, whether they like it or not, it’s going to be legal in the US within a couple of years. Ten years from now, many here will still be crying out about all the damage it will do or has done, despite evidence pointing to the contrary. But, because this is the US, they can continue being against it. That’s their right.

 

[Angels84]

There is not a single argument supporting homosexual marriage that does not equally apply to incestuous or polygamous marriages

When we have millions of tax paying Americans demanding incest and multi-party marriages, then itll be time to argue the validity of that. Right now? Nope. I have yet to see millions of brothers and sisters demanding marriage licenses or many people demanding they marry more than one person, so right now its a baseless argument.

 

[estesbob]

When we have millions of tax paying Americans demanding incest and multi-party marriages, then itll be time to argue the validity of that. Right now? Nope. I have yet to see millions of brothers and sisters demanding marriage licenses or many people demanding they marry more than one person, so right now its a baseless argument.

So homosexuals got their rights of the heck with everybody else?

 

[Scottgun]

Firstly, thank you. This was the first rational thing I read on this thread.

Let us see…

Second, you can debate with many of the members here until you’re blue in the face. I’ve tried it. There’s no getting through to them. The idea that two people of the same gender could raise children together while maintaining a loving, monogamous relationship just boggles their mind.

Attacking people instead of their ideas is always a sign of someone is on shaky ground.

I’ve said repeatedly on this forum that I myself am a product of “that arrangement that isn’t a real family”. I know in their hearts they mean well and are only doing what they believe is “right”, but many here fail to understand the offense they cause, whether they think it’s the “Truth” or not.

This is a consequentialist argument. Just because one can show good effects, does not mean that the chosen acts that got to those are good. This is the great intellectual defect of our time.

I would just let it be. Their views aren’t changing and it doesn’t really matter.

That’s just it. People defending the indefensible will not let it be. This is why we’ve already seen people supporting true marriage being harassed, fired from jobs, and in one case having to flee the country.

Same sex marriage has been a reality for years in many places around the world and there has been no solid evidence that it has caused actual harm (note, abstract harm which derives from ones faith is not “actual”). If anything, the opposite has happened. Many children have loving homes. Many committed couples are now protected by law.

Coercing everyone to endorse a lie might not seem like “actual” harm to you, but it is. Like I said, we already seeing the persecution of people who disagree with the latest fad insanity. And it isn’t going to get better because evil always needs to silence or destroy dissenters.

And, whether they like it or not, it’s going to be legal in the US within a couple of years. Ten years from now, many here will still be crying out about all the damage it will do or has done, despite evidence pointing to the contrary. But, because this is the US, they can continue being against it. That’s their right.

Well, it’s our right…for now. Usually, someone tries to claim that this is all right-wing paranoia, but I’ve been told point-blank by defenders of perversion that just in case persecution does come, you guys deserved it. That’s a stunning admission.

Homosexual acts are evil. Homosexual “marriages” are not marriages. This is the Truth.

 

[edwest2]

A few words from Francis Cardinal George:

"The inevitable result is a crisis of belief for many Catholics. Throughout history, when Catholics and other believers in revealed religion have been forced to choose between being taught by God or instructed by politicians, professors, editors of major newspapers and entertainers, many have opted to go along with the powers that be. This reduces a great tension in their lives, although it also brings with it the worship of a false god. It takes no moral courage to conform to government and social pressure. It takes a deep faith to “swim against the tide,” as Pope Francis recently encouraged young people to do at last summer’s World Youth Day.

"Swimming against the tide means limiting one’s access to positions of prestige and power in society. It means that those who choose to live by the Catholic faith will not be welcomed as political candidates to national office, will not sit on editorial boards of major newspapers, will not be at home on most university faculties, will not have successful careers as actors and entertainers. Nor will their children, who will also be suspect. Since all public institutions, no matter who owns or operates them, will be agents of the government and conform their activities to the demands of the official religion, the practice of medicine and law will become more difficult for faithful Catholics. It already means in some States that those who run businesses must conform their activities to the official religion or be fined, as Christians and Jews are fined for their religion in countries governed by Sharia law.

“A reader of the tale of two churches, an outside observer, might note that American civil law has done much to weaken and destroy what is the basic unit of every human society, the family. With the weakening of the internal restraints that healthy family life teaches, the State will need to impose more and more external restraints on everyone’s activities. An outside observer might also note that the official religion’s imposing whatever its proponents currently desire on all citizens and even on the world at large inevitably generates resentment. An outside observer might point out that class plays a large role in determining the tenets of the official State religion. “Same-sex marriage,” as a case in point, is not an issue for the poor or those on the margins of society.”

Source: catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2014/0907/cardinal.aspx

Peace,
Ed

 

[Angels84]

Let us see…

Attacking people instead of their ideas is always a sign of someone is on shaky ground.

This is a consequentialist argument. Just because one can show good effects, does not mean that the chosen acts that got to those are good. This is the great intellectual defect of our time.

That’s just it. People defending the indefensible will not let it be. This is why we’ve already seen people supporting true marriage being harassed, fired from jobs, and in one case having to flee the country.

Like I said, we already seeing the persecution of people who disagree with the latest fad insanity. And it isn’t going to get better because evil always needs to silence or destroy dissenters.

Well, it’s our right…for now. Usually, someone tries to claim that this is all right-wing paranoia, but I’ve been told point-blank by defenders of perversion that just in case persecution does come, you guys deserved it. That’s a stunning admission.

Homosexual acts are evil. Homosexual “marriages” are not marriages. This is the Truth.

I’m well aware of what your “truth” is. I’m not debating what you say the church teaches. I know. I just don’t care. The church doesn’t dictate the lives of others. Sorry.

 

[Scottgun]

I’m well aware of what your “truth” is. I’m not debating what you say the church teaches. I know. I just don’t care. The church doesn’t dictate the lives of others. Sorry.

If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t be at this forum offering up these craptastic arguments.

 

[estesbob]

I’m well aware of what your “truth” is. I’m not debating what you say the church teaches. I know. I just don’t care. The church doesn’t dictate the lives of others. Sorry.

Then why are you posting in a Catholic forum?

 

[Angels84]

If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t be at this forum offering up these craptastic arguments.

I originally came here out of curiosity for the catholic faith. Perhaps even seeking a church. But I soon found myself being attacked for having two fathers, having my family insulted, and told I had been deprived of something.

Now I come because I enjoy seeing that stray comment from someone with some sense. Someone who doesn’t believe the church dictates everyone else. Someone who can comprehend the difference between a catholic marriage and a civil one. Also, to be honest, I am entertained to see so many members living in some fantasy world, unable to understand why no one else in the country agrees with them. I enjoy seeing the reactions to bans being ruled unconstitutional every week. This is smug, I admit, but I enjoy it because of how so many here treated me.

I am entertained when members here claim ownership to marriage. I enjoy seeing the stray person come along and obliterate some silly argument against gay people, then watch as the other person counters with something totally based on faith and not logic.

You people think eating crackers and drinking wine is the same as eating Jesus and drinking his blood. You continuously worship other saints as Gods (then deny it, despite the evidence being in every other members signature). You smugly proclaim you are the one true church and religion, and mock others (yes, I’ve seen it). You are living out a fantasy on CAF - and you’re able to do that because there are others just like you here, others who remain in the minority of Catholicism.

It’s no wonder everyone leaves the church. Spend an hour on this forum and its as clear as day: you feel superior, despite all evidence outside the church contradicting you. You wonder why the Catholic Church is laughed at…read this forum! It’s hilarious.

Ban me. Don’t care. That won’t prevent me from continuing to read this forum, OR joining again if I feel the need to step forward and call someone out or tell someone else they’re not alone. My IP changes daily. I can’t be banned.

Immature? Maybe. But that’s the only response I can give to a forum that immediately questions the faith. I see it happen all the time here. “Agree with us or be banished!”…and that by itself shows not even the members here are totally comfortable in their faith. They squash opposition as to not burst their fantasy bubble.

Be seeing you all. Banned or not.

 

[Havard]

I originally came here out of curiosity for the catholic faith. Perhaps even seeking a church. But I soon found myself being attacked for having two fathers, having my family insulted, and told I had been deprived of something.

Now I come because I enjoy seeing that stray comment from someone with some sense. Someone who doesn’t believe the church dictates everyone else. Someone who can comprehend the difference between a catholic marriage and a civil one. Also, to be honest, I am entertained to see so many members living in some fantasy world, unable to understand why no one else in the country agrees with them. I enjoy seeing the reactions to bans being ruled unconstitutional every week. This is smug, I admit, but I enjoy it because of how so many here treated me.

I am entertained when members here claim ownership to marriage. I enjoy seeing the stray person come along and obliterate some silly argument against gay people, then watch as the other person counters with something totally based on faith and not logic.

You people think eating crackers and drinking wine is the same as eating Jesus and drinking his blood. You continuously worship other saints as Gods (then deny it, despite the evidence being in every other members signature). You smugly proclaim you are the one true church and religion, and mock others (yes, I’ve seen it). You are living out a fantasy on CAF - and you’re able to do that because there are others just like you here, others who remain in the minority of Catholicism.

It’s no wonder everyone leaves the church. Spend an hour on this forum and its as clear as day: you feel superior, despite all evidence outside the church contradicting you. You wonder why the Catholic Church is laughed at…read this forum! It’s hilarious.

Ban me. Don’t care. That won’t prevent me from continuing to read this forum, OR joining again if I feel the need to step forward and call someone out or tell someone else they’re not alone. My IP changes daily. I can’t be banned.

Immature? Maybe. But that’s the online response I can give to a forum that immediately questions the faith. I see it happen all the time here. “Agree with us or be banished!”…and that by itself shows not even the members here are totally comfortable in their faith. They squash opposition as to not burst their fantasy bubble.

Be seeing you all. Banned or not.

Your argument might be valid if this forum didn’t have many longstanding liberals, atheists, etc.

Despite what you say, people of different views do come here and have real, constructive dialogue.

 

[Angels84]

Your argument might be valid if this forum didn’t have many longstanding liberals, atheists, etc.

Despite what you say, people of different views do come here and have real, constructive dialogue.

I’m aware. And they’re few and far between. You keep some around for entertainment, but the moment someone hits the wrong chord, they’re gone. I’ve been watching it for months and months.

 

[christus_vincit]

I’m aware. And they’re few and far between. You keep some around for entertainment, but the moment someone hits the wrong chord, they’re gone. I’ve been watching it for months and months.

You will not find more charitable, honest discussions on any other internet forum. People come and go, but they never leave here because they have been bullied away.

 

[Havard]

I’m aware. And they’re few and far between. You keep some around for entertainment, but the moment someone hits the wrong chord, they’re gone. I’ve been watching it for months and months.

I’ve seen hundreds of toe-the-line orthodox Catholics get banned for being snarky, rude, or flying off the handle, over the last 5+ years. I’ve also known tons of posters who constantly dissent on everything, and they are still here.

Stay charitable and you are welcome here.

 

[estesbob]

You will not find more charitable, honest discussions on any other internet forum. People come and go, but they never leave here because they have been bullied away.

Reminds me of Harry Truman’s comment when someone yelled “Give em hell, Harry” He responded “I just tell the truth and they think its hell”

 

[estesbob]

I’ve seen hundreds of toe-the-line orthodox Catholics get banned for being snarky, rude, or flying off the handle, over the last 5+ years. I’ve also known tons of posters who constantly dissent on everything, and they are still here.

Stay charitable and you are welcome here.

But mock the Eucharist and you are not.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

This is of course is not a heart issue at all. Morality doesn’t hinge on how you feel about, or how it “hits” you.

Logically if you happen run into incestuous couples that have been in committed relationships for many years, you’re going to have to endorse incest.

And if they happen to form couples of two males and one female, or two females and one male, or any other combination who stay committed to the relationship for many years, you’re obliged to endorse that as well.

That is YOUR opinion.

My OPINION is that steaks should be prepared medium rare.

The FACT, however, is that your logic demands that you can’t oppose marriage of couples of two males and one female, or two females and one male, or any other combination who stay committed to the relationship for many years.’

Or are you suggesting that morality is whatever happens to please you, spin your propeller, or not gag you? If that’s the case, all you’re saying is what you like and what you don’t.

I think most here on CAF realize that when we are speaking of gay marriage, we mean two CONSENTING ADULTS.

Why, particularly? How are two CONSENTING ADULTS different than couples of two males and one female, or two females and one male, or any other combination, other than you happen to apparently endorse them?

Bestiality, incest and group marriage is not the subject. Is there ever a point when we required to make decisions about sexual issues and not just cite the CCC?

How did you work bestiality into this? Are dumb animals capable of consent? This was a discussion about people.

Are you asking if there is ever a point where the Church’s irreformable teaching on sexual relations and the proper use of genitalia is irrelevant?

I would propose that in a Catholic discussion the answer would be “no”.

.

 

[Havard]

You will not find more charitable, honest discussions on any other internet forum. People come and go, but they never leave here because they have been bullied away.

Mostly. There are Catholics who poorly represent the faith. People can come here and engage with them, and think they represent the faith and/or this forum.

That’s sad, but there’s nothing that can be done except report people when you see if they are rude, trolling, etc.

 

[Scottgun]

I originally came here out of curiosity for the catholic faith. Perhaps even seeking a church. But I soon found myself being attacked for having two fathers, having my family insulted, and told I had been deprived of something.

I don’t approve of personal attacks and try to avoid them wherever possible. However, ideas are fair game. That homosexual acts and legal arrangements between them weaving an illusion of a marriage are evil may not be something someone doesn’t want to hear and may feel insulted hearing it is just too bad because we can’t obscure the Truth.

Now I come because I enjoy seeing that stray comment from someone with some sense. Someone who doesn’t believe the church dictates everyone else.

As I often say, if I refuse to go to Mass on Sunday, twelve Swiss Guards are not going to kick in my door, carry me off to the nearest parish, and chain me to a pew. The Church proclaims the Truth. No one is forced to live according to it.

Someone who can comprehend the difference between a catholic marriage and a civil one. Also, to be honest, I am entertained to see so many members living in some fantasy world, unable to understand why no one else in the country agrees with them.

Frankly, you are falsely characterizing here. I think most people here understand exactly why most of the country doesn’t agree with them: it’s because most of the country has succumbed to the bad, incoherent, demonstrably self-refuting philosophies of moral relativism and consequentialism. These erroneous worldviews are the death of intellect.

I enjoy seeing the reactions to bans being ruled unconstitutional every week. This is smug, I admit, but I enjoy it because of how so many here treated me.

Well, given your penchant for mischaracterizing your opponents, I would need to see some concrete examples of mistreatment to accept that.

I am entertained when members here claim ownership to marriage.

Marriage is a real thing and it is no more claiming ownership than insisting that a dog is a dog and not a cat is ownership of the concept of dogs.

I enjoy seeing the stray person come along and obliterate some silly argument against gay people, then watch as the other person counters with something totally based on faith and not logic.

I imagine there are some silly arguments against gay people, but there are some good ones as well. Faith and logic are not opposed. That homosexual sex is wrong can be demonstrated by reason, history, science, and simple apprehension.

You people think eating crackers and drinking wine is the same as eating Jesus and drinking his blood. You continuously worship other saints as Gods (then deny it, despite the evidence being in every other members signature).

Wow. NOW who is the bigot? You sound like the Westboro Baptist Church right there.

You smugly proclaim you are the one true church and religion, and mock others (yes, I’ve seen it).

Every jot and tittle of the claims of Catholicism can be defended. Like I said, I don’t approve of mocking, but even if it did happen, what of it? No one here is claiming they are perfect.

You are living out a fantasy on CAF - and you’re able to do that because there are others just like you here, others who remain in the minority of Catholicism.

Whether we are a minority or not is irrelevant. The Truth is the Truth in and out of season.

It’s no wonder everyone leaves the church.

As I’ve said before, the ironic thing is that as a parish or even other denominations embrace Politically Correct nonsense, the more they languish. This is demonstrable in places like Diocese of Rochester until recently. The more they cleave to authentic Christianity, they prosper. Also, Christianity is growing outside of the West. Sexual perversion is evidence of a civilization in decline, so this whole “the Church is dying” stuff is really just a matter of a receding tide lowering all boats.

Spend an hour on this forum and its as clear as day: you feel superior, despite all evidence outside the church contradicting you. You wonder why the Catholic Church is laughed at…read this forum! It’s hilarious.

Whistling past the graveyard.

Ban me. Don’t care.

Why would we ban you?

That won’t prevent me from continuing to read this forum, OR joining again if I feel the need to step forward and call someone out or tell someone else they’re not alone. My IP changes daily. I can’t be banned.

Do you realized that you are essentially admitting to willing to be dishonest?

Immature? Maybe. But that’s the online response I can give to a forum that immediately questions the faith. I see it happen all the time here. “Agree with us or be banished!”…and that by itself shows not even the members here are totally comfortable in their faith. They squash opposition as to not burst their fantasy bubble.

Be seeing you all. Banned or not.

I’m not sure where you are getting all this banished stuff from. I’ve seen people with vehement disagreement with the Church last a long time here. That’s because they know how to disagree without being a jerk about. The only fantasy I see here is yours.

 

[Havard]

But mock the Eucharist and you are not.

Well, it’s one and the same. You can’t both mock the Eucharist and be charitable.

 

[Angels84]

All of my claims come from personal experience on this forum along with what I have witnessed.

And yes, call me a bigot. That’s another thing I find fascinating lately. After decades of bigotry coming from religious institutions (not just the catholic church), the social tide has turned. More and more people are able to understand why denying a monogomous gay couple the same rights as every other couple is so blatantly wrong and without any solid secular evidence (yes, secular. Religious arguments hold no credibility). So, in response, fundamentalists are attempting to now call THEIR opposition bigotry. It’s so hypocritical that it’s laughable.