Poll: U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope

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I was under the impression that there is only one baptism. Are you saying that Protestant baptism properly performed is invalid? I don’t believe the Church re-baptizes a Protestant who joins the Catholic Church; is he therefore an inferior Catholic? You’ve got me on that one. I’ve never heard the concept taught that you can be forced to be a Catholic by virtue of infant Baptism. Please explain yourself. 🙂
You’ve got me confused now. All I said is once Catholic always Catholic. I said nothing about protestant baptism. However if it comes after the Catholic infant baptism then yes the second is invalid. Help?
 
You’ve got me confused now. All I said is once Catholic always Catholic. I said nothing about protestant baptism. However if it comes after the Catholic infant baptism then yes the second is invalid. Help?
What I am trying to say is that infant baptism does not make one Catholic. If the person baptized does not agree to be Catholic after reaching the age of reason and consent, then I don’t see him as Catholic.

It may be different for a person who does accept all the teachings of the Church, then at some point says he does not, which might be the case here. But I’m still having a problem with “once a Catholic always a Catholic.” It is after all a profession. If one does not profess the Catholic Faith, I don’t see the purpose of holding that they are still a Catholic. One cannot profess what one does not believe. Even the Church teaches this.
 
So do you see a moral difference between allowing abortions in certain cases and trying to keep abortions rare? As I pointed out, the message seems to be on placing restrictions on abortions, even though technically they are still legal. But that’s IMO.
I am against all abortion for any reason whatsoever. Abortion is the murder of an innocent, unborn baby.
 
What I am trying to say is that infant baptism does not make one Catholic. If the person baptized does not agree to be Catholic after reaching the age of reason and consent, then I don’t see him as Catholic.

It may be different for a person who does accept all the teachings of the Church, then at some point says he does not, which might be the case here. But I’m still having a problem with “once a Catholic always a Catholic.” It is after all a profession. If one does not profess the Catholic Faith, I don’t see the purpose of holding that they are still a Catholic. One cannot profess what one does not believe. Even the Church teaches this.
You are mistaken in your view of infant baptism. Ones baptized it is done. The person may choose to go to another denomination or none. But they are still Catholic.
 
What I am trying to say is that infant baptism does not make one Catholic. If the person baptized does not agree to be Catholic after reaching the age of reason and consent, then I don’t see him as Catholic.

It may be different for a person who does accept all the teachings of the Church, then at some point says he does not, which might be the case here. But I’m still having a problem with “once a Catholic always a Catholic.” It is after all a profession. If one does not profess the Catholic Faith, I don’t see the purpose of holding that they are still a Catholic. One cannot profess what one does not believe. Even the Church teaches this.
As I understand it, the baptism is for the sin, and the sin only. The confirmation is for the membership / being Catholic. I look forward to more information on this from those that are more informed than I. 🙂 👍

Don, Vegas
 
I am against all abortion for any reason whatsoever. Abortion is the murder of an innocent, unborn baby.
That I know and it goes without saying. It’s just when those who say that they’d prefer allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest to whatever the other guy proposes, it raises a red flag in my sights.

But don’t blame me. The pro-life forces chewed me out when I defended Henry Hyde.
 
You are mistaken in your view of infant baptism. Ones baptized it is done. The person may choose to go to another denomination or none. But they are still Catholic.
Please give me a cite.
 
That I know and it goes without saying. It’s just when those who say that they’d prefer allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest to whatever the other guy proposes, it raises a red flag in my sights.
The USCCB’s advice is: When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.

In the case where one candidate is entirely pro-choice and the other candidate is anti-abortion except in the case of rape or abortion, one must decide whether to vote for the lesser of two evils, or to not vote at all. If not voting at all, or voting for a candidate who is not in the running, increases the chances of the greater evil being supported, the voter is in somewhat on a dilemma. As a practical matter, not voting for the lesser of evils helps ensure the greater of evils.
 
In the case where one candidate is entirely pro-choice and the other candidate is anti-abortion except in the case of rape or abortion, one must decide whether to vote for the lesser of two evils, or to not vote at all. If not voting at all, or voting for a candidate who is not in the running, increases the chances of the greater evil being supported, the voter is in somewhat on a dilemma. As a practical matter, not voting for the lesser of evils helps ensure the greater of evils.
FWIW, Cicero, whose moral code the Church follows, wrote “Primum minima de malis” (“First, the least of evils” or in our vernacular, “Choose the least of all evils.”)

If everyone were to follow this principle through the primaries, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
 
CCC 1272. I’ll get a cite from canon law if I can stay awake.😃
This [CCC 1272 below] does not say baptism makes a person Catholic. Baptism properly administered whether by a Catholic priest or a Baptist minister configures a person to Christ, and seals the Christian with an indelible spiritual mark. You might argue that “all” baptisms, whether by a priest or other person, makes a person a Catholic, since there is only one baptism. But that is a stretch-- we don’t tell Protestants that they are really Catholics, they just don’t know it. Anyway, that does not seem to be the sense in which you were using it.

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
 
FWIW, Cicero, whose moral code the Church follows, wrote “Primum minima de malis” (“First, the least of evils” or in our vernacular, “Choose the least of all evils.”)

If everyone were to follow this principle through the primaries, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
The real sin in voting for the person who believes in abortion in the case of rape or incest is if you do it with the intention in your heart of supporting that position.
 
As I understand it, the baptism is for the sin, and the sin only. The confirmation is for the membership / being Catholic. I look forward to more information on this from those that are more informed than I. 🙂 👍

Don, Vegas
Wrong. Once you are baptized Catholic–you are Catholic–period. Confirmation might be a sacrament that comes later but it is not required for you to be considered Catholic. This is CMatt25’s whole point. He knows that the Church still considers him Catholic because he was baptized as such.

Once baptized Catholic…you are bound by her laws regarding marriage.

Case in point…I was baptized as an infant (7 days old) and had First Holy Communion…then my parents divorced, left the church, I was in foster care…etc…with no confirmation. As a teenager, right before I got married at 19…I left. But I was still Catholic. Baptism in the Protestant arena (for most protestants) means something different…more like a profession of faith.

BTW…When I was confirmed two years ago…after my return to the Church.
 
This [CCC 1272 below] does not say baptism makes a person Catholic. Baptism properly administered whether by a Catholic priest or a Baptist minister configures a person to Christ, and seals the Christian with an indelible spiritual mark. You might argue that “all” baptisms, whether by a priest or other person, makes a person a Catholic, since there is only one baptism. But that is a stretch-- we don’t tell Protestants that they are really Catholics, they just don’t know it. Anyway, that does not seem to be the sense in which you were using it.

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
Being baptized in the Catholic church makes you Catholic. Protestants are not because they are not baptized in the Catholic Church.
 
What I am trying to say is that infant baptism does not make one Catholic. If the person baptized does not agree to be Catholic after reaching the age of reason and consent, then I don’t see him as Catholic.
Lapey is right on this one. Now, the infant may not be raised as a knowledgeable, informed Catholic (and in many cases never even receives additional sacraments!), but that’s a different matter. Or he/she may be “raised” Catholic, but nominally, poorly, incorrectly, superficially according to the guidelines of the Church. Or the instruction may have stopped at one point. All that may mitigate ignorance of the faith (and thus culpability for working against the faith or merely abandoning the faith, espeically if Confirmation is never reached), but it does not cancel membership. It may just make them lost souls, of course, on a practical level, without the tools they need to enliven that faith and be supported by it.
One cannot profess what one does not believe.
Or, profession has little meaning if that profession lacks knowledge as to the content, which we have seen more and more in the Church. That just makes one a poor witness and an ineffectual member, though. It doesn’t cancel the original grace which still can always be activated by someone who seeks it wholeheartedly.

Studies have been done on people who grow up without a vibrant faith (such as those not sufficiently introduced to the faith until adulthood). It can be done, but it’s an uphill battle. (Especially if one goes from detached atheism into Christianity or Judaism.) The most famous modern case of this is Dr. Laura Schlesinger, who tried it diligently and failed, and acknowledged that on national TV, breaking down while doing so. The young brain/spirit has a degree of openness and receptivity that is unique to that developmental time period. Yes, with grace (again) that hurdle for an adult can be overcome, but often is not.

This is the main psychological/practical reason that it makes no sense to “raise a child as nothing and let him choose (a religion) for himself later.” :rolleyes: More often than not, that results in a lifetime of experimentation without commitment or conviction. (Or it results in detached atheism, with the experience of faith being absent.)
 
Wrong. Once you are baptized Catholic–you are Catholic–period. Confirmation might be a sacrament that comes later but it is not required for you to be considered Catholic. This is CMatt25’s whole point. He knows that the Church still considers him Catholic because he was baptized as such.

Once baptized Catholic…you are bound by her laws regarding marriage.

Case in point…I was baptized as an infant (7 days old) and had First Holy Communion…then my parents divorced, left the church, I was in foster care…etc…with no confirmation. As a teenager, right before I got married at 19…I left. But I was still Catholic. Baptism in the Protestant arena (for most protestants) means something different…more like a profession of faith.

BTW…When I was confirmed two years ago…after my return to the Church.
If you were baptized Methodist, then raised Catholic, are you saying you would not be bound by the Catholic laws regarding marriage? Catholicism is a profession of faith, not a rite of induction. The Methodist baptism and the Catholic baptism seals the Christian with the same indelible mark that he belongs to Christ.
 
If you were baptized Methodist, then raised Catholic, are you saying you would not be bound by the Catholic laws regarding marriage? Catholicism is a profession of faith, not a rite of induction. The Methodist baptism and the Catholic baptism seals the Christian with the same indelible mark that he belongs to Christ.
If you are baptized Methodist…but raised Catholic…in what way? If what you mean is that you go to Mass every Sunday but have no formal training…then no you are not Catholic and are not to be admitted to the sacraments.

If you are baptized Methodist and go through RCIA and then receive confirmation and then Holy Communion then yes you are Catholic.

Correct about baptism…you belong to Christ…but being baptized Methodist does not make you Catholic.
 
This [CCC 1272 below] does not say baptism makes a person Catholic. Baptism properly administered whether by a Catholic priest or a Baptist minister configures a person to Christ, and seals the Christian with an indelible spiritual mark. You might argue that “all” baptisms, whether by a priest or other person, makes a person a Catholic, since there is only one baptism. But that is a stretch-- we don’t tell Protestants that they are really Catholics, they just don’t know it. Anyway, that does not seem to be the sense in which you were using it.

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
I know this may seem simplistic but, its the catechism of the CATHOLIC Church. The baptism brings a person into this Christian family in which there is only one, catholic (little c). When an infant is baptised in the faith he or she is Catholic. At confirmation a person is sealed in the faith. It is not a time to choose to be Catholic and therefore become Catholic. They are already Catholic.

Confirmation’s proper place is much younger than what we western Catholics are used of. Check out Fargo North Dakota’s age for confirmation, 3rd grade. Pope B16 congratulated that bishop for restoring the sacrament of initiation where it should be.

There are three sacraments of initiation, baptism the gateway, confirmation, and the Eucharist, in that order. Even though we give first communion before confirmation in the normal process. For catecumens they recieve the Eucharist last. This sacrement is what will feed us and nurture what we have receaved in baptism and confirmation.
 
:rotfl:

Yeah right…580 “randomly selected” Catholics. Probably all Obama voters :eek: who’d like nothing better than to have the Church validate their lifestyle choices, abortions, contracepting, and gay marriage.

Yeppers…I believe it…NOT

Lisa
😃
 
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