Poll: U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope

[LilyM]

We both read the same things and draw different meanings and conclusions.

I can only reconcile your arguments by supposing that the Church, when it uses the term “member”, does not mean it in the ordinary sense of the word, that is, of a person who voluntarily joins an organization. If the Church counts you as a member simply by virtue of the fact that a priest baptized you, then it is not of your doing and so there should be no feeling of betrayal by anyone who renounces such a membership.

It’s like if I tell you that because you have replied to my post, you are now a member of the Sherlock Society of Posters, a Sherlockian. You didn’t join; I made you a member. If you decide to walk away from the Society, I might then call you a fallen away Sherlockian. There is no negative connotation to that, as there should be no negative connotation to a fallen away Catholic who never once believed in the tenets of the Catholic Faith. It’s too bad that people (not you) shame a person who conscientiously, although mistakenly, renounces his Catholic faith. It’s only shameful if the person believes in the faith, but to protect his sin, he renounces it, like Henry VIII.

A quick question. If a Catholic priest comes upon an accident and baptizes the Jewish man lying unconscious in the street, does the Jew become a Catholic?

My model for this discussion we are in is the first Christians. They heard, they believed, they asked to be baptized, and they were baptized. That is where I got the fundamental idea that Church membership is meant to be a voluntary thing, requiring both a profession of faith and a baptism, not necessarily in that order. I hope the meaning of the word “member” is the way out of this discussion.

One is a member of the Church in the same way one is a member of a family - not by virtue of any act of yours but merely by virtue of being born to your mother and father. It is a relationship that cannot be severed no latter what you try - changing your name and appearance, moving out of home, denying all relationship etc. And that relationship carries with it obligations and responsibilities.

You will never be allowed to marry a biological sibling, for example, no matter how much you might want to believe that that the biological - DNA - link doesn’t matter, however much you might feel like you don’t have a sibling relationship with this person. Even if you attempt it - heck, even if you don’t know you are related when you try - it will not legally be a valid marriage.

In a similar way, you spiritually become a member of The Church through your baptism. Which changes the ‘DNA’ of your soul, if you like, to create a relationship GATT can never be severed.

 

[Steve_Jay]

Beautiful post sir! You did a man’s work! God bless you!

Hello October baby.
Good month October! Thank you and God bless you too.

 

[Steve_Jay]

I have a problem or you do? Imho it is you. You have an inability to directly answer a question. You have answered None. You just move on when your obviously wrong and move to your next rant.
Obedience has always been the issue following Christ, how are you doing with it?
How about you answer all those question you asked above, your good at asking, lets turn this around now. Your turn,
Which rite to you follow in the Catholic Church. Remember YOU bought up the meaning of Catholic that’s how we arrived at that question.
Why aren’t you in the Latin Rite Church?
Sacrament of reconciliation in the Latin Rite, what’s your thinking?
Is the Roman Catholic Church for or against Christ?
The Latin Rite Church is His Bride?
Who is holding the Popes hand?
You thoughts on the Sacrament of Reconciliation and how it applies to you? Remember that conversation?
What hours should the Church open its doors?
Is the leader of your congregation a heretic? How do you know?
How does a Pope become an Anti- Pope?
Are you suggesting there is an Anti-Pope is Rome? How about your proof instead of speculation and mild insinuation through fleeting suggestion. I find it uncharitable and lacking. Why are you here?
Do you believe you can save your soul in the Latin Rite Catholic Church?
If the Latin Rite will save your soul in the name of Christ it must be a great thing, no?

Good morning Gary. How are you today. I hope all is well with you.
Where in my posts have I suggested that there is an antipope in Rome? I haven’t have I?
I have also stated that we should support the pope. I have also provided links that shows the pope goes all the way back to St. Peter who in turn goes to Christ. I mentioned holding hands together. I asked who is holding the pope’s hand? He has two hands. So if Jesus is holding one then doesn’t it make sense for us to hold the other?
The Latin Rite. I’ll give it to you in English. How many Jesus’ Christ’s is there? How many Jesus’ Christ’s suffered and died on a cross? Only one and he spoke Aramaic. So what’s your point about your Latin inquisition?
What language does God speak? He speaks a Universal language that all can understand regardless of what tongue they have. The language of love.

Regarding the sin issue you ask about me. You pray for me and I’ll pray for you. We can hold hands that way.

May God bless you. Have a very nice day.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Roman Catholic church that is always locked. The Roman Catholic school I went to doesn’t exist. Attendances at mass on Sunday are down considerably.,

Faith, the gates of hell will not prevail.

As more and more muslims have been coming here

Let nothing disturb your path to Christ.

You know I left the church at one time. I left the church due to the paedophile scandal that hit the national news headlines.

Nothing new, how many sheep without, how many wolves within. I addressed this already you may want to re-read. This issue exists “everywhere” You live in a world of sinners. Did you expect a different reality? That’s the paradox already discussed by me, re-read.

I told God I wanted nothing more to do with him! ,

Jesus died for you and everyone else. Your disconnect doesn’t change this. Your path to Salvation is the point you should be concerned and focused on.

Slowly but surely I went on a slippery slope until one day I looked at what I was becoming.

Seems apparent your war isn’t over yet. Its His will not yours.

The next thing I knew God began showing me his enemies.

What enemies and what truth? Your talking illusive again.

On one occasion, I called on God and the angels to witness,

Private revelation used to detract from public is foolishness. Read the CCC on public and private revelation.

There was a Christian forum,

And this has what to do with our conversation? Oh right…nothing. Evil is real, if you are having visions then you shouldn’t need to be told. Nor how to resolve your inclination to sin…Confession.

Any church would do for me as long as it wasn’t Catholic. I still didn’t feel I could trust priests!,

Your feelings are interfering with your salvation.

None? Bit exaggerated no? Obviously you are not through coming to terms with your own issue. As you yourself preach, it is Christ you are following…Christ crucified. And the lampposts he established in the World…where sin is forgiven “Eucharist”…Remember?? The Apostolic Church’s, why didn’t you attend another?

I joined a Christian forum. Within no time I was a member of it’s Admin totally heretical. became banned…

Great reason to be in the Latin Rite. By your own words.

I found myself being increasingly steered back to the church. I was in the City one day and saw a Catholic Church. I thought why not make it now. It struck later that it is named after my patron Saint. The saint whose name I took when I was confirmed…

Very good, Amen.

I am seeing a priest on Tuesday to discuss with him the situation of the Roman Catholic Church here…

The situation of the Catholic Church? How about your Salvation, that’s the priority. You learn to follow before you can command. Least we start thinking to much of ourselves and our own will, as opposed to Gods.

This forum Catholic Answers is a great forum. The intention is for a forum for Catholics who live here. It is not in competition with this one.,

Not my point of discussion. I attend no-where but here. No desire, nothing out there but distraction.

that when the pope is attacked the entire Church suffers. That is not speculation. It is the truth. …

The Pope is always under attack. He is the Vicar of Jesus Christ, its a spiritual battle which is on-going. I go with Jesus Christ and His Church. The heat doesn’t disturb me. Christ wins in the end, I read the book. Greatest Words Ever Spoken.

A person need not be a Catholic to be a Christian…

Did someone suggest otherwise. or are your trying to convince yourself?

How does it appear to those outside who see Christians arguing about this doctrine, that doctrine and the other doctrine? How does it appear to outsiders when Christians use the Bible to try and make it look as though the pope is the false prophet? Catholic church, pentecostal, Jehovah’s witnesses, it’s all the same to outsiders…

Isn’t this what you have done here on this thread?

Who should they believe? It is true to say that a person might not believe through our own fault.

Christ divinely established a Church, and it remains in Rome where established, that what to believe as it is the Truth. This we know, we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not. Do you? Apparently not.

The pope is Christ’s spokesman on earth. We can only be one if we stand with the pope and give him our support…

The gates of hell will never prevail. We had this conversation already. And if only one Catholic remains “He is the Catholic Church” may the Lord be Forever Blessed!

Are you scared?

What a ramble this post has been.

Addressed above. You have a million reasons to avoid the Church and say no to Christ all which involve what you think about the Church. You should be thinking about YOUR Salvation, not a misguided priest, Islam, and all other distractions. You’ve convinced yourself through your own will to leave the Latin Rite. I would re-think your choice.

You should be communicating with a spiritual director and about your sin/conscience and contrition. Not about the state of affairs in the RCC. That’s above your pay-grade.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where in my posts have I suggested that there is an antipope?
Regarding the sin issue

Your bought up anti popes. Oh I see, you just wanted to remind us they exist.

Sin issue, no I’m talking about Confession and reconciliation. Is it important to you?

 

[Lapey]

We both read the same things and draw different meanings and conclusions.

I can only reconcile your arguments by supposing that the Church, when it uses the term “member”, does not mean it in the ordinary sense of the word, that is, of a person who voluntarily joins an organization. If the Church counts you as a member simply by virtue of the fact that a priest baptized you, then it is not of your doing and so there should be no feeling of betrayal by anyone who renounces such a membership.

It’s like if I tell you that because you have replied to my post, you are now a member of the Sherlock Society of Posters, a Sherlockian. You didn’t join; I made you a member. If you decide to walk away from the Society, I might then call you a fallen away Sherlockian. There is no negative connotation to that, as there should be no negative connotation to a fallen away Catholic who never once believed in the tenets of the Catholic Faith. It’s too bad that people (not you) shame a person who conscientiously, although mistakenly, renounces his Catholic faith. It’s only shameful if the person believes in the faith, but to protect his sin, he renounces it, like Henry VIII.

A quick question. If a Catholic priest comes upon an accident and baptizes the Jewish man lying unconscious in the street, does the Jew become a Catholic?

My model for this discussion we are in is the first Christians. They heard, they believed, they asked to be baptized, and they were baptized. That is where I got the fundamental idea that Church membership is meant to be a voluntary thing, requiring both a profession of faith and a baptism, not necessarily in that order. I hope the meaning of the word “member” is the way out of this discussion.

So we should not baptize infants?

Our discussion has hit a wall, unless you are ready to accept what the Church teaches then I don’t see a purpose to continue.

If you can show any document that backs up your opinions then we can continue. Until now all you do is refute what I present from the governing documents through my training on them with your opinions. My words have not been opinions but based on training by professors trained with authority to teach clergy.

I have presented the Churches teaching the best I can and to no avail…sigh. please give anything to back up your opinion.

PS. If you care to use bible verses to do that please use them in context and through the eyes of Mother Church. In other words, to use the "scripture reads that they chose their faith and all vuntarily came to baptism and the Catholic Church, ease remember the head of the household spoke for all; wife, children, slaves of wealthy, etc. It was not a partial conversion it was the entire clan because the head chose it. As another poster pointed out I was born into a Catholic family too. Six days old my faith by family connection was given to me in baptism. Those are the only days of my life that I will ever be able to honestly say I was not a Catholic. No matter what I do the remainder of my life my God will hold me accountable as a Catholic. I nor the world cannot change that.

 

[Steve_Jay]

Your bought up anti popes. Oh I see, you just wanted to remind us they exist.

Sin issue, no I’m talking about Confession and reconciliation. Is it important to you?

Gary you really don’t pay attention do you?
You have been trying to pick holes in the things I have been saying. This is the internet where it is easy to wear a mask and say “I am a Roman Catholic.” I mentioned a forum I had been invited too. It was not the one I designed the templates for. It became apparent that it is a forum that parodies Christianity. When I stated I was putting a Christian forum together, I was attacked and slandered. That forum is den of sin. We pray “Lead us not in to temptation”
Look at things you have said? How do I know the priest I see isn’t a heretic? You don’t even know the priest. Do you Gary?
How do i know that the person at your computer is truly a Roman Catholic? You contradict yourself right left and centre. I have made it crystal clear that we should support the pope. So why are you attacking me if you be a Catholic too?
The Roman Catholic church is the bride of Christ. We are either with Christ or are against Christ. How can we be with Christ if we are against his Bride?

I suggest you go to confession for rebelling against Christ! He said do not judge! So why have you been going against him here? Does that answer your question about reconciliation?

Now may peace be with you.

Go in peace and love and serve the Lord!

 

[GaryTaylor]

I mentioned a forum I had been invited too. It was not the one I designed the templates for. It became apparent that it is a forum that parodies Christianity. When I stated I was putting a Christian forum together, I was attacked and slandered. That forum is den of sin. We pray “Lead us not in to temptation”

No I really do pay attention, and actually listen. I hear every word you say. And I am sorry you feel as you do about the Latin Rite, Pope Francis and myself. I forgive you.

Other forums have nothing to do with our conversation here, sorry, could you remain on-topic. Your here now.

Look at things you have said? How do I know the priest I see isn’t a heretic? You don’t even know the priest. Do you Gary?

You mentioned heretics not I. And antipope, along with a slew of other abberative thoughts. Perhaps you’ll re-read. And explain your reasoning to educate us on anti-popes. No answer as usual?

How do i know that the person at your computer is truly a Roman Catholic?

Your the self admitted visionary, no? Aside from that I openly admit what I believe and where I worship. An issue you seem to have. If your so sure, why is this an issue in proclaiming your Faith?

I have made it crystal clear that we should support the pope. So why are you attacking me if you be a Catholic too?

Have you, by suggesting we read the history of anti-popes? I haven’t heard you say you support Pope Francis by name, show me the post?

Um no you haven’t made anything clear, nor have you here.

No ones attacking you, or making you feel anyway… but yourself. I don’t have that control over you, but in your mind.

The Roman Catholic church

Your use of “church” small c is evasive but again. Are you speaking Latin Rite? Pope Francis or more evasiveness?

I suggest you go to confession for rebelling against Christ! He said do not judge! So why have you been going against him here? Does that answer your question about reconciliation

Who’s judging here but you? So if indeed you perceive this as such, than you are playing tit for tat?

And, no you answered no question about reconciliation and your thoughts on it. Evasive as usual.

Thank you for your concern for me though. And my prayers are with you also.

 

[Steve_Jay]

No I really do pay attention, and actually listen. I hear every word you say. And I am sorry you feel as you do about the Latin Rite, Pope Francis and myself. I forgive you.

Other forums have nothing to do with our conversation here, sorry, could you remain on-topic. Your here now.

You mentioned heretics not I. And antipope, along with a slew of other abberative thoughts. Perhaps you’ll re-read. And explain your reasoning to educate us on anti-popes. No answer as usual?

Your the self admitted visionary, no? Aside from that I openly admit what I believe and where I worship. An issue you seem to have. If your so sure, why is this an issue in proclaiming your Faith?

Have you, by suggesting we read the history of anti-popes? I haven’t heard you say you support Pope Francis by name, show me the post?

Um no you haven’t made anything clear, nor have you here.

No ones attacking you, or making you feel anyway… but yourself. I don’t have that control over you, but in your mind.
Your use of “church” small c is evasive but again. Are you speaking Latin Rite? Pope Francis or more evasiveness?

Who’s judging here but you? So if indeed you perceive this as such, than you are playing tit for tat?

And, no you answered no question about reconciliation and your thoughts on it. Evasive as usual.

Thank you for your concern for me though. And my prayers are with you also.

I have tried being courteous to you. I now have you down as a troublemaker. So stay out of my posts. Understood?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have tried being courteous to you. I now have you down as a troublemaker. So stay out of my posts. Understood?

Excuse me? The OP is US Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope. Your thoughts on it and Pope Francis?

 

[Tampa_Dave]

I cringed when I saw this thread’s title. Pope Francis is guided solely by the traditions, history, and Gospel interpretations imbedded in Church dogma over the past two thousand years. Polls are meaningless and the Church is not a democracy. Pope Francis must lead the Church in accordance with the teachings of the Magisterium. To quote EWTN, the "Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth … Dei Verbum # 10: “The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” Pope Francis cannot lead the Church by popular consensus opinion, liberal or conservative. Like his predecessors, Pope Francis must abide by the Magisterium.

 

[JamesCaruso]

One is a member of the Church in the same way one is a member of a family - not by virtue of any act of yours but merely by virtue of being born to your mother and father. It is a relationship that cannot be severed no latter what you try - changing your name and appearance, moving out of home, denying all relationship etc. And that relationship carries with it obligations and responsibilities.

You will never be allowed to marry a biological sibling, for example, no matter how much you might want to believe that that the biological - DNA - link doesn’t matter, however much you might feel like you don’t have a sibling relationship with this person. Even if you attempt it - heck, even if you don’t know you are related when you try - it will not legally be a valid marriage.

In a similar way, you spiritually become a member of The Church through your baptism. Which changes the ‘DNA’ of your soul, if you like, to create a relationship GATT can never be severed.

Show me the operative difference between Catholic baptism and Protestant baptism, but properly done.

On a different level, can we then tie all unbaptized Catholics to a chair and forcibly baptize them into the Catholic Church?

Cites, please.

 

[Steve_Jay]

Excuse me? The OP is US Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope. Your thoughts on it and Pope Francis?

I’ll answer that.
the cardinals prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide them in the election of the new pope. I believe the Holy Spirit has given the Church the Pope that the church needs. We can be confident that Pope Francis will be a very good pope then.

Is that answer good enough for you?

 

[JamesCaruso]

So we should not baptize infants?

Our discussion has hit a wall, unless you are ready to accept what the Church teaches then I don’t see a purpose to continue.

If you can show any document that backs up your opinions then we can continue. Until now all you do is refute what I present from the governing documents through my training on them with your opinions. My words have not been opinions but based on training by professors trained with authority to teach clergy.

I have presented the Churches teaching the best I can and to no avail…sigh. please give anything to back up your opinion.

PS. If you care to use bible verses to do that please use them in context and through the eyes of Mother Church. In other words, to use the "scripture reads that they chose their faith and all vuntarily came to baptism and the Catholic Church, ease remember the head of the household spoke for all; wife, children, slaves of wealthy, etc. It was not a partial conversion it was the entire clan because the head chose it. As another poster pointed out I was born into a Catholic family too. Six days old my faith by family connection was given to me in baptism. Those are the only days of my life that I will ever be able to honestly say I was not a Catholic. No matter what I do the remainder of my life my God will hold me accountable as a Catholic. I nor the world cannot change that.

It is getting pointless to continue discussion, as you continue to fall back on the teaching authority of whoever taught you instead of dealing with the specific questions and points that I have set forth You could just say you don’t understand the reasoning behind it, and I will accept that. I guess it would be better for me to discuss this with others, for example, the experts who taught you. Somewhere along the line there must be someone who actually knows the answers and reasoning to what I am asking without just telling me that that’s the way they were taught. I realize the questions I pose delve deeply into the theology behind the written word on these issues. I agree with all the cites you gave me. I don’t agree with the interpretations you gave me. I guess we’ll have to leave it at that for now. God bless. No hard feelings.

 

[Lapey]

It is getting pointless to continue discussion, as you continue to fall back on the teaching authority of whoever taught you instead of dealing with the specific questions and points that I have set forth You could just say you don’t understand the reasoning behind it, and I will accept that. I guess it would be better for me to discuss this with others, for example, the experts who taught you. Somewhere along the line there must be someone who actually knows the answers and reasoning to what I am asking without just telling me that that’s the way they were taught. I realize the questions I pose delve deeply into the theology behind the written word on these issues. I agree with all the cites you gave me. I don’t agree with the interpretations you gave me. I guess we’ll have to leave it at that for now. God bless. No hard feelings.

Give me one specific question.

 

[ProVobis]

The Latin Rite. I’ll give it to you in English. How many Jesus’ Christ’s is there? How many Jesus’ Christ’s suffered and died on a cross?

I get your point but this is English?

And by the way, Christ didn’t worship in the vernacular.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’ll answer that.
the cardinals prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide them in the election of the new pope. I believe the Holy Spirit has given the Church the Pope that the church needs. We can be confident that Pope Francis will be a very good pope then.

Is that answer good enough for you?

I pray your conversation if fruitful with the RCC priest. Through the valley of the shadow we walk.

 

[LisaA]

Excuse me? The OP is US Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope. Your thoughts on it and Pope Francis?

HeyI will take the bait since that is the thread and I’m having a really hard time understanding where the discussion is leading.

Its been so long that I don’t recall if it’s this thread or another, but the statement the US wants a younger, more liberal Pope is probably more of a statement on the state of Catholicism in the US. I think catechesis is lacking and probably a result of multiple changes in our culture and in the Church. Parents are not regular Mass attenders and as the initial religious educators of any child, they can’t give what they don’t have. As more and more generations pass, the connection gets even looser. The lack of Religius and Priests have impacted Catholic schools and every day I hear of more closing. It becomes a viscious circle as current culture becomes more and more influential. How often do you see teens or even young kids NOT attached to an iPhone or a hand held gaming device of some kind? On the street, in restaurants, in stores they are all looking down and being influenced by whatever is coming out of their device.

This morning I heard a quote from Pope Francis that the Church should be for the poor and the Church itself should be “poor.” I don’t think he means selling the Sistine Chapel and distributing alms but I wonder if his thought is to use the Church’s resources to evangelize as do the Evangelical Churches that have made such huge inroads in South America where he lived. One way to evangelize is to educate young people. I hope that the Church focuses on the up and coming generations and help them develop moral compasses and learn the joys of having an “other centered” life instead of the self indulgence, do what feels good, legacy of our culture in America.

Lisa

 

[Steve_Jay]

I get your point but this is English?

And by the way, Christ didn’t worship in the vernacular.

Hello ProVobis;
Did you get the whole of my point? What language did Jesus worship in? I’ll say he worshipped in the language that is love.

God bless you.

 

[Elizabeth502]

the statement the US wants a younger, more liberal Pope is probably more of a statement on the state of Catholicism in the US. I think catechesis is lacking and probably a result of multiple changes in our culture and in the Church. Parents are not regular Mass attenders and as the initial religious educators of any child, they can’t give what they don’t have. As more and more generations pass, the connection gets even looser. … I hope that the Church focuses on the up and coming generations and help them develop moral compasses and learn the joys of having an “other centered” life instead of the self indulgence, do what feels good, legacy of our culture in America.

I want to focus both on part of your text and on the subtext as well (regarding Sunday Mass attendance): that is materialism. Bravo, Pope Francis if that is part of where he’s headed on this. Please everybody remember that materialism, especially in the U.S., has had a major effect on attittudes toward Sunday. When I was growing up, Sundays were special and different. Supermarkets were open, and some other kinds of stores, but the Whole World wasn’t open for business. Now Sunday is one of the two prime purchasing days feeding American capitalism, the other day being of course Saturday. It is Avarice gone mad. (No wait, that part is reserved for the 12 a.m. and 5 a.m. openings before/after major holidays, for SALES !!! )

The new God is not The Trinity, not Adonai, not Jehovah, not Allah: it is Money. The trend toward devaluing Sunday as a day of “rest” has gained so much momentum that the concept itself seems quaint and antique. If anything, let’s rev-it-up on Sundays. It’s a major day for sports – and I don’t just mean professional sports, but amateur sports. Less and less genuine family time now characterizes Sunday, unless a family happens to be on a 2- or 3-day weekend trip away from home.

So anything that Pope Francis can do to separate Catholics from the love of money has my vote.