Poll: U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope

[Steve_Jay]

I pray your conversation if fruitful with the RCC priest. Through the valley of the shadow we walk.

Gary Taylor.
You say amen then throw it away with your next comment.
Try reading what I commented on at the first and why i did so. Try reading them in the Light of Christ instead of being in the shadow.
My meeting with the priest tomorrow has nothing to do with me. Why should it? Why should it be about me?
You don’t know Jesus’ enemies from his friends. Jesus gave his life for his friends. So doesn’t it make sense to be among his friends? I can’t be both his enemy and his friend.
I’ll tell you something, I could not have been angry with God because Jesus suffered and died for me had I not have loved Jesus. My choice would have been to have been to have been made as the angels in Heaven. I had no say about how God made me. At war with God and I had chosen St. Michael as my confirmation name. At war with God because Jesus suffered and died for me. No sooner had I declared to God I want no war with him I found myself defending the truth that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for me. Not just for me. How important is that truth? Which church is it that has given me love for Jesus? It is the Roman Catholic Church. I have been highly privileged. I could have been born a Muslim and be saying that the Son of God is a thing most monstrous! That’s what the Quran says. It also says Jesus got someone else to suffer and die for him. How should I feel about that? Muslims have no more say about their birth than I did. So being born in the church is a privilege and not a right!
In Jesus stripes we are healed. Who else can heal the wounds of others in his? No one! The greatest love the world will ever know!

Speculation Gary? Conversion Gary? What have you to say now?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary Taylor.
You say amen then throw it away with your next comment.
Try reading what I commented on at the first and why i did so. Try reading them in the Light of Christ instead of being in the shadow.
My meeting with the priest tomorrow has nothing to do with me. Why should it? Why should it be about me?
You don’t know Jesus’ enemies from his friends. Jesus gave his life for his friends. So doesn’t it make sense to be among his friends? I can’t be both his enemy and his friend.
I’ll tell you something, I could not have been angry with God because Jesus suffered and died for me had I not have loved Jesus. My choice would have been to have been to have been made as the angels in Heaven. I had no say about how God made me. At war with God and I had chosen St. Michael as my confirmation name. At war with God because Jesus suffered and died for me. No sooner had I declared to God I want no war with him I found myself defending the truth that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for me. Not just for me. How important is that truth? Which church is it that has given me love for Jesus? It is the Roman Catholic Church. I have been highly privileged. I could have been born a Muslim and be saying that the Son of God is a thing most monstrous! That’s what the Quran says. It also says Jesus got someone else to suffer and die for him. How should I feel about that? Muslims have no more say about their birth than I did. So being born in the church is a privilege and not a right!
In Jesus stripes we are healed. Who else can heal the wounds of others in his? No one! The greatest love the world will ever know!

Speculation Gary? Conversion Gary? What have you to say now?

Conversation is what I said my friend. Welcome to the forum

 

[GaryTaylor]

HeyI will take the bait since that is the thread and I’m having a really hard time understanding where the discussion is leading.

Its been so long that I don’t recall if it’s this thread or another, but the statement the US wants a younger, more liberal Pope is probably more of a statement on the state of Catholicism in the US. I think catechesis is lacking and probably a result of multiple changes in our culture and in the Church. Parents are not regular Mass attenders and as the initial religious educators of any child, they can’t give what they don’t have. As more and more generations pass, the connection gets even looser. The lack of Religius and Priests have impacted Catholic schools and every day I hear of more closing. It becomes a viscious circle as current culture becomes more and more influential. How often do you see teens or even young kids NOT attached to an iPhone or a hand held gaming device of some kind? On the street, in restaurants, in stores they are all looking down and being influenced by whatever is coming out of their device.

This morning I heard a quote from Pope Francis that the Church should be for the poor and the Church itself should be “poor.” I don’t think he means selling the Sistine Chapel and distributing alms but I wonder if his thought is to use the Church’s resources to evangelize as do the Evangelical Churches that have made such huge inroads in South America where he lived. One way to evangelize is to educate young people. I hope that the Church focuses on the up and coming generations and help them develop moral compasses and learn the joys of having an “other centered” life instead of the self indulgence, do what feels good, legacy of our culture in America.

Lisa

I agree with your take of the catechesis, I believe its the result of many interacting issues. Many which began 60’s and 70’s forward. As far a younger more liberal Pope I believe your also right. I see pretty much all the same things. Its difficult from Church to Church.

I believe he was speaking on humility and yes he stated he wouldn’t forget the poor. In this sense I truly believe him in light of how he lived and worked.

Lisa, I’m not sure about this generation or the next. I believe there is sound and solid generation now from watching the Pro Life march and the audience at the Vatican. And also depending where one attends Church, I also see it. There’s many lapsed Catholics though. In this sense I see a deeper commitment coming for Catholics and in their own formation. This I believe makes the nucleus strong and radiates outward.

Right though being American first then Catholic has also been of issue in bringing in secular thinking to the Church. Its indicative today with Catholics in politics. I believe Latin America will play an important role in the US also. I’m convinced they have much to offer.

 

[LisaA]

I want to focus both on part of your text and on the subtext as well (regarding Sunday Mass attendance): that is materialism. Bravo, Pope Francis if that is part of where he’s headed on this. Please everybody remember that materialism, especially in the U.S., has had a major effect on attittudes toward Sunday. When I was growing up, Sundays were special and different. Supermarkets were open, and some other kinds of stores, but the Whole World wasn’t open for business. Now Sunday is one of the two prime purchasing days feeding American capitalism, the other day being of course Saturday. It is Avarice gone mad. (No wait, that part is reserved for the 12 a.m. and 5 a.m. openings before/after major holidays, for SALES !!! )

The new God is not The Trinity, not Adonai, not Jehovah, not Allah: it is Money. The trend toward devaluing Sunday as a day of “rest” has gained so much momentum that the concept itself seems quaint and antique. If anything, let’s rev-it-up on Sundays. It’s a major day for sports – and I don’t just mean professional sports, but amateur sports. Less and less genuine family time now characterizes Sunday, unless a family happens to be on a 2- or 3-day weekend trip away from home.

So anything that Pope Francis can do to separate Catholics from the love of money has my vote.

Definitely another cultural shift, weekends have become a whirlwind of structured activity.rather than the unstructured play and family events of my distant youth. Instead there are sports to watch and participate, various lessons, weekend school activities. The parents I know function as taxis and ATMs. Funny thing I see a number of my fellow Parishioners at 5:30am workouts at our local club but they say it’s impossible to go to Mass regularly because of all of the child centered events on Sundays now.

We really do worshop a god of consumerism. Not only the consumption of products and services but the consumption of sports and technology and entertainment. No wonder people don’t have “time” for religious activities. Watching this encroach even on Thanksgiving and even Christmas is stunning…stores open Thanksgiving night, “Black Friday” getting the same status as a major holiday. It’s as if we must have constant stimulation to feel alive.

Lisa

 

[october_baby]

Definitely another cultural shift, weekends have become a whirlwind of structured activity.rather than the unstructured play and family events of my distant youth. Instead there are sports to watch and participate, various lessons, weekend school activities. The parents I know function as taxis and ATMs. Funny thing I see a number of my fellow Parishioners at 5:30am workouts at our local club but they say it’s impossible to go to Mass regularly because of all of the child centered events on Sundays now.

We really do worshop a god of consumerism. Not only the consumption of products and services but the consumption of sports and technology and entertainment. No wonder people don’t have “time” for religious activities. Watching this encroach even on Thanksgiving and even Christmas is stunning…stores open Thanksgiving night, “Black Friday” getting the same status as a major holiday. It’s as if we must have constant stimulation to feel alive.

Lisa

Hey, Lisa! good point!

 

[Steve_Jay]

Conversation is what I said my friend. Welcome to the forum

You did say “Conversation” Gary. I’ve checked back. My apologies for misreading it.

I was saddened when Pope Benedict resigned. Then I realised something that told me he had done the right thing. He had made a call for unity in Christ and pointed out that the schism is sinful. It can no longer be said that he made that call because he wanted to be the boss. He has gone on to promise his obedience to Pope Francis.

Pope Francis. Something tells me we are looking at quite a living saint with this one.

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum.

God bless you.

 

[ishii]

Definitely another cultural shift, weekends have become a whirlwind of structured activity.rather than the unstructured play and family events of my distant youth. Instead there are sports to watch and participate, various lessons, weekend school activities. The parents I know function as taxis and ATMs. Funny thing I see a number of my fellow Parishioners at 5:30am workouts at our local club but they say it’s impossible to go to Mass regularly because of all of the child centered events on Sundays now.

We really do worshop a god of consumerism. Not only the consumption of products and services but the consumption of sports and technology and entertainment. No wonder people don’t have “time” for religious activities. Watching this encroach even on Thanksgiving and even Christmas is stunning…stores open Thanksgiving night, “Black Friday” getting the same status as a major holiday. It’s as if we must have constant stimulation to feel alive.

Lisa

Great points Elizabeth 502 & Lisa A. (As usual). What is the biggest holiday now? Christmas? thanksgiving? 4th of july? no It’s Superbowl Sunday! And all the hoopla leading up to it and the halftime show. is a good indication of how far our culture has fallen. reminds me of Rome circa its decline and fall. And Christmas is all about retail $$ now. We are busy busy busy. Too busy to go to mass in some cases. Very sad.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You did say “Conversation” Gary. I’ve checked back. My apologies for misreading it.

I was saddened when Pope Benedict resigned. Then I realised something that told me he had done the right thing. He had made a call for unity in Christ and pointed out that the schism is sinful. It can no longer be said that he made that call because he wanted to be the boss. He has gone on to promise his obedience to Pope Francis.

Pope Francis. Something tells me we are looking at quite a living saint with this one.

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum.

God bless you.

My apology also. Pope Benedict is a brilliant man, I believe he has his best interest in the Church in this regards. His age caught up with him since he spoke on stepping down a year or so ago as it came out as a rumor. I believe this was well thought out by him and will ultimately allow Pope Francis to address the issues with the curia.

Should be interesting with Pope Francis in the next few weeks. I see the way he walks in public he completely placed his life in Gods hands. He’ll be an inspiration for many, already is for me. I hope he’s careful.

God Bless, Steve.

 

[LisaA]

Great points Elizabeth 502 & Lisa A. (As usual). What is the biggest holiday now? Christmas? thanksgiving? 4th of july? no It’s Superbowl Sunday! And all the hoopla leading up to it and the halftime show. is a good indication of how far our culture has fallen. reminds me of Rome circa its decline and fall. And Christmas is all about retail $$ now. We are busy busy busy. Too busy to go to mass in some cases. Very sad.

Ishii great to see you here as well! You really make a great point about the similarities between our current culture and Ancient Rome. Modern day gladiators in a modern day Coliseum. How could I have forgotten the biggest of the “Bread and Circuses” acts? The commercials are as talked about as the game…people will VOLUNTARILY watch them before and afterward as well (I admit to always loving the Budweiser Clydesdales!). I made the mistake of going to Costco the Friday before “Superbowl Sunday” and it was a zoo. I had no idea why the frantic purchases and long lines until the checker reminded me that it’s Superbowl Eve Eve

As to Christmas, you are right about that as well. I remember an essay by Timothy Cardinal Dolan using the image of Our Lady of Guadelupe and asking us, with all of the decorating and shopping and partying, do we have room in our lives for the Mother of God? I think it was Marx who said Religion is the opiate of the people. Today it’s entertainment that distracts us while Rome burns.

Lisa

 

[JamesCaruso]

Give me one specific question.

Dear Lapey,

Thanks for your reply. I had already begum looking elsewhere for an answer that goes into the theological underpinnings of the Church’s teaching on the sacrament of Baptism. But I am happy to discuss this matter with you as long as you are interested in it and as long as you do not have a closed mind to understanding the meaning and reasoning behind what the Church says in its documents. I am more interested in understanding than in being confronted with what is purported to be the Church’s teaching, take it or leave it. Please do not think this wall is insurmountable. I am sure theologians in good standing kindly argue these sort of points all the time. I know that many points about Baptism have already been argued, some settled, some still up in the air. I am not stepping outside the boundaries of Catholic practice in doing so, and I am not arguing for the sake of arguing; I really do want to understand the reasoning and meaning behind Church teaching, and do want to avoid any misinterpretation of Church teaching.

Lapey, you asked for one question, so here goes.

Do you think it is

(1) by virtue of priestly baptism alone (I refer to the universal formula of baptism), apart from any other parts of the Catholic ritual, or

(2) by virtue of the sponsor’s profession of Catholic faith in the infant’s stead in conjunction with priestly baptism,

that the newly baptized infant becomes a member of the Catholic Church, not simply (God forgive me for saying simply) a member of the Body of Christ, washed clean from original sin, and indelibly marked as belonging to Christ?

I tried to word it carefully to avoid any room for misunderstanding, but I recognize both my own limitations and the limitations of written language itself, to convey exactly what we mean in a single stab. That is why these discussions can get so tedious. I have never been a Catholic of blind faith, but always of conscious consideration of, and assent to, whatever the Church teaches. I must admit I am predisposed to accept whatever the Church teaches as being worthy of belief, but in instances like this, I don’t think it is so much a matter of accepting what the Church teaches, as it is of deciphering what the Church is teaching.

Don’t lose any sleep over this; I am not. This might not even be a good place for such discussion, besides the fact that we are off topic, since it is not the kind of discussion that most people are interested in. If you want to take it off line, I would be happy to. I can PM you my email, if you like.

Thank you for your good work for the Catholic Church. You are in my prayers and not in any condescending way. We need good men like you who are willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the Gospel. It is a much unappreciated martyrdom, like that of Mary beneath the Cross.

God bless.

James

 

[JamesCaruso]

Lapey,

I might add also the intention of the infant’s parents to raise the infant in the Catholic Church as another part of Catholic Baptism to be considered. I doubt a Catholic priest would baptize anyone in the church without the expectation that the child would be raised Catholic, although you may know better than I.

James

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Lapey,

I might add also the intention of the infant’s parents to raise the infant in the Catholic Church as another part of Catholic Baptism to be considered. I doubt a Catholic priest would baptize anyone in the church without the expectation that the child would be raised Catholic, although you may know better than I.

James

Can. 96 By baptism one is incorporated into the Church of Christ and is constituted a person in it with the duties and rights which are proper to Christians in keeping with their condition, insofar as they are in ecclesiastical communion and unless a legitimately issued sanction stands in the way.

The intent of one’s parents to raise the infant in the Catholic Church is certainly what should be considered when an infant is baptised however it is not the intent of the parents nor of the godparents that makes the infant Catholic. It is the sacrament of baptism.

Infants baptised in another faith are baptised into their community. In fact most protestant faiths really consider baptism to be more symbolic and a profession of faith.

Catholics do not. Baptism washes away sin. That is why a non baptised person who comes into the Church (especially at the Easter Vigil coming up) does not have to go to reconciliation beforehand…because the baptism they receive washes away all their sin.

A person who comes in as a baptised person from another faith does have to go to reconciliation and they are not considered Catholic yet until they receive all the sacraments. Just because their faith may consider baptism to be a profession of faith (which is why they will often re-baptise Catholics who convert to their faith) does not make it so. We understand what baptism does and that is why they do not have to be re-baptised.

Baptism does indeed claim us for Christ but it also makes us a member of the faith community that we are baptised into. It does not matter what our understanding or age is. A baby doesn’t understand a bath but that does not change what a bath does…nor is it necessary for that baby to understand for it to work.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Infants baptised in another faith are baptised into their community. In fact most protestant faiths really consider baptism to be more symbolic and a profession of faith.

The Church has a different spin on it, Annabelle:

CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Catholics do not. Baptism washes away sin. That is why a non baptised person who comes into the Church (especially at the Easter Vigil coming up) does not have to go to reconciliation beforehand…because the baptism they receive washes away all their sin.

Protestant baptism using the Trinitarian formula washes away sin, too, Annabelle. Did you know that out of necessity, even pagan or a Jew can perform a valid baptism? It is the Holy Spirit that gives the grace of baptism, not the one who baptizes.

 

[Steve_Jay]

My apology also. Pope Benedict is a brilliant man, I believe he has his best interest in the Church in this regards. His age caught up with him since he spoke on stepping down a year or so ago as it came out as a rumor. I believe this was well thought out by him and will ultimately allow Pope Francis to address the issues with the curia.

Should be interesting with Pope Francis in the next few weeks. I see the way he walks in public he completely placed his life in Gods hands. He’ll be an inspiration for many, already is for me. I hope he’s careful.

God Bless, Steve.

Good morning Gary,
I can see two things happening with Pope Francis. Some might take offence at him, as some took offence at Jesus. I can also see many being converted.
His first homily as pope. He has gone straight to the heart of it.

God bless you. Have a great day.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Protestant baptism using the Trinitarian formula washes away sin, too, Annabelle. Did you know that out of necessity, even pagan or a Jew can perform a valid baptism? It is the Holy Spirit that gives the grace of baptism, not the one who baptizes.

Did I say it didn’t? No…just that the Protestant understanding of it in some faiths is different.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

The Church has a different spin on it, Annabelle:

CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

How is that different then what I said? A Protestant baptism makes them Christian and as such makes them brothers…separated brethren. It does not make them Catholic.

Please tell me how you think this contradicts anything I have said.

 

[Lapey]

James’ question -

Do you think it is

(1) by virtue of priestly baptism alone (I refer to the universal formula of baptism), apart from any other parts of the Catholic ritual, or

(2) by virtue of the sponsor’s profession of Catholic faith in the infant’s stead in conjunction with priestly baptism,

that the newly baptized infant becomes a member of the Catholic Church, not simply (God forgive me for saying simply) a member of the Body of Christ, washed clean from original sin, and indelibly marked as belonging to Christ?

I might add also the intention of the infant’s parents to raise the infant in the Catholic Church as another part of Catholic Baptism to be considered. I doubt a Catholic priest would baptize anyone in the church without the expectation that the child would be raised Catholic, although you may know better than I.

Gary – I’m not sure what you mean by “priestly baptism”. I do not know of anything called a priestly baptism. Baptism is ministered normally by the ordinary ministers of baptism, bishop, priest, or deacon. It can be ministered by a catechist if properly trained and required because of lack of regular ministers and duly commissioned for such duty. Also, it can be ministered by anyone, even an un-baptized person without consent of a parent in the case of a child in grave circumstances.

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

Commentary – Remember that the child under the age of reason, or is not responsible for itself as in a case of mental disability and therefore seen by Church law as an infant, the parents speak for them with the help of the God parents. So when this is chosen for a child and is baptized in this Church then that is who they are and they are bound and privileged as such.

Can. 96 By baptism one is incorporated into the Church of Christ and is constituted a person in it with the duties and rights which are proper to Christians in keeping with their condition, insofar as they are in ecclesiastical communion and unless a legitimately issued sanction stands in the way.

Commentary – By Catholic baptism a person is incorporated into the Catholic Church. By Methodist baptism (or pick a denomination with valid baptism according to Mother Church) a person is incorporated into the Methodist Church but also into the catholic church, i.e. universal church; as Methodist do use the valid form, Trinitarian formula.

Can. 111 §1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

§2. Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely choose to be baptized in the Latin Church or in another ritual Church sui iuris; in that case, the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Commentary – Not much I need to say about this…just remember that these “other ritual Churches” the canon is referring to are the Rites which are in full communion with Rome and not Protestant groups or communities.

Can. 112 §1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another ritual Church sui iuris:

1/ a person who has obtained permission from the Apostolic See;

2/ a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the ritual Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;

3/ before the completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 as well as, in a mixed marriage, the children of the Catholic party who has legitimately transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they can return to the Latin Church.

Commentary – Again, remember and keep in mind this code is not referring to any Church other that the 23 Rites of the Catholic Church, Latin Rite being the largest and most well known and the author of this document. So a person can transfer from one rite to another if there is a connection as in a spouse, parent or lineage.

 

[Lapey]

You can see that in these canons that talk specifically about baptism as it pertains to “connection or belonging to” a Church and the fact that there rights and privileges and also duties that come with the baptism.

Also to your last point, it is a requirement of this code of canon law that a pastor have a “reasonable assurance” that a child will be raised in the Catholic faith; however, this has no bearing on whether a child is Catholic or not because by nature of the baptism itself, they are. But in the real world, many times we do perform baptisms that rest assured the parents have no clue what it means to have their child baptized. But if they are catholic, and go through the process of preparation, there are not many times when a baptism can or should be postponed. No matter what the true intent of the parents or God parents are, if the child is baptized, then he or she is truly one of us, a Catholic Christian.

First off, the full understanding of baptism is what is missing in your questions. First off a baptism not of Catholic connection is just that, a non-Catholic baptism that is of proper form is valid but not Catholic, however is catholic. (I have to chuckle at that one!) Baptism does wipe away all sin, original sin of those below the age of reason, original and personal of those who have reached the age of reason. Baptism brings us into the family of God if done by proper form no matter who does it or what connection to a particular community or not. However, if done by a Catholic minister by the request of eligible parents, guardians, or legal representatives, the baptized are connected to that Church by the act and nature of the baptism even if it is against their will as a young child.

Second, the intent of the God parents really is immaterial, hopefully they would be practicing Catholics with proper intent to help foster the faith in the child, but this is not required for validity or efficacy of the sacrament. On the other hand, the intent of the Minister is required! If I baptize a child without the intent to truly baptize, then the child is not baptized.

Sorry it took so long to get back to this, I was in meetings all day yesterday and busy into the night; so this is my first chance to give the questions the attention they deserve. Hope this helps.

 

[Lapey]

The Church has a different spin on it, Annabelle:

CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

The CCC does not go against the CCL or what the Church practices, it is in line with and in full agreement. This CCC does not mean a baptism is anything less than what Mother Church teaches. A non Catholic baptism of proper form incorporates a person to the ecclesial community of the baptism and the universal church and therefore the Body of Christ except not in full communion with Mother Church, the Catholic Church.

A Catholic baptism incorporates a person into full communion with the Catholic Church, and the universal church, and therefore the Body of Christ.

PS. The other affects of the sacrament are present without mentioning as we agree on them, the forgiveness of sin.