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Lapey
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This is good catchesis! But neither me nor Annabelle have said anything contrary to this.
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Lapey
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This CCC is simply stating that baptism of the proper form is a link of common ground which makes us all Christian and part of the Body of Christ even though not all of the ecclesial communities are in full communion with the Catholic Church. This in no way means a baby baptized by a Catholic minister at the request of their parents is not Catholic. We need to read these CCC’s and CCL’s with Latin Rite Catholic glasses; this is who wrote them and this is who they are written for.
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Arandur
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If I might weigh in, thought not yet understanding the full context of your questions and this discussion…so I may have it wrong, but it seems like the overarching issue is in what way Baptism makes someone Catholic in the sense of being part of the Catholic Church.
I would recommend looking into the various Church statements about Salvation “Outside” the Catholic Church. These give context to both how salvation is given us (“Baptism now saves you”), and yet if/how salvation is possible for those not in full, open, visible communion with the Catholic Church. I was just yesterday researching this for some friends who were hearing people claim that the Church condemned all non-Catholics. Anyway, I find this topic very relevant to the topic of baptism and what constitutes some connection with the Catholic Church.
For reference: CCC818-819, 846-848; Lumen Gentium; Gaudium et Spes:22; Ad Gentes, no. 7; Dominus Iesus 6:22. These are referenced in the various links below.
Here on Catholic Answers:
Salvation Outside the Church
If there is no salvation outside the Church, then what does Christ’s death do for those who die without entering the Church?
Does “no salvation outside the Church” include non-Catholic Christians?
What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means
What’s the correct understanding of “no salvation outside the Church”?
Forum threads:
Struggling with salvation outside the Catholic Church
Salvation Outside the Church?
The Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (There is no salvation outside the Church)
Wikipedia (pretty good article):
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
To more directly address the baptism question, I think it’s neither 1 nor 2.
The Catholic Church is the Family (and Kingdom) of God. It contains all who have been reborn into the family of God through baptism (whether actual, by blood, or of desire, even implicit desire). It consists of all who have come out of the disunity of our race under Adam and into adoption by God through Christ, via an accepting response to God’s love in there lives.
Why do we call Pope Francis “Holy Father,” “Pope” (“Papa”)? He is a father to us in this family of God. In this sense, we can see that Pope Francis is indeed a father to more than just self-identifying Catholics in communion with him (for us he is a shepherd that we follow, as well, the first among the apostles on earth). He is a father to all who seek union with God. This is why, I think, so many non-Catholics are so interested in papal elections; there is a subconscious, spiritual yearning and recognition, motivated by the Spirit, that they may never realize but may nonetheless be very real.
Baptism is the formal, knowable sign of entry into the Everlasting Covenant of Christ. It can never be revoked, though we can turn our backs on it. This is because it operates like birth: once born (or conceived), you can never be un-born. You can die, you can even commit suicide, but you cannot undo what has been done.
Thus it is with baptism into the Catholic Church. Once baptized, always baptized. And yes, as I believe you have mentioned, it is the Spirit that does it, by Christ’s High Priestly power–ultimately the sincerity of the parents and Godparents and the state of the minister of the Sacrament are unimportant beyond the proper invocation of the Trinity and the intent to do what the Christ intends with the sacrament (which need not be understood by the minister; intent and assent only is needed, not understanding).
I have sometimes told non-Catholic friends that they are more Catholic than they know, simply by virtue of their baptism. For by that rebirth, our Church considers them official members of the family, however separated they may still be from full communion.
I hope this perspective might help the discussion.
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Tigg
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E: I can even remember the time when liquor stores were always closed on Sundays!I want to focus both on part of your text and on the subtext as well (regarding Sunday Mass attendance): that is materialism. Bravo, Pope Francis if that is part of where he’s headed on this. Please everybody remember that materialism, especially in the U.S., has had a major effect on attittudes toward Sunday. When I was growing up, Sundays were special and different. Supermarkets were open, and some other kinds of stores, but the Whole World wasn’t open for business. Now Sunday is one of the two prime purchasing days feeding American capitalism, the other day being of course Saturday. It is Avarice gone mad. (No wait, that part is reserved for the 12 a.m. and 5 a.m. openings before/after major holidays, for SALES !!!)
So anything that Pope Francis can do to separate Catholics from the love of money has my vote.
Another point - with the necessity of the two-income family now (in order to purchase more and more goods,) working moms only have one day to clean house, do the laundry and get meals prepared for the coming week. Guess which day of the week that is with Saturdays usually taken up with sporting events and car-pooling, Sunday has become cleaning day!
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JamesCaruso
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This is true, but it doesn’t take away from the actual effect on the soul of the one baptized. Of course, some of them may use other than the Trinitarian formula for baptism, making it null and void. Everyone [outside the Catholic Church] baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit are made part of the Church in the broader sense, part of the Body of Christ, and in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.
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ProVobis
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Well, if it means anything, the world’s financial markets are closed on Sundays. Most on Saturday as well.
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Elizabeth502
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I’m afraid it doesn’t mean that much in the larger scope of things.
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JamesCaruso
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But the secular world is upside down, PV, they worship at the altar of the almighty dollar every day of the week, except on Sunday and sometimes Saturday, when they take a little time off to engage in “non-religious” activities.
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ProVobis
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Except that the financial markets affect all 7 billion people living on the planet, not just those who believe God rested on the 7th day.
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Elizabeth502
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I’m not sure why you have a proclivity to distract.
The title of this thread is “U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope.”
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ProVobis
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I agree. The Sunday thing seems to be off-track/off-topic.
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JamesCaruso
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Back to US Catholics-- I think US Catholics want a Pope who leads them in all truth. For some that may take the form of a younger and more liberal Pope. All of us as Catholics want to be led in all truth. It’s just that ideas spread by the enemy confuse the conversation. Various groups of Catholics are led this way and that way, placing too much emphasis on parts of the gospel message and not near enough on other parts. Except for those who may already be living the gospel perfectly [don’t look at me], all sides can certainly learn from each other. I pray for Pope Francis to give us the inspiration and strong example we need to put perfect balance into living our Catholic Faith.
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J_Peterson
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I agree. We can’t just look at the parts we find appealing and disregard the rest. I see both liberals and conservatives do this and we should stop because it makes the Church look like a political organization. If it’s seen as political, then I can understand why people think it can change. I struggle with certain teachings, I try to keep my opinions to myself in these instances and try to come to a better understanding of the teachings.
I think we all need to focus on prayer. As we know, the worst kept secret in human history is that prayer works. I sometimes wonder who’s prayer led me back to the Church. Whoever it was/is, I hope they don’t stop because I still need a lot of help haha
ETA: As a U.S. Catholic, I love Pope Francis.
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JamesCaruso
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I can’t wait to get to heaven and find out who’s been praying for me, as well. My spiritual path certainly wasn’t all of my own doing-- I wonder if any of it was? hahaI agree. We can’t just look at the parts we find appealing and disregard the rest. I see both liberals and conservatives do this and we should stop because it makes the Church look like a political organization. If it’s seen as political, then I can understand why people think it can change. I struggle with certain teachings, I try to keep my opinions to myself in these instances and try to come to a better understanding of the teachings.
I think we all need to focus on prayer. As we know, the worst kept secret in human history is that prayer works. I sometimes wonder who’s prayer led me back to the Church. Whoever it was/is, I hope they don’t stop because I still need a lot of help haha
ETA: As a U.S. Catholic, I love Pope Francis.
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JamesCaruso
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Well said. Thanks. I am going to take a hiatus from the CAF for a while, but this is a good way to leave in one accord. I think Lapey and I have gotten caught up in splitting hairs about the sacrament, which is fine from a theological POV, but probably not so edifying for those who have to suffer through our pontifications. I hope you are right about the subconscious spiritual yearning. I know for sure there is the constant effort on the part of the Holy Spirit and His spouse, Our Lady, to bring these persons into full communion with the Church, which is to say, the closest possible friendship with their Son. Gee, it’s easy to get tangled up in theological language and distinctions, but I believe I said that right.
Thanks for taking the trouble to weigh in. Lapey, if you wish to continue our dialogue while I’m away, I will check my PM from time to time. I enjoyed talking with you and sharing thoughts, and I pray God will give you a most fruitful ministry. God bless. I will come back in time. There are just some things that being on the CAF is keeping me from doing. God bless!
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CMatt25
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I was taking a self-imposed 4 day break from the forum. I see an interesting discussion has pursued though on who can rightfully be called a Catholic and it does relate to the Catholics polled in the OP. But if you mean the written quote I have from an apostolic successor who backs up what you and the deacon have said about one becoming a member of the Catholic Church by Baptism and therefore according to the bishop can rightfully be called a Catholic, yes I have that one.
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Annabelle_Marie
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Care to share it?
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Lapey
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bobbyhillisabro
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U.S. “Catholics”
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CMatt25
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Thank you. You probably should deacon before Holy Week. I’m sure you will quite busy. A break can be refreshing.I think I need a break!!!Welcome back CMatt.
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