Poll: U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope

[Lucky7]

I don’t know how satisfied Catholics are who dissent. My guess would be for some it might be a struggle for them either way. They struggle accepting something and simply can’t.

I would also think however Catholics would prefer not alienating dissenters to the point where the dissenter leaves the practice of the faith for good. If they hold onto pieces of it, maybe still attend Mass on C&E or in whatever way they still hang onto, I’d think there would be a better chance that they might get back into full communion before they take their last breath. Which I’ll assume is what Catholics would want. To tell them they are not Catholic, or are CINO I would think is detrimental.

I struggle with this constantly. I do not want dissenters to leave but to come to the Truth. However, when they reach the level of dissent (vs struggling to understnad, agree, etc), they are not usually in a frame of mind to even hear the Truth. They have decided they are right and the Church is wrong. Period. I have to wonder if sometimes people must leave and then come back. I know that there are numerous such “reverts” to the Faith.

There was a time when I thought more like you. That even if it’s just 2 times a year, at least they are still coming to Church…maybe, just maybe they will come around. I think my immersion in a secular website full of dissenting Catholics where I tried to teach the Faith for years to no avail has changed my thinking. They do not wish to change. They wish the Church to change. And I can not be party to that by saying they should stick around…so they can sway others in their path.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I struggle with this constantly. I do not want dissenters to leave but to come to the Truth. However, when they reach the level of dissent (vs struggling to understnad, agree, etc), they are not usually in a frame of mind to even hear the Truth. They have decided they are right and the Church is wrong. Period. …They do not wish to change. They wish the Church to change. And I can not be party to that by saying they should stick around…so they can sway others in their path.

Your comments reminded me of these conversations:

Where do such things leave the Catholics (and I know quite a few) who are in line with 90% of the Church’s teachings but cannot and will not accept the church’s position on some seemingly vital things such as: Papal authority, abortion position, contraception, the assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary or her immaculate conception, or the ordination of women. Are they to stay and be in disagreement (which these individuals have not budged from in 10, 20, 30, or even 50 years) or should they leave the church?

They have already left the Church. Such a person is no longer in communion with the Catholic Church. Therefore, should not approach the altar for communion. They may still be physically present, but they no longer belong to the Church. They have what is known as an imperfect communion with the Church.

An imperfect communion with the Church is when one posesses and subscribes to some of the truths of the faith, but not to all. This is the case of the Reformation communities. In the case of the Reformation communities, they are not heretics, because this is what they inherited from their forefathers. In the case of a Catholic, he or she is a heretic, because these were not the beliefs that they inherited. These are their own beliefs that they want to impose on the Church or beliefs that they choose to deny.

We must pray for people of any faith who deny the truths that they have come to know.

moral law is objective, not subjective. Allow me to give an example.

The Holy Father declared that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women.
The very sincere and faithful Catholic may say, “I don’t see how the Church does not have such authority. After all, the Church can bind and unbind.” He’s expressing a disagreement with the Holy Father’s statement. He’s making an honest statement. This is not dissent.

Dissent would be if he taught the contrary. Dissent would be if he taught his students that what the Holy Father says is wrong or false and that what he or she believes is correct.

But he simply says it as I have said it above, he’s not dissenting. He’s stating the policy of the Church and expressing his difficulty with it. He has to be very careful to express his difficulty with said policy in an environment where the audience understands the difference. It’s not the kind of statement that should be made in a CCD class or an RCIA class. To do so is irresponsible, because your audience is not at the level where they can understand that you can have an opinion of your own and still humbly submit to the authority of the Church.

The key word is “submit”.

I do not like female altar servers. That’s my opinion. The Church says that they may be used. I have no authority to tell others that female altar servers are wrong. I must submit to what the Church says.

The Church says that girls can be altar servers. She has not said that I have to like it.

On the other hand, prudence tells me that I don’t share this opinion too widely, because someone is going to quote it and try to use it against the Church.

If I express this opinion on my blog, on CAF, in my lectures, in my classes, in every conversation, then it’s no longer just a disagreement. It’s dissent. I know the law regarding this subject. I have no right to undermine the law or to try to upstage the hierarchy with my superior knowledge of what should and should not be.

Can you see the difference between dissent and difference of opinion?

It is one thing to disagree with a prudential decision of the hierarchy. It is quite another to teach what one believes and suggest that others adopt it in place of what the hierarchy has to say. To do the latter goes beyond having an opinion. It is dissent.

In the constitutions of my community, we have a clause that protects the brothers from falling into dissent. It’s a long clause, but basically it says that no brother is ever allowed to publicly express any opinion or say anything that is contrary to what the bishop or the Holy Father says. It does not say that the brother has to agree. It simply says that he keeps his opinions out of the public sector. Then the clause continues to command the brothers to put distance between themselves and their opinions in favor of those expressed by the hierarchy. That’s the second part of this deal. This is the assent.

There are different kinds of assent. All Catholics have a moral duty to assent to lawful authority, regardless of one’s opinion…The Holy Father is trying to help his audience discriminate between lawful authority and unlawful authority. A person or group that expresses an opinion which they do not have the right to express is an unlawful authority. Anyone can have an opinion, but no one can state his opinion as authoritative, unless it’s consistent with that of the Pope and bishops.

 

[CMatt25]

As discussed by you and by many posters/posts on this very thread, one subject of this thread, often referred to you by you at least tangentially, is very much your journey. You are indeed one of the many U.S. Catholics wanting a “more liberal” Church, which assumes possibly a more liberal head of that Church. You have indicated this throughout your posting history on CAF. And when you brought up, once again, someone else’s spiritual journey as a parallel to some supposedly undefined journey we supposedly all are on, you need to be corrected on that. The Church, the church you keep on referring to as one into which you are baptized and own a legitimate membership card (so to speak) does not agree with you that the journey need be mysterious, except in the generic way that Mystery encompasses the life of every Christian pilgrim, including Catholics. That Mystery does not equal perpetual, persistent, and serious doubt — supposedly requiring experimental journeys into other faith traditions, in the dubious attempt to locate “faith” (elsewhere).

No, you “turn” the subject of other people’s undefined “journeys” into a story about you. I read nothing into your posts except what you state and infer. And her comment was about grace. Except that even in the Episcopal tradition, grace does not usually overwhelm an unwitting or unwilling recipient. Not many grace events are as dramatic as what we read about in certain Lives of the Saints. Most illumination into the truths of our Catholic faith happen undramatically, unglamorously, and with the help of a lot of mundane work on our part.

:yawn: Don’t worry about it or me, Elizabeth. Or whether I “own a legitimate membership card”. It doesn’t reflect so in my profile. Feel free to move on or you may have the last word if you feel the need. I won’t be replying though in that case so you can have it.

 

[CMatt25]

I struggle with this constantly. I do not want dissenters to leave but to come to the Truth. However, when they reach the level of dissent (vs struggling to understnad, agree, etc), they are not usually in a frame of mind to even hear the Truth. They have decided they are right and the Church is wrong. Period. I have to wonder if sometimes people must leave and then come back. I know that there are numerous such “reverts” to the Faith.

There was a time when I thought more like you. That even if it’s just 2 times a year, at least they are still coming to Church…maybe, just maybe they will come around. I think my immersion in a secular website full of dissenting Catholics where I tried to teach the Faith for years to no avail has changed my thinking. They do not wish to change. They wish the Church to change. And I can not be party to that by saying they should stick around…so they can sway others in their path.

I sense sincerity Lucky when you say you constantly struggle with this. And true you never know when those who have left the full practice of the faith will return. It’s still hard for me to understand when the most faithful Catholics deny dissenters the right to be called Catholic, why that itself is not dissenting from a teaching of their Church as well. The teaching about Catholic Baptism as the means of becoming a member of your Church with a permanent, indelible character upon their souls. With the right to be called Catholic though perhaps non practicing or dissenting. But I understand the struggle Catholics have. I’ve tired of this thread. But I truly wish you a most blessed upcoming Holy Week. Peace.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I sense sincerity Lucky when you say you constantly struggle with this. And true you never know when those who have left the full practice of the faith will return. It’s still hard for me to understand when the most faithful Catholics deny dissenters the right to be called Catholic, why that itself is not dissenting from a teaching of their Church as well. The teaching about Catholic Baptism as the means of becoming a member of your Church with a permanent, indelible character upon their souls. With the right to be called Catholic though perhaps non practicing or dissenting. But I understand the struggle Catholics have. I’ve tired of this thread. But I truly wish you a most blessed upcoming Holy Week. Peace.

I think its one thing to have true doubts and struggles about teachings of the Church…internally. It’s a whole other thing for those who are willfully disobedient to the teachings of Christ and his Church…and lead others to do the same by their example. They will have to answer for that in the next life.

So that would be the problem with Catholic dissenters…if they are just there to be called “Catholic” and lead others away from the Church in their dissent. Yes…that is the problem we have with some Catholic dissenters…because they are really only their to voice their “authority” and their “dissent”. Those that are truly struggle with some of the teachings but are willing to look at all sides…I have absolutely no problem with. They are on a journey.

Search your heart CMatt25…which are you?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think its one thing to have true doubts and struggles about teachings of the Church…internally. It’s a whole other thing for those who are willfully disobedient to the teachings of Christ and his Church…and lead others to do the same by their example. They will have to answer for that in the next life.

So that would be the problem with Catholic dissenters…if they are just there to be called “Catholic” and lead others away from the Church in their dissent. Yes…that is the problem we have with some Catholic dissenters…because they are really only their to voice their “authority” and their “dissent”. Those that are truly struggle with some of the teachings but are willing to look at all sides…I have absolutely no problem with. They are on a journey.

Search your heart CMatt25…which are you?

But generally, Annabelle, such people (which includes the majority of Catholics, at least at some point in their lives) find that although religion-shopping may be one of their responses to such doubt, it rarely results in resolving those doubts on the one hand, or fully embracing a different religion on the other.

Other religions cannot provide theological and spiritual insight into those distinctly Catholic struggles. They can provide contrast. They can provide different attractions, comforts, and even rationalizations for one’s doubts. But they do not in themselves resolve “struggles.” Story after story on EWTN’s The Journey Home retells this.

It is also true that many cradle Catholics experiment with non-Catholic religions temporarily. Some are fairly high-profile Catholics, such as several of the Catholic Answers apologists. Such Catholics have “seen what they were missing,” and return. Sometimes, given that contrast, the return is accompanied by enormous motivation to learn/re-learn and recommit (thus making the previous struggles easier). However, often the struggles are still there, and time and opportunities for grace have been wasted. Many Catholics admit that ultimately only conforming their behavior to the mind of the Church results in intellectual clarity. (Working in reverse.)

By the way, Annabelle, your post basically aligns with the quotes I posted from JReducation.

I think that leaving is a loss – both for the Catholic individual and for the rest of us who remain. I take no pleasure in people making such a decision, or drifiting into inaction. Again, inevitably and eventually, those who never “wanted” to leave tend to return, because the answers aren’t “out there” and the hunger persists. The resources are inside, not outside.

 

[Arandur]

I don’t know how satisfied Catholics are who dissent. My guess would be for some it might be a struggle for them either way. They struggle accepting something and simply can’t. Yet at the same time might not be satisfied without a faith home if they have not found or not yet gone to another where they are fully welcomed wherever it is they are along their journeys. An Episcopal priest once told me it is only by the grace of God that any of us are where we are. I liked that that.

The Church does welcome everyone at any part of their faith journey. It just consistently invites them to submit to Christ and not try to make Him to their own concept of what is right.

Yes, “but by the Grace of God, there go I” (Augustine has a very similar quote, but I can’t recall it right now). However, we would go further if we responded more to God’s grace, and we drift further away the more we attempt to substitute God’s grace with our own designs rather than opening up to Him and responding positively.

I would also think however Catholics would prefer not alienating dissenters to the point where the dissenter leaves the practice of the faith for good. If they hold onto pieces of it, maybe still attend Mass on C&E or in whatever way they still hang onto, I’d think there would be a better chance that they might get back into full communion before they take their last breath. Which I’ll assume is what Catholics would want. To tell them they are not Catholic, or are CINO I would think is detrimental.

This is why we say “speak the Truth IN LOVE.” We can always do better about the Christian charity part. However, are you suggesting that by even insisting on the Truth of Christ we are alienating people?

I would say yes, but in the sense that people alienate themselves from Christ’s Truth all the time. Just read the Gospels!

And when you do so, remember that the One who spoke The Truth in the greatest of Charity possible also was not shy to call people out, even using harsh words. People should remember that the popular “WWJD” of today includes freaking out and flipping tables as a viable option

So by Christ’s own example, many turned away from Him because they did not want to accept what He was teaching them.

And you’re saying that’s a bad thing? That rather than holding to the Truth, we should teach another “gospel” so that we don’t “alienate” anyone?

Jesus was willing for all His disciples to turn away in John 6 rather than change what He taught. Paul admonished the recipients of his letters to not vary from the Truth that they had received to fit the latest alternatives, twists, or more popular variants.

No you’re mistaken about my profile. I as a Christian profess the Lord Jesus Christ as my God and Savior. And believe despite politics and culture, it is He the One most important of all that all Christians are united in. In He Whom breaks down walls. God bless you on your journey and the ones in the poll on theirs. Peace.

Might I suggest changing your profile statement on religion, then? Because the way you phrase it quite strongly conveys liberalism first, and that Christianity must accommodate it.

Jesus preached the reverse.

 

[Lucky7]

Your comments reminded me of these conversations:

Those are great quotes!

 

[CMatt25]

I think its one thing to have true doubts and struggles about teachings of the Church…internally. It’s a whole other thing for those who are willfully disobedient to the teachings of Christ and his Church…and lead others to do the same by their example. They will have to answer for that in the next life.

So that would be the problem with Catholic dissenters…if they are just there to be called “Catholic” and lead others away from the Church in their dissent. Yes…that is the problem we have with some Catholic dissenters…because they are really only their to voice their “authority” and their “dissent”. Those that are truly struggle with some of the teachings but are willing to look at all sides…I have absolutely no problem with. They are on a journey.

Search your heart CMatt25…which are you?

Until on a “Catholic answers” site you see Catholic as my religion, I am neither. Apparently irregardless of Catholic teaching.

 

[jilly4ski]

Until on a “Catholic answers” site you see Catholic as my religion, I am neither. Apparently irregardless of Catholic teaching.

I think people insist, mostly because it isn’t PC or “nice” to call people “Heretics” and/or “Apostates” anymore.

Surely you can appreciate that they don’t want to call you an apostate and instead moderate that into “not a Catholic.”

 

[CMatt25]

I think people insist, mostly because it isn’t PC or “nice” to call people “Heretics” and/or “Apostates” anymore.

Surely you can appreciate that they don’t want to call you an apostate and instead moderate that into “not a Catholic.”

I suppose although I’ve been called a heretic on my way to hell. I’m not sure what they call the Catholics in the poll of the OP. Dissenting Catholics? Non practicing Catholics? Less than 100% faithful Catholics?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think its one thing to have true doubts and struggles about teachings of the Church…internally. It’s a whole other thing for those who are willfully disobedient to the teachings of Christ and his Church…and lead others to do the same by their example. They will have to answer for that in the next life.

So that would be the problem with Catholic dissenters…if they are just there to be called “Catholic” and lead others away from the Church in their dissent. Yes…that is the problem we have with some Catholic dissenters…because they are really only their to voice their “authority” and their “dissent”. Those that are truly struggle with some of the teachings but are willing to look at all sides…I have absolutely no problem with. They are on a journey.

Search your heart CMatt25…which are you?

Until on a “Catholic answers” site you see Catholic as my religion, I am neither. Apparently irregardless of Catholic teaching.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=767987

(Au contraire)

Note that the thread I just linked above,and this very thread, were both opened by CMatt25.

 

[Tigg]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=767987

(Au contraire)

Note that the thread I just linked above,and this very thread, were both opened by CMatt25.

I really appreciate the CAF posters who are dedicated to promoting and defending the faith on this very Catholic site. I have been educated by many of you (thank you for the links to Church docs of which I was unaware, and for your Christian insight.) But sometimes it’s not hard at all to spot the ones with the opposite agenda. I don’t appreciate this and suspect it is for the purpose of promoting dissent. Isn’t that against forum rules?

 

[Lucky7]

I really appreciate the CAF posters who are dedicated to promoting and defending the faith on this very Catholic site. I have been educated by many of you (thank you for the links to Church docs of which I was unaware, and for your Christian insight.) But sometimes it’s not hard at all to spot the ones with the opposite agenda. I don’t appreciate this and suspect it is for the purpose of promoting dissent. Isn’t that against forum rules?

The closest I see is the bolded below, but I suspect that that is hard to prove. I find it interesting that, on a Catholic website, there is no rule against asserting something to be Catholic teaching when it is not (unless someone else sees it below because I may be blind).

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[Annabelle_Marie]

I suppose although I’ve been called a heretic on my way to hell. I’m not sure what they call the Catholics in the poll of the OP. Dissenting Catholics? Non practicing Catholics? Less than 100% faithful Catholics?

I am less concerned about a label and more about salvation-not on my terms but on Christ terms.

But I strongly suspect on these polls that they seek out those Catholics that will give them the poll results they want-to serve their agenda. Having been on the end of those phone calls.

You fight against the Church and yet are still having a connection -you remind me very much of some of the people in Catholics Can Come Home…who knows maybe some day my prayers will be answered for you.

Peace to you CMatt25