Pop singers to perform before papal Mass at Madison Square Garden

[frangiuliano115]

I always either cross myself or at least nod my head when I pass a Catholic Church, and I live in the United States.

But I also nod my head at the mention of the name of Jesus, the Holy Trinity, the Blessed Mother, and the saint of the day.

I also nod my head towards Father has he walks by during the processional.

After attending a few Solemn High Masses in the Extraordinary Form, you realize how many ritualistic practices lay Catholics have lost in the United States.

Well Phil19034,

Even Italians have lost much. There is not as much christianity here as in the states,which is why I joined the CAF to begin with. I really miss the conversations I used to have with my brothers, for instance.

I do go to a sanctuary about 40 minutes from my home and I know what you mean by the Solemn High Mass. It’s done in latin. Priest facing the altar. Communion the old fashioned way, kneeling at the railing and host on tongue. No hands used here!

Beautiful, what you do. I only bow my head when the procession passes in church or when a blessing is given.

All is good!

God bless you

 

[Hazen_Pingree]

Here’s a little more information on the concert from a New York Times Article: "The show announced on Monday, called “A Journey in Faith,” will begin at 3 p.m. Among the other performers will be Kelli O’Hara, Martin Sheen, James (D Train) Williams and Norm Lewis. The Broadway Inspirational Voices, a Grammy-nominated gospel choir, and the St. Charles Borromeo Choir will also sing. The performance will include the recitation of the rosary and the sacrament of reconciliation."

It’s good to know that, in addition to famous “pop” singers (Estefan, Connick Jr. & Hudson), we’ll also have two choirs, a rosary and the opportunity for confession for those in attendance. My surmise is that Sheen will act as an emcee for the event.

The reason these artists have agreed to perform, I suspect, is that it is a resume enhancer, a la, “I played for the pope when he came to the States.” But do Estefan, Connick and Hudson really need the boost? Despite the well attested quality of the performers on hand, I do think something is missing. Is the Church in New York tone deaf to the music of others in the Catholic/Christian industry?

Why did the Archdiocese of New York invite *these *folks – and not other artists who would have been equally entertaining and, most certainly, more committed to the Catholic faith? Having seen Matt Maher in concert, for instance, I can assure you, he’s the musical equal of any those who will be performing PLUS he’s dedicated his life, his career, and written all of his lyrics in service to the Lord. What a great opportunity missed! Yes, it would be great to hear Broadway Inspirational Voices sing “Precious Lord Take My Hand,” but Archdiocese (the sponsor of this event) is missing an opportunity to promote some of the best Christian artists in America – people who’ve put in their time, their talent and their treasure into publicly singing a New Song to the Lord. Why can’t they be recognized? Why can’t they have the resume enhancer? Why must Catholic artists always be relegated to the marginal markets?

 

[pnewton]

I have yet to read one reason these people singing is bad. Are people just making assumptions (judgment) about their spiritual state? Also, bear in mind that this is a regional pastoral visit to the New York metropolitan area, not the national visit. That will be in Philadelphia.

 

[phil19034]

I have yet to read one reason these people singing is bad. Are people just making assumptions (judgment) about their spiritual state? Also, bear in mind that this is a regional pastoral visit to the New York metropolitan area, not the national visit. That will be in Philadelphia.

I personally don’t like it because the MSG Mass was originally only supposed to be for Priests and Religious only (plus some special guests)

These singers (who should be coming to World Festival of Families instead) are distracting from (1) preparation for Mass and (2) from the World Meeting of Families, which will be going on in Philadelphia at that time. They are taking the focus away from the World Meeting (where it belongs) and putting it on MSG (where it doesn’t belong).

Now, instead of just filming the Mass at MSG, they will also broadcast the singers instead of stuff going on in Philadelphia during that time.

 

[pnewton]

They are taking the focus away from the World Meeting (where it belongs) and putting it on MSG (where it doesn’t belong).
.

Thank you for answering. While I do not know if I agree, at least this makes sense. My reservation is that I do know that it will actually take aware more focus from the mission of the Pope, than it brings in extra people who may check it out and thereby increase the information as to what the Holy Father is doing.

I guess viewership and coverage will give us a clue as to how it plays out. I am ambivalent as to what I think the media will do. On one hand they do not have a good record of portraying the Church accurately, yet they have at times done well at this type of event.

 

[adamhovey1988]

“Classical music” concerts used to be done before Mass, and in churches, no one complained then. I didn’t complain about the super loud pipe organ at the church downtown (well, I guess I am now) before and after Mass.

I fail to see how this is a big deal, specifically if the sound is decent and they’re doing praise & worship or hymns.

I’m with you

 

[phil19034]

“Classical music” concerts used to be done before Mass, and in churches, no one complained then. I didn’t complain about the super loud pipe organ at the church downtown (well, I guess I am now) before and after Mass.

I fail to see how this is a big deal, specifically if the sound is decent and they’re doing praise & worship or hymns.

I think the main difference between the two is what those classical pieces were written for.

Most composers (Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc) all wrote pieces to used during the Mass.

Mozart wrote 17 “Church Sonatas” to be played during a Solemn High Mass between the Epistle and the Gospel

Mozart also composed his Requiem, which was played during the entire Solemn High Requiem Mass. (here is the Introit & Kyrie of the Requiem: youtube.com/watch?v=GC_m_5Ow7ec - at 4:47 the Kyrie starts)

Many (if not most) pieces were written for specifically for High & Solemn High Masses or written for the Church to played before or after Solemn High Masses, during the processionals with the Bishops and/or Cardinals. The Church often commissioned the greatest composers (Beethoven, Bach & Mozart too) to write music for High & Solemn High Masses.

Classical music is VERY Catholic because the overwhelming majority of it was written for Mass.

What the these artists are going to do before the Mass at MSG is not the same. Those singers are celebrating American culture, instead of Catholic Culture.

God Bless!

 

[Hazen_Pingree]

Phil,

Thanks for your reflection on Classical Music. It is certainly part of the legacy of the Catholic faith. A small aside, though…

Bach (who you mentioned) was not Catholic and his Masses were generally scored for the Missa brevis settings which was used in Lutheran liturgies (back then, Lutheran and Catholic liturgies shared many of the same structural elements). His greatest Mass, the glorious Mass in B Minor, is indeed a Catholic Missa tota setting that includes a spectacular Credo section that would be easily incorporated into a Roman Catholic liturgy. Mozart’s Masses (he wrote more than a dozen) were sometimes treated as show pieces intended as much for the concert stage as for the worship space. And Beethoven’s Masses (he wrote only two) were most certainly – based on their immense size and the operatic forces they demand – never intended for practical use in the liturgy.

The main point you make, though, is (I think) worthy of further exploration. I think your point about how this upcoming event seems to be more about celebrating American culture instead of Catholic culture is well taken. But this assessment begs some questions that should be asked and discussed.

1. Is there a “Catholic” musical culture in America?
2. If so, how is it to be defined?
3. If not, why?
4. Why has the Archdiocese of New York decided to feature performances from American sacred musical culture (as opposed to a specifically “Catholic” musical focus) for their “entertainment” at this event?

I’d be interested on comments to any and all of these questions.

 

[CaptFun]

It doesn’t sound ridiculous at all to include a variety of people among thousands who are “greeting” the pope. Do you think the pope only wants to be surrounded by conservative Catholics? He’s shown time and time again he wants to meet all sorts of people with varying beliefs and lifestyles and has personally invited such people to the Vatican for one-on-one meetings.
These few people listed here will be three of thousands…they won’t even be near him.

.

The Pope isn’t being non-inclusive nor avoiding sinners, his mission is to them (… … make that US) if he’s following Jesus. He doesn’t just want to preach to the choir of course. Per this thread … unlimited freedom given to a choir per song selection can be seen to be less than ideal where a “choir” might deliberately play something profane, contradictory to the faith … or in opposition to the worship of God for example. No, my focus was on the Pope’s HOST, the President of my country. A writer in another article put my complaint well.

hotair.com/archives/2015/09/18/vatican-objects-to-white-house-invitation-list-for-papal-visit/

Those invitations didn’t come from The Random Catholic Generator.

They went out to score points off Pope Francis, and came to light late enough that Francis may not have much choice but to put up with it.

No one at the White House is “trying to avoid” it being political — they are going way out of their way to politicize this to pander to their progressive base. It’s an insult, and one that really should have the Vatican consider changing their itinerary to stick to the churches and repay the insult from Obama.

I don’t know what a similarly insulting reciprocal protocal might be. If Francis’ entourage started playing that same game. Maybe he could come flanked by Father Corapi, Ambassador Alan Keyes, Father Frank Pavone (Priests for Life), Michelle Bachmann and the little filmmaker who got jailed instead of the terrorists who were really to blame for Benghazi? If the Pope delayed his entrance to the White House to have an unplanned confab with leaders of the birther movement?

By contrast with this pre-mass event … I considered Obama’s political confrontation by far the bigger irreverence. So much so that the concert might not be offensive at all … but rather a neutral thing. I’ll admit, hearing the pop singers do impromptu and reverent renditions of worshipful hymns that then touched hearts and changed our nation … would be quite a bit better. But I’m satisfied with the daydream for now … and, though I could be wrong, I’m not all that concerned that the pre-mass concert will be anti-Catholic or anything. Whereas this other stuff …

But … thanks for your well considered words re: the mission of the Pope to all … which I don’t disagree with at all actually.

 

[phil19034]

1. Is there a “Catholic” musical culture in America?
2. If so, how is it to be defined?
3. If not, why?
4. Why has the Archdiocese of New York decided to feature performances from American sacred musical culture (as opposed to a specifically “Catholic” musical focus) for their “entertainment” at this event?

I don’t think there is a “Catholic musical culture” in America. I think after the Spirit of Vatican II, most church music in the Church is influenced by evangelical protestantism and by 1970s “folk music.”

Many cantor (not all) do not know how to chant and often have very little theological knowledge. They make decisions on which music to select without understanding the Liturgical Theology behind what the music is supposed to be able or reflect.

If you have ever been to St. Patrick’s in NYC, I think the experience sums up the AD of NY. St. Patrick’s feels more like a museum than a Cathedral. They brag about being “America’s Cathedral” etc. Personally, I do not feel that St. Patrick’s is “America’s Cathedral.” I would select any of the Cathedral Basilicas over St. Patrick’s, plus I would select the shrine Mother Angelica built and the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC over St. Patrick’s too.

St. Patrick’s in a nice gothic cathedral, but it is not a Basilica for a reason.

HOWEVER, St. Patrick’s often does have many classical music concerts there, so it’s not like they always choose secular stuff.

But in my opinion, the real reason why I believe those singers are there is to “increase the importance” of Pope Francis’ visit to New York. The Pope originally, wasn’t really visiting the “Archdiocese of New York,” he was visiting the UN and ground zero. They didn’t want his visit to NYC to detract from the World Meeting. Then the AD slowly kept adding and expanding events, turning the visit to NYC in a bigger visit of the AD.

New Yorkers do not like have a back stage to Philly and DC. I honestly think this is the real, subconscious, reason.

God Bless

 

[Hazen_Pingree]

Thanks Phil,

I pretty much agree with your assessment.

Catholic musical development in the United States is a product of the immigration experience. We see this influence in our uniformly bad hymnals with their selections from various German Gesangbuchs; and the *Bunessans, St. Brendan’s, St Columba’s & Faith of Our Father’s *from the Irish. The hymnals also reflect the English Protestant influence both high and low with their various songs from the Wesley’s and Watts, and transcriptions from Vaughn Williams – not to mention John Newton. The older hymns, while seldom Catholic, at least hold the value of being musically and theologically mature. Our so-called “folk” tunes are seldom volkisch in origin, but are instead poorly crafted pop tunes written by theologically weak singer songwriters who get themselves published by heterodox music houses more interested in making royalty monies than in securing artistic excellence.

The Church in America, of course, is to blame. They give lip service to the musical directives that came out of Vatican II – and I quote from (Sacrosanctum Consilium, 1963) “The treasury of sacred music is to be preserved and cultivated with great care. Choirs must be assiduously developed, especially in cathedral churches. Bishops and other pastors of souls must take great care to ensure that whenever the sacred action is to be accompanied by chant, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs…” In other words, the expectation of the Universal Church was that the Church at the diocesan level would dedicate itself to ensuring that the musical legacy of our faith would be nurtured and developed.

And, it wasn’t supposed to be a backward looking movement either. There was a true commitment by the Church to bring modern vitality to our music. Again, I quote from the same document: “Composers, animated by the Christian spirit, should accept that it pertains to their vocation to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.
Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, and which can be sung not only by large choirs but also by smaller choirs, and which make possible the active participation of the whole congregation. The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine. Indeed, they should be drawn chiefly from the sacred scripture and from liturgical sources.”

If we have turned our cathedrals into museums it is because we have been disobedient to the stated policies of the Church. There needs to be a resurrection in Catholic culture. We need to get off our duff and act with the authority that has been given us. Maybe the next time a pope comes to our shores we can celebrate a Catholic culture for all the world to see.