Pope’s upcoming Apostolic Exhortation likely to call for increased liturgical solemni

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

JKirkLVNV:

Actually, I think I read that there were still ancient accords or agreements that allowed certain cathedral chapters to elect bishops (subject to papal confirmation), but I may be confused.

Yes bishops were once (an possibly still in some places) elected by the cathedral chapters of clergy. Never by the laity.

 

[mom2boyz]

Boy there seems to be a real lack of understanding English. I never said I would be stubborn and sit and broad. I said that if there were parts said in Latin that I do not understand I will say prayers that I do understand, like the rosary. I also said that I understood obedience and will repeat sounds in Latin that have no personal meaning to me. This would not be broading, it would be actively doing the best I am able since I am not skilled at learning another language. I know I’ve tried. As you can see from my post I still got it wrong when I wrote an example about using the wrong words in Spanish as pointed out by another post.

 

[johnnykins]

otm:

Now that is a new charge, that taking down the altar rails has lead to the loss of belief in the Real Presence.

Having been around since well before Vatican 2, and having read a good bit of the history of the Church, I find that hard to sustain, as altar rails were relatively slow in coming into the churches, and the Church. If not having altar rails equates with a loss in the belief in the True Presence, then one has to wonder how we ever made it as far as we did with that belief when there simply were no such things.

It might be better to ascribe the loss of understanding in the True Presence to the dumbing down of catechesis, since is it that which conveys the knowledge, not the altar rails, and it is more traceable to the twits who wanted to change catechetical materials to faith building, and away from dogmatic teaching.

I Have yet to discover anyone who has ever said that they lost belief in the True Presence because the altar rails were taken away; but I have met a lot of people who say they simply weren’t taught about it. Let’s not play the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” card so much.

Actually I said taking down 'barriers." Altar rails are merely one. The whole experiment with descralizing the Eucharist - of which taking down Altar Rails is only one example - has most certainly contributed to the diminution in belief in the Real Presence. No doubt mal-catechesis is very important, but that is tied to how we physically deal with the Eucharist, too. By treating the Eucharist as another thing - and not something sacred - we undermine belief in the Real Presence.

 

[8640]

mom2boyz:

Boy there seems to be a real lack of understanding English. I never said I would be stubborn and sit and broad. I said that if there were parts said in Latin that I do not understand I will say prayers that I do understand, like the rosary. I also said that I understood obedience and will repeat sounds in Latin that have no personal meaning to me. This would not be broading, it would be actively doing the best I am able since I am not skilled at learning another language. I know I’ve tried. As you can see from my post I still got it wrong when I wrote an example about using the wrong words in Spanish as pointed out by another post.

I wouldn’t worry about learning a lot of Latin. As far as I have heard we are not going back to an all out Latin Mass but more of certain prayers in the mass like the Lamb of God and the Holy, Holy, Holy
The amount of Latin will not be too difficult to learn.

 

[johnnykins]

1. Well, actually, I googled both terms and both terms are used (ie, “Cardinal-designate” and “Cardinal-elect.”) So, a very nice compromise (we don’t have to hurl anathemas at each other over this critical issue ).

1. But who does the electing, really? The pope. When one person has the say, then it’s an appointment. It is still, however, refered to as an “election” in ecclesiastical terminology.

“election” in that instance means “choice.” (Based on Latin ecclesial terminolgy) A choice by one person is an appointment - in standard English.

The real issue seems to me to be the hope for a “return” to elections as Frommi stated in post 138. Why that is preferable, I could only guess. Of course, a lot of people are for anything that reduces the role of the Pope and Rome. Yes Bishops have been and could be elected. They are, however, appointed - OK elected by 1 person. Whether it is better to return to chapter or synodal elction, is a completely separate discussion. But chosing the term “election” certainly appears to have motivations beyond mere technical reflection of the Latin used to describe the process, IMHO.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

“election” in that instance means “choice.” (Based on Latin ecclesial terminolgy) A choice by one person is an appointment - in standard English.

The real issue seems to me to be the hope for a “return” to elections as Frommi stated in post 138. Why that is preferable, I could only guess. Of course, a lot of people are for anything that reduces the role of the Pope and Rome. Yes Bishops have been and could be elected. They are, however, appointed - OK elected by 1 person. Whether it is better to return to chapter or synodal elction, is a completely separate discussion. But chosing the term “election” certainly appears to have motivations beyond mere technical reflection of the Latin used to describe the process, IMHO.

AGGGHHH! I hope not! I should think that the American church would be electing Bishop Richard O’Brien or Bishop Andrew Greeley!

 

[frommi]

johnnykins:

But chosing the term “election” certainly appears to have motivations beyond mere technical reflection of the Latin used to describe the process, IMHO.

Look…all I know is the current translation documents make it quite clear that we’re supposed to take everything quite literally from the latin…dynamic equivalence doesn’t apply…so if we can’t do it in our liturgical texts…I don’t know why we do it when discussing the election of bishops.

 

[Brendan]

frommi:

Look…all I know is the current translation documents make it quite clear that we’re supposed to take everything quite literally from the latin…dynamic equivalence doesn’t apply…so if we can’t do it in our liturgical texts…I don’t know why we do it when discussing the election of bishops.

Frommi,

We have a bunch of people coming into the Church at our parish. After the Rite of Election at the parish, they are now called ‘the Elect’

So who voted for them? Are these people ‘voted’ into the Catholic Church?

 

[frommi]

Brendan:

Frommi,

We have a bunch of people coming into the Church at our parish. After the Rite of Election at the parish, they are now called ‘the Elect’

So who voted for them? Are these people ‘voted’ into the Catholic Church?

Uhhh…yeah…it’s the Bishop who ‘elects’ them to receive the sacraments…again…a voting bloc of one…but still an election.

 

[buffalo]

frommi:

Uhhh…yeah…it’s the Bishop who ‘elects’ them to receive the sacraments…again…a voting bloc of one…but still an election.

What about a mother baptizing her infant child?

 

[frommi]

buffalo:

What about a mother baptizing her infant child?

OK…I’m confused what this has to do with anything…

Look…the reality is that bishops are indeed elected as are those who are entering the cathecumenate.

An infant is in a different situation.

I’m not so sure why you guys are having such a hard time with this…oh wait…yeah I do…you guys don’t like being wrong.

 

[Brendan]

frommi:

Uhhh…yeah…it’s the Bishop who ‘elects’ them to receive the sacraments…again…a voting bloc of one…but still an election.

Really, I was at that Rite. When exactly in the process is the voting conducted?

 

[buffalo]

buffalo:

What about a mother baptizing her infant child?

You said they are voted in. I gave you a case where infant is baptized into the Catholic Church - without a Priest or Bishop.

 

[frommi]

Brendan:

Really, I was at that Rite. When exactly in the process is the voting conducted?

The process of selecting those catechumens who are considered ready to take part in the next celebration of the sacraments of initiation. The celebration of the Rite of Election takes place the first Sunday of Lent. The bishop declares in the name of the church that particular catechumens are ready and chosen for the sacraments at Easter. The Book of the Elect is presented to the bishop at this celebration.

Does that clear it up?

 

[Walt_Oliver]

This thread has covered a wide variety of topics except the one contained in the original post. If you wish to continue the current discussion, please open a thread in the Liturgy & Sacraments forum. This thread is now closed.

Walt