Pope: 2nd Vatican Council, work of Holy Spirit but some want to turn back the clock

[ProVobis]

…because it’s not their native language and therefore doesn’t serve the purpose of full participation by the people, which Vatican II called for.

“Actuosa participatio” is possible within a Spanish or Italian Mass as well as a Latin Mass if you’re an Anglophone.

Without the use of the Roman Missile

When is the launch?

No wonder you are lost.

 

[ProVobis]

Are we being given the entire homily? Are the words taken out of context? Was it translated correctly?

When they translate (at the Vatican’s own website) “colere” as “worship” and Catholics end up worshipping Mary, I too have my doubts about every translation that comes out.

I think Anglophones were better off studying the Baltimore Catechism as at least that was written in English.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

“Actuosa participatio” is possible within a Spanish or Italian Mass as well as a Latin Mass if you’re an Anglophone.

When is the launch?

No wonder you are lost.

Yes it would be possible with Spanish or Italian except that the Church documents from history are in Latin and the Church wants to preserve Latin for that primary purpose.

Besides, there’d be some complaints by the French if it were in Spanish or Latin and not French.

Of course I meant missal

That’s what I get for being in two conversations at the same time, one having to do with war.

Jim

 

[Lormar]

When they translate (at the Vatican’s own website) “colere” as “worship” and Catholics end up worshipping Mary, I too have my doubts about every translation that comes out.

I think Anglophones were better off studying the Baltimore Catechism as at least that was written in English.

I have my doubts too about translations. Why then is nothing ever clarified from the Vatican? Wouldn’t it be helpful if word came down as to what exactly the pope was referring to? I am fully aware that he doesn’t owe anyone any explanations, but it would be nice. Instead we are left to wonder, which causes more confusion, and then fighting amongst ourselves.

 

[Lucky7]

Regarding the bold, red text (my emphasis) above, that was not the work of the Council.

The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, stated the following:36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

(snip)

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution. **Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. **

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

(snip)

1. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when the divine offices are celebrated solemnly in song, with the assistance of sacred ministers and the active participation of the people.

As regards the language to be used, the provisions of Art. 36 are to be observed; for the Mass, Art. 54; for the sacraments, Art. 63; for the divine office. Art. 101.

Sadly, so few clerics have been given serious instruction in Latin in recent decades, it would be very difficult to fix this any time soon. I understand that this is in process of being corrected in many seminaries, but it will be a tough slog for a while.

Thanks for this. In case I wasn’t clear my comment about something being inheretnly wrong to go from latin to no Latin wasn’t to say that the Council was wrong…but that something obviously went awry.

I am happy to see that the Council documents do say otherwise.

 

[Lucky7]

It seems to me that, 50 years after the Council, we see that this virtual Council is broken, is lost, and there now appears the true Council with all its spiritual force.

Unfortunately I completely disagree with this assessment. I’m guessing our former Pope hasn’t attended many masses here in the US.

 

[Lucky7]

Does anyone have the full text from the homily? I think that would be helpful in clarifying what the Holy Father intended in his words.

I certianly would love to read the whole thing. I tried to find it but came up empty. The Vatican website provides the full text of his Sunday homilies, but not his daily homilies.

 

[Lucky7]

I am glad that you are willing to accept the “questionable” homily of our Pope! :rolleyes"

To be fair to McCall, I don’t think he meant it the way you are taking it. Questionable is probably not the word he meant to use.

 

[ProVobis]

I have my doubts too about translations. Why then is nothing ever clarified from the Vatican? Wouldn’t it be helpful if word came down as to what exactly the pope was referring to? I am fully aware that he doesn’t owe anyone any explanations, but it would be nice. Instead we are left to wonder, which causes more confusion, and then fighting amongst ourselves.

I’m afraid translation wars and parish segregation became the unintended consequences of playing to the vernacular. (Not to mention having to deal with copyrights, musical arrangements, etc.)

But to be fair, “colere” can have a lot of meanings, such as “cultivate, honor, worship.” The Vatican English translator might have known Latin and English, but he (or they) didn’t know the full implication of selecting the word that he (or they) did. If one studies all the English translations, I’m sure that there are plenty of other such cases. I think Pope Benedict may have had it in mind to re-translate the Vatican II documents but I can see where that might be cost prohibitive.

 

[Lormar]

I’m afraid translation wars and parish segregation became the unintended consequences of playing to the vernacular. (Not to mention having to deal with copyrights, musical arrangements, etc.)

But to be fair, “colere” can have a lot of meanings, such as “cultivate, honor, worship.” The Vatican English translator might have known Latin and English, but he (or they) didn’t know the full implication of selecting the word that he (or they) did. If one studies all the English translations, I’m sure that there are plenty of other such cases. I think Pope Benedict may have had it in mind to re-translate the Vatican II documents but I can see where that might be cost prohibitive.

Then what are we supposed to do? I only know English and enough Latin to get a sense of what is being said.

 

[ProVobis]

Then what are we supposed to do? I only know English and enough Latin to get a sense of what is being said.

The suggestion I would have is to look at more than one translation and check against the original for credibility. If the words are cognates, such as “spirit” for “spiritus,” you’re halfway home. (Still doesn’t guarantee the proper meaning, though.) And, of course, build up your Latin vocabulary as much as you can. Or in the current Pope’s case, Italian, but the principle is the same.

 

[FAB]

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/04/16/pope:_2nd_vatican_council,_work_of_holy_spirit_but_some_want_to_tur/en1-683419

In his homily at Mass today, Pope Francis talked about the Holy Spirit and Vatican II:

Any thoughts about what changes he thinks are needed? How do we change and avoid turning back the clock?

It is important to understand that the Second Vatican Council had a lot more in it than just the liturgy of the mass and having it in the venacular. His quote continued:

The Pope said the same thing happens in our personal life. “The Spirit pushes us to take a more evangelical path but we resist this.” He concluded his homily by urging those present not to resist the pull of the Holy Spirit. “Submit to the Holy Spirit,” he said, “which comes from within us and makes go forward along the path of holiness.”

It is this evangelical path for ever member of the faithful to take should be the focus. It is this path that will bring the faithful closer to Christ and His word. By submitting to the Holy Spirit our path will be made clear for His continual renewal of the Church. The mass in Latin will not renew the Church, just make a very small minority happy. There is much greater call as to the first Christians to spread and live the word. This is Spirit of Vatican II.

DcnFAB

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/04/16/pope:_2nd_vatican_council,_work_of_holy_spirit_but_some_want_to_tur/en1-683419
of the Vatican Radio website

 

[markomalley]

Thanks for this. In case I wasn’t clear my comment about something being inheretnly wrong to go from latin to no Latin wasn’t to say that the Council was wrong…but that something obviously went awry.

I am happy to see that the Council documents do say otherwise.

Post #53 is Pope Benedict XVI’s assessment of what went awry.

You’re welcome.

 

[floresco]

It is this evangelical path for ever member of the faithful to take should be the focus. It is this path that will bring the faithful closer to Christ and His word. By submitting to the Holy Spirit our path will be made clear for His continual renewal of the Church. The mass in Latin will not renew the Church, just make a very small minority happy. There is much greater call as to the first Christians to spread and live the word. This is Spirit of Vatican II.

What Vatican II actually said about liturgy was that it should be a combination of Latin and vernacular. I would like to follow the actual words of the Council rather than what some claim is the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Far too often this phrase refers to the Council of the Media rather than the Council of the Fathers. (My thanks to the Pope Emeritus for these useful categories.)

 

[FAB]

What Vatican II actually said about liturgy was that it should be a combination of Latin and vernacular. I would like to follow the actual words of the Council rather than what some claim is the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Far too often this phrase refers to the Council of the Media rather than the Council of the Fathers. (My thanks to the Pope Emeritus for these useful categories.)

The issues that the pope is addressing is not about the liturgy or the language that is used. It’s time after 50 years to progess pass these issues, mass will continue to be said in the venacular.
There are much greater concerns facing the Church and the faithful, such as the real present danger of loosing our religious freedoms. There is much work to do of evangelization as called for in the Vatican II documents which is about saving souls. This is were the Spirit is leading and holding on to this old anchor about the liturgy is preventing many from hearing the true messages being given.

DcnFAB

 

[floresco]

The issues that the pope is addressing is not about the liturgy or the language that is used. It’s time after 50 years to progess pass these issues, mass will continue to be said in the venacular.
There are much greater concerns facing the Church and the faithful, such as the real present danger of loosing our religious freedoms. There is much work to do of evangelization as called for in the Vatican II documents which is about saving souls. This is were the Spirit is leading and holding on to this old anchor about the liturgy is preventing many from hearing the true messages being given.

The liturgy is an example of an area in which we have not done what the Council said to do. Liturgy is also important for saving souls. Pope Francis was telling us that we recognize the Spirit’s leading in the teaching of the Council. If we did not have the Council, anybody could make up anything and claim it was the Spirit leading.

 

[markomalley]

The issues that the pope is addressing is not about the liturgy or the language that is used. It’s time after 50 years to progess pass these issues, mass will continue to be said in the venacular.
There are much greater concerns facing the Church and the faithful, such as the real present danger of loosing our religious freedoms. There is much work to do of evangelization as called for in the Vatican II documents which is about saving souls. This is were the Spirit is leading and holding on to this old anchor about the liturgy is preventing many from hearing the true messages being given.

DcnFAB

lex orandi lex credendi lex vivendi

 

[ProVobis]

lex orandi lex credendi lex vivendi

 

[FAB]

The liturgy is an example of an area in which we have not done what the Council said to do. Liturgy is also important for saving souls. Pope Francis was telling us that we recognize the Spirit’s leading in the teaching of the Council. If we did not have the Council, anybody could make up anything and claim it was the Spirit leading.

As Catholic we put our trust in the person who is in the seat of Peter and the Magesteruim which in our belief has been lead by the Holy Spirit for over 2000 years, giving the church direction for each age.
The liturgy very much reflects the council and it’s documents, in the following years the liturgy was changed to in acordance with the discussions of the council. To think that some rough bishop or cardinal came up with the changes would be a misunderstanding of the workingd of the Church. With the 3rd revision of the missal, the question of the mass and it’s form should have been put to rest. As the Pope said, there are those refussing to listen to the Spirit, that includes the laity.

DcnFrank

 

[FAB]

lex orandi lex credendi lex vivendi

Yes, but it does not have to be done in Latin. The liturgy in no more holy in Latin, the presence of Christ is no more real in Latin, The connection between heaven and earth is not stronger in Latin.

DcnFAB