Pope: A Christian never closes the door to anyone, those who exclude, generate conflicts and will answer to God [AN]

[I_trust]

Originally Posted by I trust
How about someone who plans on desecrating the consecrated host, and has stated so?..Anyone is welcome?

Of course.

So to extend the line of thinking…
Would a Satanist (who’s only motivation for being there was to obtain a consecrated host for desecration) be welcome in your pew, and by extension should he be also be welcome to receive communion?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

So to extend the line of thinking…
Would a Satanist (who’s only motivation for being there was to obtain a consecrated host for desecration) be welcome in your pew, and by extension should he be also be welcome to receive communion?

First of all, in my parish, we don’t stand at the door and ask guests what their intentions and their beliefs are. We consider hospitality of primary importance, so often we will ask where they are from and if they have a faith community, but that is part of welcoming not interrogating.

So if someone comes into the church and sits down, we assume they want to be there, and that God joyfully welcomes them and therefore we do too.

And since we have Open Communion, yes, every person is welcome to receive Christ’s Body and Blood. No questions asked. So far, I don’t believe the world has ended.

 

[JimG]

Inclusion is good. But I would still exclude jihadists carrying knives from airline flights.

 

[I_trust]

so I don’t know what you mean when you say ‘our sins will not determine our eternal state’. Why would anyone who knows the Father think that?

I phrased this as a question, not a statement, to clarify what you meant by your words “people seem to get the impression that God sends people to hell or to purgatory depending on their sin”

Thanks for your clarification. So I take it you are in agreement with the Church’s teaching that:

1059 “The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ’s tribunal to render an account of their own deeds”

and

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”

 

[LongingSoul]

I phrased this as a question, not a statement, to clarify what you meant by your words “people seem to get the impression that God sends people to hell or to purgatory depending on their sin”

Thanks for your clarification. So I take it you are in agreement with the Church’s teaching that:

and

If you read my signature line you will know what I believe and always have done for my 50 years of life. I just feel annoyed that there is such hostility towards everything I say. All I said in relation to Pope Francis comment that God saves everyone was that it reflects a truth that God doesn’t send a person to hell… people choose hell for themselves. Sheesh.

 

[I_trust]

If you read my signature line you will know what I believe and always have done for my 50 years of life. I just feel annoyed that there is such hostility towards everything I say. All I said in relation to Pope Francis comment that God saves everyone was that it reflects a truth that God doesn’t send a person to hell… people choose hell for themselves. Sheesh.

I am sorry I offended you. I really didn’t know what you were trying to convey, and was looking for clarification.

Just for my own edification…
Could anyone address what the Church teaches regarding the proposition that someone may may freely choose to do a serious sin without freely choosing the consequence of eternal damnation?
In other words, The sinner knows a sin is serious, and chooses to commit it, but does not think he will be damned because he presumes upon the mercy of God?

 

[RCIAGraduate]

I think to sum things up, we are called to be open doors with prudence.

It is easy to be taken advantage of, to be hurt by others but to it is hard to love,
to give oneself to God and neighbor. Let us follow the directive the Jesus to be
“wise as serpents and simple as doves.” (Mt. 10:16).

Peace and Goodwill

 

[LongingSoul]

I am sorry I offended you. I really didn’t know what you were trying to convey, and was looking for clarification.

Just for my own edification…
Could anyone address what the Church teaches regarding the proposition that someone may may freely choose to do a serious sin without freely choosing the consequence of eternal damnation?
In other words, The sinner knows a sin is serious, and chooses to commit it, but does not think he will be damned because he presumes upon the mercy of God?

That simply isn’t a Catholic belief. Never has been. Never will be. For a person to know they are sinning, implies that they *know *what Gods will is and how His mercy is offered gratuitously for us to reach for when we turn away from the sin we were well aware of in the first place.

People might believe all kinds of other things about God and Gods will and that constitutes either ignorance or true malicious evil.

 

[LongingSoul]

CCC1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

 

[LongingSoul]

Here also is a good description given by Pope StJPII in one of his Wednesday audiences as to the circumstances and conditions by which we choose hell…

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.

In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I think to sum things up, we are called to be open doors with prudence.

It is easy to be taken advantage of, to be hurt by others but to it is hard to love, to give oneself to God and neighbor. …

This is what the catechumenate and post-baptismal catechumenate are for - inclusion of those who are “a bit patchy”, those of us who are nowhere near knowing whether we are excluding ourselves from God’s grace or not. Finding out what Scriptures actually say, whether they say anything about how we are called to relate or not, whether they say anything about how we are supposed to trust God in life or not. Finding out what evangelisation is, by being on the receiving end of it.

Someone once said to me that Jesus envisaged a four-year catechumenate (Lk 13:6-9). And that the groups of fifty that the crowd sat down in, and the amount of food left over after it had been shared, illustrate catechumenate and evangelisation (Mk 6:34-44).

Reputedly, after periods of persecution, former apostates rejoined the Church through the catechumenate (I don’t know the source for this).

Anyone who doesn’t drop out can presumably be assumed to be included as the other posters have said - let God sort out tares from wheat, goats from sheep, in His own time. Also, droppers out, receiving a seed sown, can come back later in life (as some believe the rich young man who “had gone away sorrowful” later did).

The II Vat Council called for these parts of the Church to be set up. Every recent Pope without exception has called for these parts of the Church to be set up.

Should we pray for the bishops and their helpers, that this will be fulfilled to the benefit of the needy of heart, despite our fears of incompetence and tactlessness?

 

[Thomas_White]

I am sorry I offended you. I really didn’t know what you were trying to convey, and was looking for clarification.

Just for my own edification…
Could anyone address what the Church teaches regarding the proposition that someone may may freely choose to do a serious sin without freely choosing the consequence of eternal damnation?
In other words, The sinner knows a sin is serious, and chooses to commit it, but does not think he will be damned because he presumes upon the mercy of God?

If a sinner knows a sin is serious, then chooses to commit it while presuming upon the mercy of God, it is illogical that he then freely chooses eternal damnation (having presumed God’s mercy).

 

[I_trust]

If a sinner knows a sin is serious, then chooses to commit it while presuming upon the mercy of God, it is illogical that he then freely chooses eternal damnation (having presumed God’s mercy).

Presumption is a sin, correct?

One can be incorrect in his presumption, correct?

I believe a unrepentant sinner who presumes that he will not go to hell can still end up there.

He chooses hell by his actions.

 

[Thomas_White]

Presumption is a sin, correct?

One can be incorrect in his presumption, correct?

I believe a unrepentant sinner who presumes that he will not go to hell can still end up there.

He chooses hell by his actions.

God is merciful. That one then presumes God is merciful is a sin, you think? How is the presumption of God’s mercy incorrect?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

If a sinner knows a sin is serious, then chooses to commit it while presuming upon the mercy of God, it is illogical that he then freely chooses eternal damnation (having presumed God’s mercy).

One can freely presume, sometimes.

We don’t know who this refers to, of course!

 

[I_trust]

My previous comment:

Presumption is a sin, correct?

One can be incorrect in his presumption, correct?

I believe a unrepentant sinner who presumes that he will not go to hell can still end up there.

He chooses hell by his actions.

God is merciful. That one then presumes God is merciful is a sin, you think? How is the presumption of God’s mercy incorrect?

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

 

[Thomas_White]

I am sorry I offended you. I really didn’t know what you were trying to convey, and was looking for clarification.

Just for my own edification…
Could anyone address what the Church teaches regarding the proposition that someone may may freely choose to do a serious sin without freely choosing the consequence of eternal damnation?
In other words, The sinner knows a sin is serious, and chooses to commit it, but does not think he will be damned because he presumes upon the mercy of God?

Presumption is a sin, correct?

One can be incorrect in his presumption, correct?

I believe a unrepentant sinner who presumes that he will not go to hell can still end up there.

He chooses hell by his actions.

Of course. I disagreed if the meaning of your first comment was that if a sinner knows a sin is serious, chooses to commit it, and thinks he will not “be damned because he presumes upon the mercy of God”, then the person is irrevocably condemned.

I meant that the presumption of God’s mercy without repentence could later be forgiven upon repentence for it, just like any other sin. If the meaning was that there must be repentence for the sin to receive mercy, then I agree.