Pope admits failures on visit

[wisdomseeker]

I wanted to share a quote from a Catholic saint with you all here and ask all of you to meditate on it. I think it ties in nicely with comments on this thread that Iv’e previously made, and ties in nicely with this thread in general. I also don’t think that its just some strange coincidence that I found this quote today, and I wasn’t even deliberately looking for it.

"Those who commit these types of scandals are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, but I’m here among you to prevent something much worse for you. While those who give scandal are guilty of the equivalent of murder, those who take scandal - who allow scandals to destroy faith - are guilty of spiritual suicide."

Francis De Sales

angelfire.com/nb/defendthefaith/quotes.html

I am just wonder what is St Francis saying. is he talking about those who allow such scandals to destroy our faith or is he talking about the leaders who allow such scandals to go on? i am not sure what he means. if he is talking about each one of us, than we must take care that we do not let any scandals in the Church lead us astray from the Faith. we must remain within the Church and abide by her authority until the end despite of someone’s scandals.

 

[JReducation]

fine, so he didnt put it exactly as i wrote it, but none the less the statement he made was a disgrace. if we are to get technical, hitler was raised a catholic, and never left the church. so there is more catholicism in naziism. but this is of course an absurd statement to make. im an atheist, so i took offence to the popes statement. within a vile empire such as that under hitler, im afraid religion or lack of religion plays no part. the twisted nature behind the actions of the nazis is void of morality, or even common human decency. it was not a case that they did not believe in god. just like muslim extremists, they believed they were acting in his name. truly the nazi story is a tale of one man twisting the ideals of a nation to suit his own evil nature. to link a religion to this, whether it be atheism, catholicism, or even mormen, is ridiculous. it was simply a time when one man manipulated a nation, and millions suffered as a result

The point is that when people’s faith is strong, they do not make the kinds of choices that the Nazi, Communist and other regimes have made.

The fact that Hitler may have been Catholic in his youth does not mean that he was a Catholic and he certainly did not learn his hatred for humanity from Catholic doctrine. How many Catholic staints do you know who preached, taught and did what Hitler and Stalin did?

Did St. Benedict, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Sales, Bl. John XXIII and the list gets longer.

The absence of God disrupts the tension that should exsist in every person’s conscience between good and evil, between virtue and vice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[fitzyjr]

The point is that when people’s faith is strong, they do not make the kinds of choices that the Nazi, Communist and other regimes have made.

The fact that Hitler may have been Catholic in his youth does not mean that he was a Catholic and he certainly did not learn his hatred for humanity from Catholic doctrine. How many Catholic staints do you know who preached, taught and did what Hitler and Stalin did?

Did St. Benedict, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Sales, Bl. John XXIII and the list gets longer.

The absence of God disrupts the tension that should exsist in every person’s conscience between good and evil, between virtue and vice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

ill admit that the ideal you have created here is a nice one. if people are truly catholic
they will know right from wrong and therefore not commit such acts which are crimes against humanity. so how do you explain the paedophile priests. and do not say they staryed from the teachings, they were the ones teaching it, people look up to priests to teach them catholic doctrine. so im afraid the whole once catholic you cant do any wrong argument wont fly here. im an atheist. ive never murdered anyone, ive never stolen, i am 6ft 1 and well built but still i have never laid a finger on anyone in an aggressive manner. and i am not the only one. atheists are not bad people. we have different beliefs to catholics, which scares many catholics and they feel the need to attack our beliefs. i do not group catholicism with paedophilia, and neither should catholics group atheists with nazis.

 

[Tenofovir]

ill admit that the ideal you have created here is a nice one. if people are truly catholic
they will know right from wrong and therefore not commit such acts which are crimes against humanity. so how do you explain the paedophile priests. and do not say they staryed from the teachings, they were the ones teaching it,

Hi.

The pedophile priests are a minority of priests. It is also often a trend for most pedophilies to congregate around children, so they’re more likely to seek work as teachers, boy or girl scout instructors, camp instructors, pastors or priests or anyone else who works with or near children. Also pedophilia is a disease and since any sex with children is illegal and immoral it has no sexual outlay - a pedophile can’t marry an adult woman and be satisfied, well most can’t. In terms of atheism there is no moral standard. Hence if it was for the good of society to allow pedophiles to practice sex with children and some scientific method could be used to disprove obvious harm to children, the moral relativism of pedophilia would be permissible in a pure atheist society the way pedophilia was allowed in ancient Roman or Greek societies. I’m basing this on the fact that atheism is moral relativist - there is no God in atheism so there are no fixed morals - the golden rule may apply but only in as far as some political activist group does not prove that sex with older men is not detrimental for young children - then the golden rule would allow sex with children since there is no objective right protecting the dignity of the child (or man), only relative rights which can be bought or corrupted with biased research.

The priests who abused the children (more teens than children and hence ephebophiles), something which is not condemned too harshly in pop secular media (sex with teens) did not commit these acts because of the teaching but in spite of it. Because it was done in secrecy these particular men could get away it and because there were mistakes made by those overseeing them the tragedy occurred. A priest is not an automatic saint but a priest who secretly abuses a child but publicly preaches against abuse is still better than one who secretly abuses children but is quiet about it and other sins. These people were not saintly and one could say did not have the vocation to be priests as they could not resist their temptations. Remember, also that statistically there are fewer child molesters among priests than among teachers despite the closed nature of the Church. This can prove that for many pedophile priests the preaching worked as schools are more open and lack such teaching.

people look up to priests to teach them catholic doctrine. so im afraid the whole once catholic you cant do any wrong argument wont fly here.

Of course someone who is Catholic won’t be automatically free of sin. People are imperfect and so need to work constantly to be better and improve themselves. When there is an ideal - Jesus Christ - to work towards it is easier than just merely working toward a vague, relative ideal - i.e. just do the minimum to cause least fuss.

im an atheist. ive never murdered anyone, ive never stolen, i am 6ft 1 and well built but still i have never laid a finger on anyone in an aggressive manner. and i am not the only one. atheists are not bad people.

Most atheists are not bad people. I have some in my family. However the rabid atheists who spread lies about Christianity are a problem.

I will also give my example. I am not an atheist. I grew up in country run by atheists who would kill people they did not agree with. Meanwhile the Church protected those who would be their victims. The people I most associated with abuse were atheists and not Catholics or other people of faith. Still I am not biased against you, but you are not the Nazi here.

we have different beliefs to catholics, which scares many catholics and they feel the need to attack our beliefs. i do not group catholicism with paedophilia, and neither should catholics group atheists with nazis

I’m glad you point out that atheists have beliefs. This is true. You are also not a Nazi but please realise that people who spread falsehoods and attack people we consider Holy or very important unfairly are in a war with our faith and they fight unfairly. In fact these fights are contrary to the basis of atheism which claims to be reason. If reasonable people become atheist then unfair fights are not necessary - no fights are needed at all. Many evangelical atheists take advantage of child abuse to attack the Church but ignore child abuse in secular institutions, meanwhile the Church does not attack them over their moral relativism in the same way or the fact that Nazis, Bolsheviks, Marxists and other nasty people were de facto atheists.

Look at it this way too. If all people were perfect Christians there would be no problem of war, corruption, crime and so on in the world. The teaching of Christ and the Church is against these nasty things.

If everyone was a perfect atheist people would still find reason to fight over difference in wealth, race, language, nationality, and so on, because there is no moral code to follow that fits with the definition of a ‘perfect atheist’ while there is a code of conduct or moral code that can fit with all ‘perfect Christians’.

I must thank you for being civil and polite, most atheists I come across on online forums get very angry very quickly and become very nasty. Thank you.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

ill admit that the ideal you have created here is a nice one. if people are truly catholic
they will know right from wrong and therefore not commit such acts which are crimes against humanity. so how do you explain the paedophile priests. and do not say they staryed from the teachings, they were the ones teaching it, people look up to priests to teach them catholic doctrine. so im afraid the whole once catholic you cant do any wrong argument wont fly here. im an atheist. ive never murdered anyone, ive never stolen, i am 6ft 1 and well built but still i have never laid a finger on anyone in an aggressive manner. and i am not the only one. atheists are not bad people. we have different beliefs to catholics, which scares many catholics and they feel the need to attack our beliefs. i do not group catholicism with paedophilia, and neither should catholics group atheists with nazis.

Speaking of arguments that won’t fly:

Same old same old claims, that really can not stand up to honest scrutiny. We’ve heard the nonsense about ‘Catholic Hitler’ many, many times before.

 

[JReducation]

ill admit that the ideal you have created here is a nice one. if people are truly catholic
they will know right from wrong and therefore not commit such acts which are crimes against humanity. so how do you explain the paedophile priests. and do not say they staryed from the teachings, they were the ones teaching it, people look up to priests to teach them catholic doctrine. so im afraid the whole once catholic you cant do any wrong argument wont fly here. im an atheist. ive never murdered anyone, ive never stolen, i am 6ft 1 and well built but still i have never laid a finger on anyone in an aggressive manner. and i am not the only one. atheists are not bad people. we have different beliefs to catholics, which scares many catholics and they feel the need to attack our beliefs. i do not group catholicism with paedophilia, and neither should catholics group atheists with nazis.

There is a difference between saying that an atheist is an evil person and saying that evil is rooted in the absence of God, which is a form of atheism. This does not mean that everyone who does evil is a non-believer. The pedophile clergy are certainly believers, but they are not faithful to what they believe. That does not take anything away from the faith that they preached. They preached truth. They did not live faithfully to what they preached. That’s a whole other matter. The goal is to live as we believe and believe as we live, to bring harmony into our existence.

I disagree that Catholics are afraid of atheists. I believe that we are afraid of the consequences of atheism. Atheism lacks a moral compass and a central moral code, leaving the door open for people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and others to make their own moral rules and to teach them as if they were dogma.

There may be individual believers, Catholics and others, who are afraid of atheists. But you will find that these belong to a group that is very fragile in their faith. A man or woman who is solid in his or her faith is not afraid of an atheist. However, he is afraid of the moral chaos to which atheism opens the door.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wisdomseeker]

There is a difference between saying that an atheist is an evil person and saying that evil is rooted in the absence of God, which is a form of atheism. This does not mean that everyone who does evil is a non-believer. The pedophile clergy are certainly believers, but they are not faithful to what they believe. That does not take anything away from the faith that they preached. They preached truth. They did not live faithfully to what they preached. That’s a whole other matter. The goal is to live as we believe and believe as we live, to bring harmony into our existence.

I disagree that Catholics are afraid of atheists. I believe that we are afraid of the consequences of atheism. Atheism lacks a moral compass and a central moral code, leaving the door open for people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and others to make their own moral rules and to teach them as if they were dogma.

There may be individual believers, Catholics and others, who are afraid of atheists. But you will find that these belong to a group that is very fragile in their faith. A man or woman who is solid in his or her faith is not afraid of an atheist. However, he is afraid of the moral chaos to which atheism opens the door.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[fitzyjr]

Hi.

The pedophile priests are a minority of priests. It is also often a trend for most pedophilies to congregate around children, so they’re more likely to seek work as teachers, boy or girl scout instructors, camp instructors, pastors or priests or anyone else who works with or near children. Also pedophilia is a disease and since any sex with children is illegal and immoral it has no sexual outlay - a pedophile can’t marry an adult woman and be satisfied, well most can’t. In terms of atheism there is no moral standard. Hence if it was for the good of society to allow pedophiles to practice sex with children and some scientific method could be used to disprove obvious harm to children, the moral relativism of pedophilia would be permissible in a pure atheist society the way pedophilia was allowed in ancient Roman or Greek societies. I’m basing this on the fact that atheism is moral relativist - there is no God in atheism so there are no fixed morals - the golden rule may apply but only in as far as some political activist group does not prove that sex with older men is not detrimental for young children - then the golden rule would allow sex with children since there is no objective right protecting the dignity of the child (or man), only relative rights which can be bought or corrupted with biased research.

The priests who abused the children (more teens than children and hence ephebophiles), something which is not condemned too harshly in pop secular media (sex with teens) did not commit these acts because of the teaching but in spite of it. Because it was done in secrecy these particular men could get away it and because there were mistakes made by those overseeing them the tragedy occurred. A priest is not an automatic saint but a priest who secretly abuses a child but publicly preaches against abuse is still better than one who secretly abuses children but is quiet about it and other sins. These people were not saintly and one could say did not have the vocation to be priests as they could not resist their temptations. Remember, also that statistically there are fewer child molesters among priests than among teachers despite the closed nature of the Church. This can prove that for many pedophile priests the preaching worked as schools are more open and lack such teaching.

Of course someone who is Catholic won’t be automatically free of sin. People are imperfect and so need to work constantly to be better and improve themselves. When there is an ideal - Jesus Christ - to work towards it is easier than just merely working toward a vague, relative ideal - i.e. just do the minimum to cause least fuss.

Most atheists are not bad people. I have some in my family. However the rabid atheists who spread lies about Christianity are a problem.

I will also give my example. I am not an atheist. I grew up in country run by atheists who would kill people they did not agree with. Meanwhile the Church protected those who would be their victims. The people I most associated with abuse were atheists and not Catholics or other people of faith. Still I am not biased against you, but you are not the Nazi here.

I’m glad you point out that atheists have beliefs. This is true. You are also not a Nazi but please realise that people who spread falsehoods and attack people we consider Holy or very important unfairly are in a war with our faith and they fight unfairly. In fact these fights are contrary to the basis of atheism which claims to be reason. If reasonable people become atheist then unfair fights are not necessary - no fights are needed at all. Many evangelical atheists take advantage of child abuse to attack the Church but ignore child abuse in secular institutions, meanwhile the Church does not attack them over their moral relativism in the same way or the fact that Nazis, Bolsheviks, Marxists and other nasty people were de facto atheists.

Look at it this way too. If all people were perfect Christians there would be no problem of war, corruption, crime and so on in the world. The teaching of Christ and the Church is against these nasty things.

If everyone was a perfect atheist people would still find reason to fight over difference in wealth, race, language, nationality, and so on, because there is no moral code to follow that fits with the definition of a ‘perfect atheist’ while there is a code of conduct or moral code that can fit with all ‘perfect Christians’.

I must thank you for being civil and polite, most atheists I come across on online forums get very angry very quickly and become very nasty. Thank you.

your welcome. and thank you for being the first catholic to be civil and polite to an atheist

 

[JReducation]

your welcome. and thank you for being the first catholic to be civil and polite to an atheist

Bummer, I didn’t think I was rude.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Nordar]

Bummer, I didn’t think I was rude.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

You were not

 

[faithfully]

ill admit that the ideal you have created here is a nice one. if people are truly catholic
they will know right from wrong and therefore not commit such acts which are crimes against humanity. so how do you explain the paedophile priests. and do not say they staryed from the teachings, they were the ones teaching it, people look up to priests to teach them catholic doctrine. so im afraid the whole once catholic you cant do any wrong argument wont fly here.I feel that a man can look like a really good man, and present like a really good man, and say that he loves his wife and family out loud all that he wants. But if he goes home and beats her and the kids… he’s NOT a really good man. Doesn’t matter what he says, or how he acts (putting on an act)… It’s what he actually does. So a priest can wear the clothes, gone through the training, say all the prayers correctly, but if he FAILS to LIVE the Life… he’s not what he says… he’s a pretender. I personally think taken over by Satan. But then you probably don’t believe in him either. Rumor has it, he likes it that way. Those that don’t believe in God are easier recruits, to get his job done… Hitler, etcs… im an atheist. ive never murdered anyone, ive never stolen, i am 6ft 1 and well built but still i have never laid a finger on anyone in an aggressive manner. and i am not the only one. atheists are not bad people. we havWhat do you believe in? I thought it was nothing? Would like more info.e different beliefs to catholics, which scares many catholics and they feel the need to attack our beliefs. But you don’t believe in anything? What’s to attack? That’s swinin’ at air] i do not group catholicism with paedophilia, and neither should catholics group atheists with nazis. I agree with you here. I think paedophilia encompasses MANY groups. I’m sure there are plenty of atheists out there abusing their children as well… I guess no one is shocked by that??? I don’t know.

In the same way that not all Christians are Catholic, Clearly not all Athiests are Nazis. But you can reverse those statements and both SHOULD ring true. That’s the power of logic, and using it in a way that confuses people. For you to be angry about a statement such as “all nazis are atheists” would be like me getting upset that “all Southern Baptists are Christian”. It’s true, and has NOTHING to do with me as a Catholic, a Christian.

Now, It maybe that the people in these circles aren’t TRUE to their definition. I’d rather see: All Nazis are Satanists. Because what they did was purely EVIL… And I’m not even sure a SIMPLE non believer can accomplish that? Not without nearly Demonic possession??? In which case, from my view point, an Aethiest is an easier target. Because from my view point, you’re not protecting your soul. Which you don’t believe you have. Which is why it can be manipulated to that point of evil… it’s being left unattended. And yes, we worry about that. We don’t think all atheists are stupid too! Hitler was a genius. Can you imagine what he could have accomplished had he guarded his soul, and sought only to do good?

And so, I guess now CLEARLY you should see that you getting upset about the idea that someone could look at you an Atheist and anything that you might believe (still confused)and assume Nazi, it about as horrifying as being Catholic, and that anyone thinks we would tolerate and excuse, AS A CHURCH and through our belief system, any sort of child abuse.

 

[fitzyjr]

faithfully:
but you see this is the problem. the church HAS turned a blind eye to much of the abuse that happened over the years. that is the overall problem people have. and also in past decades people felt safer leaving their kids with priests then almost anyone else in the world. they were believed to be infallible, above sin, etc. so its bad enough that the abuse occured, but the fact that the church tried to cover it up makes it so much worse. i am aware that the catholic laeity (quite sure i mis-spelt that, hoping you understand) does not tolerate child abuse, but when the heart of the church is willing to prolong the suffering of these kids by denying and protecting the abusers, something is seriously wrong.

 

[fitzyjr]

Bummer, I didn’t think I was rude.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

you basically told me i lack a moral compass. you have to admit thats not exactly a nice thing to say

 

[fitzyjr]

my apologies faithfully, i forgot to address the “atheist beliefs” part of your post. to say atheists believe in ‘nothing’ is quite ignorant. to believe in nothing insinuates that we have no direction in life, no idea whats going on around us, no clue as to where we want to be in 10 years. we do not believe in a God. so i can only presume this is your reference to nothing. but we have beliefs. i for one believe in evolution. i believe in the big bang theory. i believe that religion was created as an ideal way to control society, and i believe that religion DOES have a place in the world (a belief unpopular among many of my fellow atheists). my entire family is catholic. in times of despair, they look to God. it gives them hope. i look to science. when a family member is ill, i do not hope for a miracle, i hope the doctors and surgeons can do their job to their upmost ability. if the outcome is not good, of course i am sad, but i do not look for some false hope that the person is happy somewhere else. i take solitude in knowing that the time i had with them was great. and i revel in knowing how much the person meant to me. religion controls society. although in recent years people argue it has lost power, it is still massively influential throughout the world, and will continue to be so for years to come.
so i do not believe in God, i do not believe in heaven, hell, everlasting life. but i believe in human kind, i believe in what is right, and i believe that science, not religion, is the key to everything in life.

 

[faithfully]

my apologies faithfully, i forgot to address the “atheist beliefs” part of your post. to say atheists believe in ‘nothing’ is quite ignorant. to believe in nothing insinuates that we have no direction in life, no idea whats going on around us, no clue as to where we want to be in 10 years. we do not believe in a God. so i can only presume this is your reference to nothing. but we have beliefs. i for one believe in evolution. i believe in the big bang theory. i believe that religion was created as an ideal way to control society, and i believe that religion DOES have a place in the world (a belief unpopular among many of my fellow atheists). my entire family is catholic. in times of despair, they look to God. it gives them hope. i look to science. when a family member is ill, i do not hope for a miracle, i hope the doctors and surgeons can do their job to their upmost ability. if the outcome is not good, of course i am sad, but i do not look for some false hope that the person is happy somewhere else. i take solitude in knowing that the time i had with them was great. and i revel in knowing how much the person meant to me. religion controls society. although in recent years people argue it has lost power, it is still massively influential throughout the world, and will continue to be so for years to come.
so i do not believe in God, i do not believe in heaven, hell, everlasting life. but i believe in human kind, i believe in what is right, and i believe that science, not religion, is the key to everything in life.

thanks… I am FAR from ignorant. But I don’t study aitheism, so clearly my question about what you believe in was meant to find out… We clearly have different def. for the word belief. Believing in God, for example, doesn’t show me what’s going on around me, and doesn’t determine if I’m clueless about that or not. Believing in God, doesn’t tell me what I’ll be doing in 10 years, other than perhaps I will still believe in God. But jeez, in the last 10 years, I’ve had friends killed in a war, I’ve had children, I live in an area I didn’t expect to be… Didn’t plan it. Can’t guess what the next 10 years will be. Not sure how believing in anything God, or science determines that. So, your final assumption as to what you believe in and with regard as to what I mean is correct. But now we’re getting way off topic. Perhaps in another thread we can discuss what you make of things that science just can not explain. That could be a facinating discussion.

 

[fitzyjr]

thanks… I am FAR from ignorant. But I don’t study aitheism, so clearly my question about what you believe in was meant to find out… We clearly have different def. for the word belief. Believing in God, for example, doesn’t show me what’s going on around me, and doesn’t determine if I’m clueless about that or not. Believing in God, doesn’t tell me what I’ll be doing in 10 years, other than perhaps I will still believe in God. But jeez, in the last 10 years, I’ve had friends killed in a war, I’ve had children, I live in an area I didn’t expect to be… Didn’t plan it. Can’t guess what the next 10 years will be. Not sure how believing in anything God, or science determines that. So, your final assumption as to what you believe in and with regard as to what I mean is correct. But now we’re getting way off topic. Perhaps in another thread we can discuss what you make of things that science just can not explain. That could be a facinating discussion.

firstly i retract the ignorance remark due to you genuinely seeking info

secondly, i was more so just aiming for the whole philosophical rant there. kinda lost track of where i was going. its late, cut me some slack

thirdly, and perhaps you can provide proof for me of a higher power, or of any of the stories of the bible.

 

[fitzyjr]

my apologies for my delayed reaction on this but i again attribute it to the late hours… my deepest sympathies for the friends you lost

 

[faithfully]

my apologies for my delayed reaction on this but i again attribute it to the late hours… my deepest sympathies for the friends you lost

thanks… and no need to apologize. As, I think when we are passionate about something, AND we’re feeling attacked, we will absolutely hear a tone of voice in writing whether it’s there or not. Human nature…

Hmmm… Proof of God? And or Proof that the or any of the stories of the Bible are true?

Well… and now we’re WAY OFF TOPIC… I happen to like the book “know why you believe.” (which I think is pretty good, but leaves out things that would bring you to Catholicism… but that’s ok for now) And I just started “The Case for Christ” (which my mom loved, but I can’t speak to yet.) These books take what are probably your most basic arguements against the realness of Christ and all that follows… and gives you support for various issues. Christ is counted on the census for example…

There are topics in these books that you might find of interest. Now, if you’re in the position that absolutely NOTHING will be proof short of God standing in front of you. Then, It’s going to take your death for that. And well… can’t help you with that…

I personally, have HAD experiences that I know can not be explained away with science. Many others have these types of experiences. Some have been written about. 90 Minutes in Heaven is one that comes to mind. Although, I didn’t find it particularly a WOW book. It didn’t bring anything new or suprising to me. But for some it might. I would be curious what you think of it! It’s a fast easy read.

We better start a new thread. I don’t know how to narrow down the topic so it may be of use/interest to you… something with regard to sharing our personal proofs??? I don’t know. If it’ truly something you want to discuss… I’m happy to help. And there are some here, although perhaps a bit smug (some of them), quite knowledgeable. If you can give them the benefit of the doubt, and we can give you the benefit of the doubt that not ALL atheists are evil hethans at heart (meant to be a JOKE… don’t get your tail feathers ruffled)You can help us understand the doubt that’s clearly rooted to the core of your being, and you can understand us a bit better. Maybe? I don’t know… Seriously, I was sooooo unexposed to Athiests growing up that the reality of someone not believing is MIND BOGGELING… it probably makes as much sense to me as God does to you right now…

 

[fitzyjr]

thanks… and no need to apologize. As, I think when we are passionate about something, AND we’re feeling attacked, we will absolutely hear a tone of voice in writing whether it’s there or not. Human nature…

Hmmm… Proof of God? And or Proof that the or any of the stories of the Bible are true?

Well… and now we’re WAY OFF TOPIC… I happen to like the book “know why you believe.” (which I think is pretty good, but leaves out things that would bring you to Catholicism… but that’s ok for now) And I just started “The Case for Christ” (which my mom loved, but I can’t speak to yet.) These books take what are probably your most basic arguements against the realness of Christ and all that follows… and gives you support for various issues. Christ is counted on the census for example…

There are topics in these books that you might find of interest. Now, if you’re in the position that absolutely NOTHING will be proof short of God standing in front of you. Then, It’s going to take your death for that. And well… can’t help you with that…

I personally, have HAD experiences that I know can not be explained away with science. Many others have these types of experiences. Some have been written about. 90 Minutes in Heaven is one that comes to mind. Although, I didn’t find it particularly a WOW book. It didn’t bring anything new or suprising to me. But for some it might. I would be curious what you think of it! It’s a fast easy read.

We better start a new thread. I don’t know how to narrow down the topic so it may be of use/interest to you… something with regard to sharing our personal proofs??? I don’t know. If it’ truly something you want to discuss… I’m happy to help. And there are some here, although perhaps a bit smug (some of them), quite knowledgeable. If you can give them the benefit of the doubt, and we can give you the benefit of the doubt that not ALL atheists are evil hethans at heart (meant to be a JOKE… don’t get your tail feathers ruffled)You can help us understand the doubt that’s clearly rooted to the core of your being, and you can understand us a bit better. Maybe? I don’t know… Seriously, I was sooooo unexposed to Athiests growing up that the reality of someone not believing is MIND BOGGELING… it probably makes as much sense to me as God does to you right now…

unfortunately it would probably go as far as God standing in front of me to prove his/her existance. i used to be catholic. i did all the regular stuff- went to mass every sunday, baptism, communion, confirmation, confessions, i was an altar boy, etc etc etc. but as i grew older i questioned a few things. it began with 1 little story (which 1 i dont remember) from the bible. and once i had figured this could not be true i began to questions all the other parts to the bible. so i had lost interest in the bible long before i had lost belief in God.
and then one day i just stopped hiding from what i already knew and came the conclusion that i hadnt believed in God for a long time. so im not sure that God doesnt make sense to me. ive basically decided its as far fetched as santa claus or the toothfairy. to be an atheist when i was growing up you would have been an outcast. but the numbers of atheists are now increasing, and that does not include those who are actually atheists, but will not declare it in case they upset a family member. you see relgion is a very important part of life here

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

You were not

Indeed!