Pope and his homilies are equally interesting

[Brendan_64]

I think we are saying the same thing. There is a true meaning of compassion, and a false one. The true meaning is that we are always ready to accept true contrition. The fake meaning is the National catholic Register type, which means accepting sinfulness and immorality. We must do the former, and cannot do the latter.

I agree, there true compassion, and there is false, superficial compassion.

As to the National Catholic Register, I’m not from the USA, so I’m not familiar with it, I’ve never heard of it before, so I can’t comment on it…

I know, I think you misread me. I said I do not include sedes in my definition of normal traditionalists. Still not sure of the SSPX, looking more negative day by day.

I did misread you. You have my apology for that.

That leads me to another idea of mine, that, if an object or symbol ever looks outdated in the future, it was never any good to begin with. Good design–a Romanesque church built in the eighth century–always looks good, while bad design–overly sappy polychrome images–always looks off, even when it’s new.

I’m not too sure I agree with your point about symbols that look outdated were never any good to begin with (although I too love Romanesque Churches, although I have also seen some lovely modern Churches too). My view on symbols is that if any particular symbol used by the Church has in any way helped the Church effectively communicate with humanity then it was indeed a good symbol for that particular time and place. The fact that these symbols may look outdated at another point in the future does not take away from the usefulness of that symbol within a particular time and cultural setting. Symbols are a language, and like all languages it is a means of communication that changes and develops over time.

I really do think that we can get too hung up on symbols and we run the real danger of viewing our symbols as being divine in themselves, as opposed to being simply man-made tools that we have created to assist us in communicating a divine message.

 

[Dee_S]

I have never been interested in the Papacy.

I didn’t know anything about Popes until two years ago when I came here.

This man, Pope Francis, for some reason, has me captivated.

There is something about him that I find absolutely absorbing and fascinating.

I’ll come clean here.

I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence supporting the existence of any Deity.

But people like Pope Francis and Brother here frustrate the heck out of me.

Such good, intelligent, beautiful men, who have devoted their life to the service of a Being I simply can’t get access to

Bible bashing fundamentalists are good for a giggle.

Extremists of every kind of believer are just dangerous.

But beautiful, intelligent, kind men like Pope Francis and Brother here do make me wonder am I missing something.

It’s people of faith like these that do, honestly, give me pause.

But then I give myself a shake and it’s all good again

Sarah x

:wave:Sarah, …Your words are something of a ‘journey’, they had the power to take me somewhere and squeeze my heart - I know what you mean about Pope Francis, these words I read a few moments ago in his Homily of the Chrism Mass today are beautiful. God’s grace is gratuitous - a gift He gives freely to whom He wants…and that can be a ‘shake’ you’re not expecting

"A good priest can be recognized by the way his people are anointed. When our people are anointed with the oil of gladness, it is obvious: for example, when they leave Mass looking as if they have heard good news. Our people like to hear the Gospel preached with “unction”, they like it when the Gospel we preach touches their daily lives, when it runs down like the oil of Aaron to the edges of reality, when it brings light to moments of extreme darkness, to the “outskirts” where people of faith are most exposed to the onslaught of those who want to tear down their faith. People thank us because they feel that we have prayed over the realities of their everyday lives, their troubles, their joys, their burdens and their hopes.* And when they feel that the fragrance of the Anointed One, of Christ, has come to them through us, they feel encouraged to entrust to us everything they want to bring before the Lord: “Pray for me, Father, because I have this problem”, “Bless me”, “Pray for me” – these words are the sign that the anointing has flowed down to the edges of the robe, for it has turned into prayer.** When we have this relationship with God and with his people, and grace passes through us, then we are priests, mediators between God and men. What I want to emphasize is that we need constantly to stir up God’s grace and perceive in every request, even those requests that are inconvenient and at times purely material or downright banal – but only apparently so – the desire of our people to be anointed with fragrant oil, since they know that we have it. To perceive and to sense, even as the Lord sensed the hope-filled anguish of the woman suffering from hemorrhages when she touched the hem of his garment. At that moment, Jesus, surrounded by people on every side, embodies all the beauty of Aaron vested in priestly raiment, with the oil running down upon his robes. It is a hidden beauty, one which shines forth only for those faith-filled eyes of the woman troubled with an issue of blood. But not even the disciples – future priests – see or understand: on the “existential outskirts”, they see only what is on the surface: the crowd pressing in on Jesus from all sides (cf. Lk 8:42). The Lord, on the other hand, feels the power of the divine anointing which runs down to the edge of his cloak."*
romereports.com/palio/pope-francis-presides-over-chrism-mass-with-1600-priests-at-st-peters-basilica-english-9593.html#.UVRZnjey3Vo
(complete homily at this link)

 

[clem456]

. One has to detach from one’s opinion and self-importance.

Might be the toughest addiction there is.
Just my opinion of course.

Very timely comment as I am wading through St John of the Cross now and trying to decide just how much detachment I am willing to endure.

 

[Dom_Desiderius]

We see something else. He is very orthodox on all of the moral issues of the day. He has no problems saying so. When he starts to speak on these issues, the honeymoon with the “humble pope” will come to an end. People will discover that religious poverty and simplicity does not equal infidelity to the faith and the Church.

To say he is “very orthodox” on moral issues is subjective.

"Morality (from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are “good” (or right) and those that are “bad” (or wrong).

Proper behaviour ? Hmm…


I don’t believe that the faith of the church is manifested in pinocchio puppets at mass.

I believe that infidelity to the traditional liturgy and theology that accompanies it is identical to infidelity toward the faith and the Church.

 

[clem456]

Is that second picture…is that an actual picture, or is that something that was doctored to make it look as if the Pope is a clown?
Did you do that work?

 

[OraLabora]

Oh no, the ubiquitous “clown mass”!

Are those pics really during the Mass? I ask because the chairs are empty, and it looks like the candle is not lit…

 

[Dom_Desiderius]

(capture taken from 2:46 mark of: youtube.com/watch?v=RwS9umpEkvs)

The capture is not doctored, it was made by someone on another website. It is the frames from a youtube video. As far as I know it is a semi official video from the an organization connected to or part of archdiocese of buenos aires.

Misa Arquidiocesana de Niños
Ya es tradicional la celebración de la Misa Arquidiocesana, donde los chicos tienen una experiencia fuerte de Iglesia que se reúne para celebrar al Señor en torno a su pastor.

Esta celebración va precedida de un gesto solidario. Porque compartimos el amor que el Señor nos brinda en la mesa Eucarística, compartimos lo que tenemos con los que más necesitan.

It is traditional celebration of Archdiocesan Mass, where children have a strong experience of Church that comes together to celebrate the Lord about his pastor.

This celebration is preceded by a gesture of solidarity. Because we share the love that the Lord gives us in the Eucharistic table, we share what we have with those most in need.

The great irony is that it is referred to as “traditional celebration of Archdiocesan Mass”. Though I do agree with them that those children are certainly having a strong experience of something.

 

[JReducation]

To say he is “very orthodox” on moral issues is subjective.

"Morality (from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are “good” (or right) and those that are “bad” (or wrong).

Proper behaviour ? Hmm…
http://i45.tinypic.com/2jbs0n9.jpg

I don’t believe that the faith of the church is manifested in pinocchio puppets at mass.

I believe that infidelity to the traditional liturgy and theology that accompanies it is identical to infidelity toward the faith and the Church.

The red is mine.

You have a right to believe or not to believe as you see fit. However, there is a major leap in your position. You’re assuming that there is a break with Church teaching in this situation. And you’re passing a moral judgment on a person based on a personal belief.

Morality is much bigger than this.

 

[Marie5890]

The fake meaning is the National catholic Register type, which means accepting sinfulness and immorality. We must do the former, and cannot do the latter.

Just looking for clarification.
Do you mean the National Catholic Register or the National Catholic Reporter?

Thanks.

 

[agnes_therese]

Sure. With all the seats empty.

 

[OraLabora]

Dom_Desiderius, I fail to see any improper behaviour at that youth Mass, by then-Cardinal Bergoglio. I watched the video, and the rubrics were followed to a t. You may not like the music or the presence of puppets, that’s your right, but to accuse the Holy Father of improper behaviour is not only uncharitable but is against forum rules.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

I’m starting to warm up to Pope Francis. I knew nothing about Pope Francis prior to the conclave, so the process has taken time. He is a good man with a virtuous heart.

 

[JReducation]

Again . . for the benefit of those who came in late. Pope Francis is a both a priest and a religious. He’s going to exercise the priestly ministry of Peter, but not the way that his secular predecessors did. He will do so as a religious would.

There is a wonderful program on EWTN that they put on every year this week, “Praying With Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane” It’s the liturgy of Good Friday with the Observant Franciscan Friars who have been the custodians of the Holy Land since 1219.

If you watch it, you’ll wonder what the heck is going on. The friar-priests are wearing stoles and no albs. The friar-deacons are wearing their stoles diagonally across their habits. The answer is simple. They are religious. They have their own traditions approved by the Church.

The same is true of every religious order. In three months time, we won’t even notice that Pope Francis is a religious. The newness and the surprise will wear off and we’ll go on with life as normal. We have to be patient with ourselves.

When the next secular pope is elected, we’ll feel as if we’re going backward, which is not true. We’ll just be transitioning again. Right now we’re transitioning from secular popes to a regular pope. In the future, we’ll probably be transitioning back to a secular pope. There are not many regular cardinals.

 

[Dee_S]

Each step of the way I kept repeating what St. Maximilian Kolbe, the great Franciscan martyr of the 20th century said, “Forget not love.” That line got me threw single fatherhood.

One has to ask himself, where does love come from? What does it really mean? Why do we love when it hurts to do so? I can’t deny the existence of love, but I can’t answer all the questions either. I truly believe that questions are not an accident. They exist to draw us beyond ourselves. They exist to move us to transcend. Transcend into what? There’s the mystery. The only person who has been able to give me a satisfactory answer is Jesus of Nazareth. If they ever find the body, I will have lost nothing, because I have loved, been loved and understood love.

:hearteus Caritas Est by Pope Benedict XVI

“On the other hand, man cannot live by oblative, descending love alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift. Certainly, as the Lord tells us, one can become a source from which rivers of living water flow (cf.* Jn* 7:37-38). Yet to become such a source, one must constantly drink anew from the original source, which is Jesus Christ, from whose pierced heart flows the love of God (cf.* Jn* 19:34).”

“Only if I serve my neighbour can my eyes be opened to what God does for me and how much he loves me…”.

“No longer is it a question, then, of a “commandment” imposed from without and calling for the impossible, but rather of a freely-bestowed experience of love from within, a love which by its very nature must then be shared with others. Love grows through love.”

“Love is “divine” because it comes from God and unites us to God; through this unifying process it makes us a “we” which transcends our divisions and makes us one, until in the end God is “all in all” (*1 Cor *15:28).”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

 

[Rich_C]

When the next secular pope is elected, we’ll feel as if we’re going backward, which is not true.

Elsewhere I’ve seen this point brought up. The next pope will have a hard time doing anything without being bad mouthed by the media and probably a lot of Western Catholics, because he “won’t be as humble as Pope Francis was,” but that’s a cross he’ll have to bear, I suppose.

 

[JReducation]

Elsewhere I’ve seen this point brought up. The next pope will have a hard time doing anything without being bad mouthed by the media and probably a lot of Western Catholics, because he “won’t be as humble as Pope Francis was,” but that’s a cross he’ll have to bear, I suppose.

Unfortunately, you’re right. I wish I could say that you’re wrong. It will be a hardship, because people do not understand that the pope has a vocation within his vocation to the papacy. They don’t understand that the papacy as we know it today is really the product of centuries of layers. Every pope brings with him his gifts and a charism. When he leaves, those remain and form another layer on the papacy. That’s why it looks so different from the papacy of Peter. But people don’t recognize that these are gifts. Instead, they make comparisons that are invalid.

If someone were to ask me which makes a better pet, a cat or a dog, I’d have to say that there is no comparison. I have one of each and they are very different creatures. Each makes a different contribution to the community’s life. Br. Bill loves having the cat on his lap. Br. Chris loves horseplay with the dog. Is the dog more playful? Yes. Is the cat more affectionate? Yes. Which is better, playful or affectionate? What kind of question is that? The same applies to human beings.

Which makes a better pope, a priest who’s a religious or a priest who’s a secular? That’s like the cat and dog question.

 

[atheistgirl]

There are not many regular cardinals.

How does a man in an Order get to be a Cardinal?

Is it the Pope that selects him, personally?

I don’t quite understand the cross-over point where you go from being a member of a Religious Order to being a Cardinal of the Church.

Why are there not many?

Is it just so, or is there a quota on the number of men from Orders who can be Cardinals?

Sarah x

 

[JReducation]

How does a man in an Order get to be a Cardinal?

Is it the Pope that selects him, personally?

I don’t quite understand the cross-over point where you go from being a member of a Religious Order to being a Cardinal of the Church.

Why are there not many?

Is it just so, or is there a quota on the number of men from Orders who can be Cardinals?

Sarah x

A cardinal is an honorary title given to a Catholic male. He need not be a priest. Currently, all of the cardinals are bishops. The last cardinal who was not a bishop died a few years ago.

A religious doesn’t cross over. He remains a religious. That is, he remains a member of his religious community. As a cardinal, he has additional rights and responsibilities in the Church: these include helping the pope govern and electing the pope.

There are less cardinals who are religious, because the number of religious is less than the number of secular priests. Once upon a time, most men who wanted to be priests would also enter a religious order become both, priest and religious. That has not been the case during the last 60 years. The majority of men called to the priesthood are not called to be consecrated men. They join a diocese and remain secular men. On the flip side, the larger number of men being called to be consecrated men are not being called to be priests. They join religious orders, but don’t become priests.

The problem that so many people are having is that they do not get to see religious life in their parishes. They’re not familiar with certain points of view and certain acts of austerity that are normal for those of us who are religious. To the average Catholic in the pew, a pope who lives in a two room suite at a one star hotel is outrageous. To us who are religious, this sounds right if that pope is a religious, because it’s what we have been programmed to do and how we’ve been programmed to think about the Church and about the papacy. We see it as a ministry, not as a monarchy.

 

[atheistgirl]

Blessed by whom? .

I’ve been hanging out with Catholics for too long

A cardinal is an honorary title given to a Catholic male.

This, I didn’t know.

It’s an interesting point that men entering Orders now feel more of a calling to be Brothers rather than Priests. (I know I got that wrong, I think you explained somewhere Brothers can be Priests, but you understand what I’m saying, called to the Religious life but not the Priesthood).

It’s also interesting that the Pope, the most senior figure in the Church, comes from the ranks of the Religious, which is experiencing this growth.

Perhaps it’s a sign that the renewal I hear people say the Church needs will come from those who embrace, in the form of being a living embodiment and public witness to, the ideals of poverty.

Sarah x

 

[shelby_sun]

The problem that so many people are having is that they do not get to see religious life in their parishes. They’re not familiar with certain points of view and certain acts of austerity that are normal for those of us who are religious. To the average Catholic in the pew, a pope who lives in a two room suite at a one star hotel is outrageous. To us who are religious, this sounds right if that pope is a religious, because it’s what we have been programmed to do and how we’ve been programmed to think about the Church and about the papacy. We see it as a ministry, not as a monarchy.

Bro. That is a very good explanation. For those of us raise with religious priest, we have lived with Popes that we just could not identify with. At times, it felt like I was a part of a whole other religion. I feel more connected to the Church now as never before, so I feel for those who are trying to adjust to Pope Francis and his ways, but I truly feel if they are patient, they will see a “purer” church that is very Christ like. Hopefully they will start to remember that Christ did not want to wear fancy, expensive clothes or live in a ornate home. He wanted to be with people. speaking directly to them, not from a balcony, but face to face, as one of them.