Pope and news

[JimG]

While every nation has income inequality, as Catholics we are called to have a preferential option for the poor, which by definition is concerned with reducing income inequality.

Well yes, we should have a preferential option for the poor. But how is that exercised? By individuals, certainly. By parishes and charitable organizations, yes. But also by government. Programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and a whole variety of programs are meant to help the poor. But balance is required, because if a nation bankrupts itself or makes its currency worthless, the poor are the worst losers.

And how should businesses show a preferential option for the poor? Should Apple give free phones the poor? Should ATT give free TV packages? I see a lot of possible social policy options here that can never be doctrinal.

 

[Magdalena59]

While every nation has income inequality, as Catholics we are called to have a preferential option for the poor, which by definition is concerned with reducing income inequality.

 

[LongingSoul]

Not one single phrase in this whole post is objective. There are very few ceo’s that can not justify their pay rate. As to there being too many large companies that monopolize and industry, well there isnt any.

I can’t tell whether you’re having a joke or being weirdly serious? Even Adam Smith the champion of laissez faire economy factored in the reality of human greed as a toxic force. From Wealth of Nations…

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less render them necessary. (148)​

… and of stock jocks he had this to say…

The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it. (287-288)​

So he is saying that government has a duty to watch that policy doesn’t facilitate the inevitable anti public-good forces in the free market.

 

[SMH_2015]

The Pope “won’t tolerate” income inequality…? If he “won’t tolerate” abortion in America, I might sit up & take notice.

 

[franklinstower]

I know a lot of people who just want to live a very simple life-- whose vocation is prayer and growing in holiness. People who wake up and the first thing they think of is not how to make more money or even to better their career but whose first thought is God and prayer and whose second thought is who can I serve today, who can I help bring closer to God? who can I show a way for God to heal them? There are lots of people who just want to do something simple in the area of career and place all their attention on growing closer to God and helping others to do so.

It is getting harder and harder for good simple people to live a simple life close to God. There has to be a basic level of dignity for all people who work, and if others want to spend a good deal of time focusing on accumulating wealth that’s fine, but that extra wealth has to be accumulated only after people at the lowest end of the economic scale have enough for basic dignity.

If society is going to produce jobs that need people to work them then those jobs ought to provide basic dignity for those people, a small simple home, health care, and the ability to educate their children is not so much to ask… Lets not forget that there are people called by God to live simply, there are people with learning disabilities who cant get college degrees or work intellectually demanding jobs, and there are people of low intelligence who also cannot. We should not let them slip through the cracks.

 

[Tim_D]

Pope Francis has famously described the unrestrained pursuit of profit as “the dung of the devil’;” “a new tyranny” He also noted that, money must serve, not rule.

Seeing that America is the land of economic regulation, I don’t see how that applies here. We can’t even build a pipeline to Canada even though all of the states want it because it is against the liberal mentality of the one who occupies the White House.

I am so sick of the abuse that is heaped upon the free markets of America. From the top CEOs to the guy who owns his own lawn service, everyone has a chance if they want to take the risk. If things are as bad as some say, then why is it everyone in the world wants to come here?

As far as money serving and not ruling, ask the 47% who are receiving some sort of government subsidy or the bottom 50% who don’t pay anything in taxes. Whatever happened to if you don’t work, you don’t eat?

 

[Tim_D]

If society is going to produce jobs that need people to work them then those jobs ought to provide basic dignity for those people, a small simple home, health care, and the ability to educate their children is not so much to ask.

Just curious…how many people do you employ?

 

[3_Dog_Night]

That really is an odd expression. If you don’t want income inequality, do away with the Federal Reserve and change the laws on banking, finance, monopolies, securities trading, etc. Root out and punish the fraud, graft and corruption. Put some teeth into the penalties. Discourage offshoring of production through favorable tax structure. In other words, reverse course. Let truly free markets work and have appropriate government oversight and regulation.

 

[ManOnFire]

If they raise taxes on “passive” income that’s unfortunate but if they raise taxes on active income, they ignore one word: Motivation. If people aren’t motivated to work harder for less money, in this logistical nightmare era of red tape and more paperwork, the economy will suffer with demotivated taxpayers whose result will be less tax revenues (the opposite of what we need).

 

[franklinstower]

Just curious…how many people do you employ?

That is a loaded question

I run a small non profit educational center-- I am the only employee. The way I work the fair wages idea is on the other end, I have a sliding scale for the services we provide. People of low income pay less, or even nothing, and people who make middle class wages and up pay more.

I willingly make less than I could, a lot less, so that everyone can afford the services we provide. If the non profit happens to increase in size and require other employees then we will most certainly provide a fair living wage.

I think what the Pope is saying can be done–* I am not saying the government should necessarily be the ones regulating it. * Listening to christian radio I was made aware of a Christian man who had a gift for business. He was just really good at it. His business made a few million dollars a year and he gave every cent of it to charity after his salary. The salary he chose for himself was 70000 a year…

My point is not to argue for a certain way of going about this. This whole topic quickly evolves into a Democrat vs Republican argument and it shouldn’t-- my point is that it can be done and it should be done*** if our primary concern is God, heaven, and the well-being of humanity. First we have to make sure our wills*** are actually in line with the teachings of Christ-- then we can figure out a myriad of ways of going about it.

 

[ManOnFire]

If society is going to produce jobs that need people to work them then those jobs ought to provide basic dignity for those people, a small simple home, health care, and the ability to educate their children is not so much to ask… Lets not forget that there are people called by God to live simply, there are people with learning disabilities who cant get college degrees or work intellectually demanding jobs, and there are people of low intelligence who also cannot. We should not let them slip through the cracks.

Everyone should run their own small business before having an opinion. See the flip side of reality. People shop at Wal-Mart for the lowest prices and employers also shop for low priced employees. That’s equality. If people would stop shopping for cheap and start buying the highest priced items, we’d have inflation and wages would then increase. Capitalism has done more for our poor and disabled than their counterparts in socialist nations. The difference is dramatic.

 

[franklinstower]

If they raise taxes on “passive” income that’s unfortunate but if they raise taxes on active income, they ignore one word: Motivation. If people aren’t motivated to work harder for less money, in this logistical nightmare era of red tape and more paperwork, the economy will suffer with demotivated taxpayers whose result will be less tax revenues (the opposite of what we need).

I cant speak for non Christians but for us the motivation in our careers cannot first be about money. Our first motivation has to be about pleasing God and doing Gods will. Ideally the career we have gone into was motivated by that in the first place. There is plenty of motivational energy provided by the Holy Spirit for doing good- limitless in fact if we are close to God. If our motivation in life requires more wages then our motivation is serving a false god.

 

[ManOnFire]

I cant speak for non Christians but for us the motivation in our careers cannot first be about money. Our first motivation has to be about pleasing God and doing Gods will. Ideally the career we have gone into was motivated by that in the first place. There is plenty of motivational energy provided by the Holy Spirit for doing good- limitless in fact if we are close to God. If our motivation in life requires more wages then our motivation is serving a false god.

Where do you draw the line? I could take your position to say that our only real needs in life are very basic food, very basic clothing, and very basic shelter. Even healthcare is an artificial extension of human life when you really think about it. All else is unnecessary. You’ll have masses of lazy people who don’t generate tax revenues to pay for other social programs if you convince the masses to live that way because it’s fairly easy to achieve very basic food, clothing, and shelter. You need to consider the evaporation of tax revenues into that equation.

 

[franklinstower]

Everyone should run their own small business before having an opinion. See the flip side of reality. People shop at Wal-Mart for the lowest prices and employers also shop for low priced employees. That’s equality. If people would stop shopping for cheap and start buying the highest priced items, we’d have inflation and wages would then increase. Capitalism has done more for our poor and disabled than their counterparts in socialist nations. The difference is dramatic.

You don’t have to be involved in something to have an opinion about it— *but I really do see your point. * On the other hand I know lots of small business owners-- most of my friends in fact are small business owners. Most of them feel the way I do about it and think the way I do about it because their goal in life is to have enough so they can pursue a deep relationship with God – they are not looking to have more than enough. Once you have enough then it is incumbent on you as a Christian to think about others- probably starting with your employees.

This has nothing to do with dems vs republicans-- this has to do with our free agency in the service of God and humanity. There are lots of creative and diverse ways in which that commitment could manifest. I can see why people resent having others force certain solutions on them politically. On the other hand if all Christians were really doing all they could-- there would not be the “perceived” need on the left to do so.

I think the greatest block to a real solution for all of this is twofold.

1- People aren’t close enough to God to be filled with Gods power in real ways that motivate them deeply to *want *the best for everyone. We are just so lukewarm that it seems like a burden instead of a gift, and a calling, and an adventure…

2- People are so divided that they get caught up arguing against someone else s idea of how to solve the issue and never really just sincerely asking themselves and God “what can I do personally, and then go out and do it.” This is intrinsically tied to #1.

 

[franklinstower]

Where do you draw the line? I could take your position to say that our only real needs in life are very basic food, very basic clothing, and very basic shelter. Even healthcare is an artificial extension of human life when you really think about it. All else is unnecessary. You’ll have masses of lazy people who don’t generate tax revenues to pay for other social programs if you convince the masses to live that way because it’s fairly easy to achieve very basic food, clothing, and shelter. You need to consider the evaporation of tax revenues into that equation.

I think here we can find a point of true agreement. The line cannot be drawn up in public policy-- it must be directed by God in individuals. We will always have poverty not because there is no solution but because we are all so far from God that we cant hear what God is calling us into.

I can only say this. No ones life and choices- including my own- can survive sincere prayer to God on the direction we should take in there areas.

I think this is what the Pope is really getting at.

 

[anthony022071]

How can anyone think he seeks socialism, since he is really no different than any of our previous popes.

Some of the things he says and favors are indeed different from what most of the popes have said and called for - the call for heavy government regulation of the economy and industries, for government redistribution, for world governance, the tendency to conflate capitalism in general with greed and economic inequality with injustice.

It was only in the 1950’s and 60’s, with Pope John the 23rd, that popes and many bishops became favorably disposed toward the socialist welfare state, which was implemented in European countries after the second world war. But even as they favored that model of government, they also popes expressed criticisms of socialism, apparently without realizing that the bad characteristics of socialism that they criticized were characteristics of the European “democratic socialism” model of government that they favored.

Pope Benedict :

“Democratic socialism managed to fit within the two existing models as a welcome counterweight to the radical liberal positions, which it developed and corrected. It also managed to appeal to various denominations. In England it became the political party of the Catholics, who had never felt at home among either the Protestant conservatives or the liberals. In Wilhelmine Germany, too, Catholic groups felt closer to democratic socialism than to the rigidly Prussian and Protestant conservative forces. In many respects, democratic socialism was and is close to Catholic social doctrine and has in any case made a remarkable contribution to the formation of a social consciousness.”

firstthings.com/article/2006/01/europe-and-its-discontents

JOHN XXIII (1958-1963)

“Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production; it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.” (Encyclical Mater et Magistra, May 15, 1961, n. 34)

PAUL VI

“Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated.” (Apostolic Letter Octogesima Adveniens, May 14, 1971, n. 31)

JOHN PAUL II

“Continuing our reflections, … we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property.” (Ibid, n. 13)

Benedict XVI

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person − every person − needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) − a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)

tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/what-the-popes-have-to-say-about-socialism.html

 

[JimG]

I cant speak for non Christians but for us the motivation in our careers cannot first be about money. Our first motivation has to be about pleasing God and doing Gods will. Ideally the career we have gone into was motivated by that in the first place. There is plenty of motivational energy provided by the Holy Spirit for doing good- limitless in fact if we are close to God. If our motivation in life requires more wages then our motivation is serving a false god.

The type of society you envision has some merit. I don’t think it would be workable though in a nation of 320 million people, most of whom do not share your vision.

But even if they did, let’s suppose everyone operated without concern for accumulating wealth, only wishing to live at a minimal lifestyle. The foreseeable effects would be a diminution in gross domestic product, resulting in decreased employment, and perhaps more poverty, perhaps a national or global depression. Also, if no one accumulates wealth to take care of themselves in old age, the expense will fall to their family or their government. But the government in such a society might not have the resources to help.

I’m just thinking on paper here. Surely one would want a family to earn enough to support their children, perhaps to pay for their schooling, to pay for medical care, and other things. And to save enough to take care of future unexpected emergencies or hard times.

Yes, I realize that Jesus told the rich young man to sell all that he had, give the money to the poor, and then come follow him. That would give a one time boost for the poor. But if everyone did it, would everyone then be poor?

 

[Dwyer]

People believe that the Pontiff will have a negative message to the US congress concerning business. I guess he has been quoted as saying the wealth of some are increasing “exponentially”. Who is he talking about? I don’t know of any wealthy persons whose wealth is increasing like that. Going long and short in derivatives or futures isn’t going to cause that kind of wealth growth. Who are they? They would I would think have a duty to help take care of the poor. Carnegie was very helpful to the community. There are many philanthropists out there.

Now keeping and putting people of the streets is something the government does. And trying to keep them from work like criminals with a minimal threat sometimes are discriminated against. There’s much to correct. I’m not sure of the problem with wealthy people though.

I can only guess who the Pope is specifically referring to but perhaps maybe this businessman is one of them?

Do you have a link about the Pope’s statement that wealth of some are increasing “exponentially”?

Steven A. Cohen (born June 11, 1956) is an American hedge fund manager. He is the founder of SAC Capital Advisors, a Stamford, Connecticut-based hedge fund focusing primarily on equity market strategies.

He has an estimated net worth of $11.1 billion as of May 2014, ranked by Forbes as the 106th richest man in the world.[1][2] Cohen is 35th overall in the U.S.[3] In November 2012, he began to be implicated in a large criminal insider trading scandal. In July 2013, SAC was charged by the Securities and Exchange Commission with failing to prevent insider trading.[4][5] In November 2013, SAC Capital agreed to plead guilty, stop managing funds for outsiders, and pay a $1.2 billion fine.[6]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_A._Cohen

 

[franklinstower]

The type of society you envision has some merit. I don’t think it would be workable though in a nation of 320 million people, most of whom do not share your vision.

But even if they did, let’s suppose everyone operated without concern for accumulating wealth, only wishing to live at a minimal lifestyle. The foreseeable effects would be a diminution in gross domestic product, resulting in decreased employment, and perhaps more poverty, perhaps a national or global depression. Also, if no one accumulates wealth to take care of themselves in old age, the expense will fall to their family or their government. But the government in such a society might not have the resources to help.

I’m just thinking on paper here. Surely one would want a family to earn enough to support their children, perhaps to pay for their schooling, to pay for medical care, and other things. And to save enough to take care of future unexpected emergencies or hard times.

Yes, I realize that Jesus told the rich young man to sell all that he had, give the money to the poor, and then come follow him. That would give a one time boost for the poor. But if everyone did it, would everyone then be poor?

You are not hearing what I am saying. Did you read my other posts in this thread about the man who is really good at business and who gives most of his earnings away? I am not suggesting people do what I am doing. I am doing what I am dong because God led me here- same with the business man. I am saying that a real and genuine commitment to ending poverty and inequality has to be present in our wills– we have to want it more than other things. We have to value the benefit of all human beings over our own welfare and we have to pray sincerely for God to show us the way, to bring us close to Him and His will so we can genuinely want that and work towards it with joy.

It is up to God to bring this about in us-- and it can be done-- but only if we are willing. Once this willingness is found it is like waking up from a bad dream and then you get to enter into an adventure where you really do work for God- not money and not social status- but for God. Aside from all of the worldly benefits that come from this for everyone-- we get to begin to participate in heaven and Gods power here and now living through us.

There is room in Gods plan for very seemingly different lifestyles-- ***but we have to make darn sure we are doing Gods will and not our own. ***If we all do this-- all Christians- this country would be very different no matter how you slice it.

We have to trust God to lead us into a better way and we have to have the courage to follow it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not one single phrase in this whole post is objective. There are very few ceo’s that can not justify their pay rate. As to there being too many large companies that monopolize and industry, well there isnt any.

The majority of the very highly paid are only at that pinnacle for a short time. They’re like professional athletes in that way. High pay for awhile, difficult not to spend a lot of it because of the milieu they’re in, then down to ordinary wages or nothing at all. If they exerted effort to save it, they’re in good shape. If not, they’re not.

One should never idealize Europe which is more socialized that the U.S. They don’t have children, and one really has to consider the fact that children are less and less “affordable” there all the time. If people can’t raise families because of the system under which they live, that system is profoundly flawed.