Pope apologizes for sack of Constantinople

[Irish_Melkite]

In assessing the motivation for a change, one consideration on the part of the receiving ordinary is often the extent to which he perceives that the requestor truly understands and is drawn to the Church for reasons related to his/her theological development and spiritual well-being. Some even require a minimal period of involvement - a year to as much as three years - in a parish of their Church before they will grant the formal request (I don’t know if such a requirement is being presently enforced by either of the two Maronite eparchies in the US).

BTW, if you seek a Change for the express purpose of pursuing the Mystery of Holy Orders, the approval to grant such Change is ordinarily reserved to the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Church. This is intended to assure that such is not done merely to bypass the Latin Church’s discipline against married clergy.

(continued)

 

[Irish_Melkite]

What most concerns me is that your own words suggest that you have not taken the time to gain such understanding of the Church to which you profess to be spiritually drawn.

You speak of “the Maronite Rite of the Syriac Catholic Church” and “the Syriac Church (Maronite Catholics)”. The Maronite Rite is the rite of the Maronite Catholic Church, a Church sui iuris. The Syriac Catholic Church (a/k/a Syrian Catholic Church) is an entirely separate Church sui iuris. They have in common that both originated in the West Syrian Tradition of the Antiochene Rite; however, the Maronite Rite developed in sufficient geographic isolation in the Lebanese mountains that it ultimately came to be deemed a rite unto itself.

Each of the two is a Patriarchal Church and the Patriarchs of each are styled Patriarch of Antioch and All the East. Each have canonical jurisidictions in the US: the Eparchies of Saint Maron in Brooklyn and Our Lady of Lebanon in Los Angeles of the Maronites; the Eparchy of Our Lady of Deliverance in Newark of the Syriacs in the United States and Canada. The Maronites have no Orthodox counterpart; the Syrian Orthodox are the counterpart to the Syriac Catholics.

You can see the Maronite Liturgy at:

The Service of the Mysteries According to the Antiochene Maronite Rite

and that of my Syriac brothers and sisters at:

The Divine Liturgy According to the Syriac Rite of Antioch

You can learn something of the two Churches at:

CNEWA: Maronite Catholic Church

and

CNEWA: Syrian Catholic Church

I post none of this to embarass you, but to bring you to a realization of the Eastern Catholic Churches that is often lacking among our Latin sisters and brothers; that we appreciate interest in us and in our liturgical traditions, but we want to and must be understood and appreciated for ourselves, not as an antidote to what disaffected Latins perceive as wrong in their own Church. The Novus Ordo Mass is neither less authentic nor holy than the Tridentine Mass; each, as a service of worship directed to God, has its own intrinsic holiness when served faithfully and reverently. To the extent that abuses exist within either, they must needs be addressed; but the form is only that - an external; ultimately, worship comes from within oneself, one’s heart and soul.

Many years,

Neil

 

[dcmac]

Irish Melkite,
I appreciate your concern and the lessons you put forth on the Oriental Catholics. However, as I have discerned my vocation for some time and as a result I have spent a large amount of time learning of the Orientals, I am not merely transferring for fly-by-night reasons!!!

I also appreciate your concern over my vocation and desire of a canonical switch. If I were limited, as you most certainly are, in the information surrounding any person I meet on an MB I would be just as concerned…if I did not exercise prudence. However, as a person who has had to spend much time in research and study for my university studies I have developed a great love for research and study. To which I have devoted a very large amount of time (3 + years) to this switch.

I will point out that at first glance your post reads arrogant and definitely ill informed. However, as you do not know one thing about me in a concrete, real manner and only in a limited, cyber manner I will let that go. I have never said, nor implied, that I am leaving the Roman Church for the Syriac Church in order to escape NOMs and find a ‘haven’. That, to be honest, is a gross prejudicial comment and, frankly, I do take offense to that one. It shows a serious lack of understanding of my posts and especially of me.

Even though it is off topic, I will post some basic facts about my life for you so that you will have a more learned, better understanding of my situation. It is my hope that in doing so you will see it is not wise to prejudge and find it within yourself to not jump to conclusions regarding me, nor anyone for that matter, on this MB, or in life, in the future.

Born and raised Catholic in an Irish Catholic family with a heritage of American West pioneering and homesteading along with a strong military and policing tradition.

I was an excellent student and athlete at private parochial school.

Left the Church in a public high school (’86 – ‘90) and became a moral relativist, drug & alcohol abuser, thief, graffiti artist, gang member & gross fornicator, which led to the conception and abortion of my only child.

Spent the next year battling my demons, and myself which led me to conclude that there was a God and that I had to seek Him or life was simply not worth living anymore.

Spent the next two years in three different churches: an evangelical Presbyterian Church, a Missouri-Synod Lutheran Church, and a High Church Anglican church.

(continued)

 

[dcmac]

Came back to the Catholic Church on August 15, 1993 at the World Youth Day in Denver, Colorado (only went to please my mom and get her off my back…funny how mom’s know things…).

Enrolled in a community college (2 year) that year and was a double major obtaining a double associates. Thought I might have a priestly vocation that year and that was also the first year I attended a Ukrainian-Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy. Became great friends with the deacon there who was gracious enough to meet with me for coffee every two weeks to help me in my understanding of the Oriental Catholics of his Church.

Went on to a four year institution and earned my undergraduate degree. At this point I actively engaged my priestly vocation discernment. Visited a number of religious orders and enrolled in the Insight Program at the4 St. John Vianney Seminary here in Denver (secular priest).

Left that discernment at the direction of my priest confessor who doubled as my spiritual advisor because he advised me I was not forward thinking enough for the priesthood…also advised me that last meeting to not come up for communion anymore until I could refrain from genuflecting or bowing to the Sacred Host. That priest has now left the religious Order he was in and that religious Order has now left my parish all together bringing in the archdiocesan priest whom I dearly love.

Went on to grad school and without graduating applied and transferred into the PsyD program (new set up where you bypass a masters). Just got that this year. However three years ago I began to attend on occasion the Maronite Divine Liturgy at the St. Rafka Mission here in Denver. Fell in love right away with everything, but especially the use of Aramaic, the Lord’s language, as well as the English and Arabic. Found in these people (mostly Lebanese) a caring, loving, faithful, ancient people who prayed the beads – just like me and not like others in the oriental Churches, also found a common cultural link as I am of Irish ancestry and these folks loved the Irish who were the bulk of the UN peace keeping forces and the ones least likely to flee from the protection of the Lebanese Catholics when attacked by the Mohammedan Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians and Palestinians. During this time I developed a great devotion to St. Rafka and St. Maron (the founder of the Maronites). Was astonished (though I can’t say why) when I learned they are the ONLY Oriental Catholics who have NEVER been separated from the Chair of Peter.

(continued)

 

[dcmac]

Current priest-confessor and spiritual director is a Franciscan. He had advised me to search out either a traditionalist Roman Church society, order, or confraternity. Or, to canonically switch to the Maronites precisely because of my preference for and devotion to the Maronites and the Maronite traditions. He has also been in correspondence with, as have I, representatives of the Maronites (the mission’s chaplain just left for Minnesota…so sad). The chaplain, Fr. Shane was a bi-ritual priest who was not only enthusiastic about my vocation, but about my ability to eventually become a Maronite priest (requiring much more education…especially in the languages department). Both he and Fr. Joseph advised me to take the summer to do this. I did. However, I have already made my mind up and am moving to the Maronites…period.

So, I am an educated person who does know how to make use of his time and abilities to research something before I jump into it. This is not some simple fly-by-night decision! I have been discerning my vocation off and on for about eight years or more and for switching to the Orient since I first attended a Maronite Divine Liturgy 3 plus years ago. During this time I did all the research and have spoken to three Maronite priest, two Roman priests (not including the one who led me astray before and now has left the RCC).

I have never said that my reason for leaving Rome was over any sadness, anger over the abuses within Roman Church. Those things undoubtedly bother the heck out of me, as they should every Catholic of every stripe! However, my sadness, anger over these things has not led me to St. Maron. Rather, the Holy Ghost through St. Maron and St. Rafka has led me to the Maronites.

Just a gentle word of advice here…before you try to figure out someone by their posts you should first ask some basic, direct questions. Do not assume anything…you know what happens when you assume…

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite priest,
Donnchadh

 

[dcmac]

FYI Irish Melkite:

A Rite represents an ecclesiastical, or church, tradition about how the sacraments are to be celebrated. Each of the sacraments has at its core an essential nature which must be satisfied for the sacrament to be confected or realized. This essence - of matter, form and intention - derives from the divinely revealed nature of the particular sacrament. It cannot be changed by the Church. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, as interpreted by the Magisterium, tells us what is essential in each of the sacraments (2 Thes. 2:15).

When the apostles brought the Gospel to the major cultural centers of their day the essential elements of religious practice were inculturated into those cultures. This means that the essential elements were clothed in the symbols and trappings of the particular people, so that the rituals conveyed the desired spiritual meaning to that culture. In this way the Church becomes all things to all men that some might be saved (1 Cor. 9:22).

There are three major groupings of Rites based on this initial transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later on the Byzantine derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today.

CHURCHES
A Church is an assembly of the faithful, hierarchically ordered, both in the entire world - the Catholic Church, or in a certain territory - a particular Church. To be a sacrament (a sign) of the Mystical Body of Christ in the world, a Church must have both a head and members (Col. 1:18). The sacramental sign of Christ the Head is the sacred hierarchy - the bishops, priests and deacons (Eph. 2:19-22). More specifically, it is the local bishop, with his priests and deacons gathered around and assisting him in his office of teaching, sanctifying and governing (Mt. 28:19-20; Titus 1:4-9). The sacramental sign of the Mystical Body is the Christian faithful. Thus the Church of Christ is fully present sacramentally (by way of a sign) wherever there is a sign of Christ the Head, a bishop and those who assist him, and a sign of Christ’s Body, Christian faithful. Each diocese is therefore a particular Church.

(continued)

 

[dcmac]

The Church of Christ is also present sacramentally in ritual Churches that represent an ecclesiastical tradition of celebrating the sacraments. They are generally organized under a Patriarch, who together with the bishops and other clergy of that ritual Church represent Christ the Head to the people of that tradition. In some cases a Rite is completely coincident with a Church. For example, the Maronite Church with its Patriarch has a Rite not found in any other Church. In other cases, such as the Byzantine Rite, several Churches use the same or a very similar liturgical Rite. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church uses the Byzantine Rite, but this Rite is also found in other Catholic Churches, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in union with Rome.

Finally, the Church of Christ is sacramentally present in the Universal or Catholic Church spread over the entire world. It is identified by the sign of Christ our Rock, the Bishop of Rome, Successor of St. Peter (Mt. 16:18). To be Catholic particular Churches and ritual Churches must be in communion with this Head, just as the other apostles, and the Churches they founded, were in communion with Peter (Gal. 1:18). Through this communion with Peter and his successors the Church becomes a universal sacrament of salvation in all times and places, even to the end of the age (Mt. 28:20).

A****NTIOCHIAN
The Church of Antioch in Syria (on the Mediterranean coast) is considered an apostolic see by virtue of having been founded by St. Peter. It was one of the ancient centers of the Church, as the New Testament attests, and is the source of a family of similar Rites using the ancient Syriac language (the Semitic dialect used in Jesus’ time and better known as Aramaic). Its Liturgy is attributed to St. James and the Church of Jerusalem.

1. WEST SYRIAN

1. Maronite - Never separated from Rome. Maronite Patriarch of Antioch. The liturgical language is Aramaic. The 3 million Maronites are found in Lebanon (origin), Cyprus, Egypt, Syria, Israel, Canada, US, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Australia.
2. Syriac - Syrian Catholics who returned to Rome in 1781 from the monophysite heresy. Syriac Patriarch of Antioch. The 110,000 Syrian Catholics are found in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Canada and the US.
3. Malankarese - Catholics from the South of India evangelized by St. Thomas, uses the West Syriac liturgy. Reunited with Rome in 1930. Liturgical languages today are West Syriac and Malayalam. The 350,000 Malankarese Catholics are found in India and North America.

(continued)

 

[dcmac]

1. EAST SYRIAN

1. Chaldean - Babylonian Catholics returned to Rome in 1692 from the Nestorian heresy. Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans. Liturgical languages are Syriac and Arabic. The 310,000 Chaldean Catholics are found in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey and the US.
2. Syro-Malabarese - Catholics from Southern India using the East Syriac liturgy. Returned to Rome in the 16th century from the Nestorian heresy. Liturgical languages are Syriac and Malayalam. Over 3 million Syro-Malabarese Catholics can be found in the state of Kerela, in SW India.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL​

So, the Maronites are not the “Maronite Catholic Church” - “sui iuris”. They are a rite within the West-Syriac branch of the Antiochan Church. I was undoubtedly being lazy, and therefore incorrect, in calling it the Syriac Catholic Church, however I was not outright wrong by calling it the “Maronite Catholic Church” - “sui iuris”, as you did.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite Catholic priest,
Dr Donnchadh mag Eochadha, PsyD

 

[Irish_Melkite]

dcmac:

So, the Maronites are not the “Maronite Catholic Church” - “sui iuris”. They are a rite within the West-Syriac branch of the Antiochan Church. I was undoubtedly being lazy, and therefore incorrect, in calling it the Syriac Catholic Church, however I was not outright wrong by calling it the “Maronite Catholic Church” - "sui iuris", as you did.

Donnchadh,

Colin Donovan’s piece notwithstanding …

SUI IURIS

: From the Latin, meaning “of its own right”; also “self-governing,” or “particular,” as in Particular Church. Applied to a Catholic Church structural context, it means a group of Catholics of one of the six liturgical *Traditions of the Catholic Communion of Churches that has its own hierarchy … in communion with the Vatican. *For example, the Maronite Church is a sui iuris Church …

The above is from a “Glossary of Maronite Liturgical Terms” in Appendix IV of Captivated by Your Teachings: a Resource Book for Adult Maronite Catholics, by Fr. Anthony J. Salim, a Maronite priest.

There is not an “Antiochan (sic) Church” per se. There is an Antiochene Rite and, yes, the Maronite Rite originated within the West Syrian Tradition of the Antiochene Rite. However, developing, as it did, in isolation in the mountains of Lebanon, it evolved to the point where it is now deemed a Rite onto itself. In the case of the Maronites, as is also true of the Armenians, the Rite and Church are synonymous in name.

Note, from the same piece, your prior post, that Colin states:

In some cases a Rite is completely coincident with a Church. For example, the Maronite Church with its Patriarch has a Rite not found in any other Church

And, while it is true that the Maronites utilize a Syriac dialect in their liturgical rituals, as well as Aramaic and some Arabic, the Maronite and Syriac Catholic Churches sui iuris are two separate and distinct Patriarchal Churches sui iuris. His Beatitude, Mar Ignace Pierre VIII (Gregoire) Abdel-Ahad, Patriarch of Antioch and All The East of the Syriac (Syrian) Catholics would likely be most distressed to find that His Beatitude Mar Nasrallah Boutros Cardinal Sfeir, Patriarch of Antioch and All The East of the Maronites, had subsumed his Church into that of the Maronites.

(continued)

 

[Irish_Melkite]

From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today.

There are NOT 20 liturgical Rites. The statement confuses the concepts of Rite and Church, which were clarified in Vatican II. The statement reflects a lazy cut and paste from older reference material, probably the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, since (as memory serves me) there is similar language used therein. There are 23 Churches sui iuris - 1 Western (the Latin Church) and 22 Eastern; the 23 Churches use, among them, 6 Rites.

Was astonished (though I can’t say why) when I learned they are the ONLY Oriental Catholics who have NEVER been separated from the Chair of Peter.

You make a common error here. In actuality, there are 2 Eastern Churches which have never been separated from Rome. The other is the Italo-Grieco-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris. The Church is of the category of Eastern Churches designated as Episcopal Churches sui iuris and has three canonical jurisdictions:

Eparchy of Lungro degli Italo-Albanesi [of the Italo-Albanians] in Calabria [Italy]

Eparchy of Piana [Sicily] degli Albanisi [of the Albanians]

Exarchic Abbey and Territorial Monastery sui iuris of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata of the Byzantine Italo-Greek Catholics

Although it is counted as a single Church sui iuris, each of the 3 jurisdictions is technically a Church sui iuris unto itself, as there is no formal canonical relationship between/among the 3 and no one of the 3 hierarchs has been singularly designated as the presiding hierarch of the Church.

Finally, if I have misinterpreted your motivation for desiring a Change of Canonical Enrollment to the the Church of my Maronite sisters and brothers, I apologize. I haven’t the time right now to go back and read your prior posts on other threads to see what led me to be concerned, so I accept you at your word.

I do, however, suggest that you study the concepts of Rite and Church from sources other than EWTN. The CNEWA site that I linked in my prior posts is an excellent starting point; others include Byzcath.org, which is not limited to Byzantine Churches, its name notwithstanding.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Southernrich]

As a less serious aside, I’d encourage Latin Catholics to appreciate the Maronite Rite by attending Mass at a Maronite church if you can get to a city that has one.

When I’m visiting in New York City, I make it a point to attend Maronite Rite Mass at least once per visit.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

dcmac:

Found in these people (mostly Lebanese) a caring, loving, faithful, ancient people who prayed the beads – just like me and not like others in the oriental Churches

Donnchadh,

I’m curious what the highlighted phrase I’ve quoted above means.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Augustine27]

well as Far as History Goes The Sack of Constantinople was the result of the Byzantines selling out the Crusaders during the previous Crusades and the French who did it were fed up with as they Greeks not holding to thier end of the Bargin Pope Innocent was appaled and Suprised and just called it the will of God so should he apologize maybe but yes it is an attempt to reconcil with the Eastern Churches which is based more on Nationalistic pride more then Theology just some thoughts

Mike

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Thank you for your participation in this discussion.