Pope apologizes for sack of Constantinople

[Trad_Catholic]

Southernrich:

I hear you, EENS. “I will not serve!” It’s been said before.

Thomas’s “sound theology” is his opinion as he doesn’t form part of the Magisterium.

You are a dissenter, EENS and possibly a borderline schismatic. “Vatican II was wrong about this, this Pope was wrong about this, that Pope was wrong about that. I am their Judge.” A few more steps and it might be that you’ve constructively separated yourself from Christ’s Church.

You take shots at someone when he cannot even respond because he is suspended…that doesn’t add any points to you’re argument.

As far as the Pope being wrong, who here would say that he has never said anything that is wrong? I certainly will not. And that doesn’t mean EENS is their judge. From what I can see, he merely quoted information from Councils and other Popes that state the opposite of what the Pope says. If that is what gets you suspended, I’m out of here!

 

[yochumjy]

Trad_Catholic:

The Jewish religion does not have infallible Popes that have throughout the ages condemned error.

Yes, true, but they did have the old testament which contained all their rules to live by. My point, was, of course, that the arguement “We always did it before and no one argued” is flawed. You could have used that arguement to ignore Christ’s teaching against that which was “Law” given by a very holy man. Correct? Oh, and nowhere has it been shown on the arguement in question “torture” that a pope, has explicitely taught anything about torture. So, I don’t believe it applies in this case.

I agree, though, that we, as Catholics have a Great store of knowledge that we should use in a knowledgable fashion, not completely blind faith. (except blind faith in Jesus, of course)

John

 

[Southernrich]

Trad_Catholic:

You take shots at someone when he cannot even respond because he is suspended…that doesn’t add any points to you’re argument.

As far as the Pope being wrong, who here would say that he has never said anything that is wrong? I certainly will not. And that doesn’t mean EENS is their judge. From what I can see, he merely quoted information from Councils and other Popes that state the opposite of what the Pope says. If that is what gets you suspended, I’m out of here!

I was unaware that he was suspended. I had no intention of kicking him when he was down.

EENS didn’t say that Popes may have said something that was “wrong.” We’re talking about error, theological error, and EENS has not criticized one Pope, but several on the subject of salvation outside the Church.

And he didn’t merely quote information that “might” be read to mean opposite to the Church’s teaching. He stated directly that his interpretation of that information was correct and that of the Popes, wrong.

His use of such “proof-texting” is as invalid in theology as in apologetics.

I am sorry that he was suspended, but we must stand by the Church and the Pope and not by our own interpretations.

 

[yochumjy]

Trad_Catholic:

You take shots at someone when he cannot even respond because he is suspended…that doesn’t add any points to you’re argument.

As far as the Pope being wrong, who here would say that he has never said anything that is wrong? I certainly will not. And that doesn’t mean EENS is their judge. From what I can see, he merely quoted information from Councils and other Popes that state the opposite of what the Pope says. If that is what gets you suspended, I’m out of here!

Apparently, the suspension JUST occurred, so the accusation of taking pot shots is without merit, unless you know for a fact that Southernrich knew EENS was suspended at the time of the post. And if you read what EENS has been writing, then you could indeed surmise that he/she (I just don’t know which for sure) was judging.

John

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

EENS:

…Torture is not intrinsically wrong, just as slavery is not intrinsically wrong…

???

I’m sorry but I need to completely disagree with you on this.

 

[Hesychios]

Mandi:

A saint might be able to error, lets say have a difference of opinion but he absolutely is sinless. To keep placing these extraordinairy examples of human beings on some common level with the average man is ridiculous. It is no wonder “The Church” has such a hard time finding one in todays world. Because everybody is so ready to find fault were there is none instead of trying to live up to their example.

Excuse me?

Who is finding fault with whom?

No one has lived a sinless life except Christ Jesus and Mary Immaculate, that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

It is not a sin to make a mistake, or even write something not completely understood as orthodox later, many great saints have done so.

Also, I did not impugn any particular sin upon Saint Thomas, if I gave you that impression I am sorry. The individual I was responding to had idolized Saint Thomas far and away above the rest of the church, I had hoped to bring some balance to the discussion. By mentioning that he was not perfect I was merely stating a fact. You should be able to discern that from what I wrote, and please don’t imply that I was trying to tear down the church, I would rather be dead.

In Christ Always,
Michael

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

To get back on topic…

I agree whole-heartedly with the apology. It was a sad time when the 4th crusade went awry. Christians fighting Christians: reconciliation with the East is necessary in order to move forward.

You could make the argument that the Eastern Church still hasn’t recovered from that blow. All the blame is not on Rome however. There was fault on both sides. Rome seems to be acknowledging its faults. I’m hoping that the East will follow suit someday.

 

[Southernrich]

Stylteralmaldo:

All the blame is not on Rome however. There was fault on both sides. Rome seems to be acknowledging its faults. I’m hoping that the East will follow suit someday.

That’s the sad thing. I perceive that the refusal of the East to be reconciled has more than a little pride connected with it, especially when one sees the manner in which the Pope’s overtures have been rebuffed by some.

 

[Hesychios]

Southernrich:

That’s the sad thing. I perceive that the refusal of the East to be reconciled has more than a little pride connected with it, especially when one sees the manner in which the Pope’s overtures have been rebuffed by some.

I wish it were that simple, I am sure pride is not the problem!

Michael

 

[Southernrich]

Southernrich:

EENS didn’t say that Popes may have said something that was “wrong.” We’re talking about error, theological error

Something occurred to me that was worth my quoting myself.

Popes can certainly be wrong about matters not related to the faith. Barely 150 years ago, Pope Gregory XVI railed (no pun intended) against railroads and banned them in his territory of authority. He said that railways were an invention of modernity and could corrupt Catholics by allowing them to travel freely from their villages to the cities, which offered every sinful temptation.

He erred in condemning the tool for the sins of the tool’s users, and this is a prime example of where a Pope can err. It was not a matter of theology.

 

[Emmy]

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/30/wpope30.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/30/ixworld.html

I’m somewhat uncomfortable with this. I love JPII, though, so I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Obviously this is the result of a great love for both Church and humanity. However, I wonder–how much good will this really do? In my experience, the second you offer your “enemies” a hand, they bite off your arm.

Is this just the naivete of a kindly old man? Or do you think there’s a larger issue here?

I think it is wonderful that our Pope did this, a lot of bad things
happened then, and I believe it is always good to appologize for things that were wrongly done. So I whole heartedly embrace this.
I also don´t think this was naive to do this.

Second I don´t see the Greek Orthodox church as an enemy.
They are Christians and we are certainly not enemies with other Christians.

Emmy

 

[Southernrich]

Emmy:

Second I don´t see the Greek Orthodox church as an enemy.
They are Christians and we are certainly not enemies with other Christians.

Emmy

I agree, and even more than just being fellow Christians, the Church considers them fully a Church, not just Christian communities (our Protestant friends).

 

[Servant1]

EENS:

If I am wrong, St. Thomas Aquinas is wrong. Reason is wrong. The Church is wrong!

Just EXACTLY when was it, and by whom, that Thomas Aquinas was declared to be without fault in any and all of his teachings? That is not part of being declared a Doctor of the Church. Infallibility never was part of the attributes of Thomas. All the arguments about the Pope’s recent apology aside, you build your house on sand if you think hinging all your beliefs and teachings on Thomas Aquinas is sufficient. You elevate him to a position he would never have claimed for himself, nor has the Church ever given him such a position.

Sainthood is not equivalent to perfection or infallibility, nor is being a Doctor of the Church.

 

[SCTA-1]

Has anyone ever heard of the massacre of Catholic Latins by the Orthodox in 1182? Thousands were killed and Cardinal John,the Pope’s representative,was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog.Other atrocities abounded by the Orthodox.Any apologies?

 

[montanaman]

Man, oh man, I love you guys. (Even EENS). I didn’t expect such a response. This has been an incredibly interesting thread and I thank all you sharp folks for it.

 

[maggiec]

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/30/wpope30.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/30/ixworld.html

I’m somewhat uncomfortable with this. I love JPII, though, so I’m
Is this just the naivete of a kindly old man? Or do you think there’s a larger issue here?

Among other things Jesus said if someone asks you to go one mile, go two. And much more. I think this message would apply here. I believe if we truly try to live His words we won’t think that what our Holy Father did was inappropriate.
Gods peace be with you,
maggiec

 

[Shan]

Chris Burgwald:

Yes, but by your standards, if he didn’t say it in an ex cathedra statement, then he could be wrong.

Now, for my part, I think you’re misunderstanding what he actually said, but that’s another story.

Jesus didn’t condemn abortion, either (as pro-aborts are quick to say), but that doesn’t mean that it’s not intrinsically wrong, does it?

Jesus didn’t condemn slavery, but slavery in his time was very different. People sold themselves into slavery to pay off debt. And remember the Jubilee; every seven years they were set free. Look it up!

Shan

 

[Shan]

hlgomez:

Tom,

You must have the mind of Christ. Don’t prejudge the Pope, he is the head of the Church. There’s nothing wrong in asking for forgiveness for those people who sack Constatinolple. For how can we be united if there’s still hatred and resentment in our hearts? Remember Jesus said: “Go reconcile first with your brothers and then come back to the altar and offer your gifts.” The path to unity of all Christians is not just the desire of the Pope–it is the desire of the Lord Himself! "ut unum sint!

God bless,

Pio

Tom,

Excellent points. God will not ask us, "Did they accept your apology and convert? He’s gonna ask us, “Did you tell them?”
But, TRUTH must be proclaimed- whether accepted or rejected;
we’re not called to be successful. We’re called to be faithful.
In defense of the Holy Father, when he met with world religions, when it was time to pray everyone was separated. The Pope was not aware that the muslims were put in a chapel. The muslims thought that the alter was a table and that’s where they set the budda . I also know that the Holy Father always passes out rosaries after these ecumenical meetings. I believe in dialogue, just not to be done in the Roman Catholic Church (a house of Worship. For CATHOLICS.) I also think it should be totally left in the hands of the Holy Father because our priests and bishops really seem to be spreading a false ecumenism; even treating catholics as second-class citizens. This seems to be reverting all blame back on the Pope, but like you said, ‘we should always give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt’

God bless and have a great evening
Shan

 

[dcmac]

An apology for the sacking of Constantinople was a holy gift from the Holy Father. Was it the Church who orchestrated the sacking of Constantinople? No of course not. Truth be told that was the Doge of Venice together with his merchant council, however the fact that the Holy Father is willing to apologize for the evil acts of Catholic Knights on a Holy Crusade under the banner of Rome was a great, holy gift… even if it is so late.

I love this pope. As a traditionalist Roman Church Catholic who is leaving for the Maronite Rite of the Syriac Catholic Church, I have to say that while I did not like a few things the Holy Father did and that they were mistakes I see in him as a holy man who is doing a saintly job of shepherding the Church in very, very difficult times. I suspect he will go down in history as ‘Pope St. John Paul II the Great’. And, despite the few things he’s done, and not done, that I strongly disagree with, I would say Amen to that pronouncement and hope that it is within my lifetime!

On a secondary level I have to say that the approach of EENS and his ilk throughout the world, is not only counterproductive, but perverse, uncharitable and, frankly, un-Christian. I am a traditionalist when it comes to the Roman Church – a traditionalist who does accept as valid the Novus Ordo Missae (even with its indults but free from liturgical abuse) of VCII, but VCII as well. I simply see a much more ancient, solemn spirituality in the Rite of St. Pius V than I do in the Novus Ordo Missae. I know too many traditionalists who operate in this manner. While it is not even 10% of those I know and have gone to worship Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on many occasions, it is they who give an ugly black-eye to the traditionalist movement. In fact they remind me of the seriously anti-Catholic former Catholic Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, JW’s and Mormons. Full of urine and vinegar. More on fire with hatred of their past than with love for the Lord. Indeed I have called a number of them just what they are - Roman Protestants. So be it. No ‘kick at EENS while he is down’ here, just an observation from a revert traditionalist who is moving on out of the Roman Church and in the Syriac Church (Maronite Catholics).

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite Catholic Priest,

Donncadh mag Eochadha, PsyD

 

[Irish_Melkite]

dcmac:

As a traditionalist Roman Church Catholic who is leaving for the Maronite Rite of the Syriac Catholic Church,

… just an observation from a revert traditionalist who is moving on out of the Roman Church and in the Syriac Church (Maronite Catholics).

Donnchadh,

This is off-thread, but your post leads me this … so …

I have observed a few of your other posts about your interest in obtaining a Change of Canonical Enrollment from the Latin Church to the Maronite with the hope that you will ultimately enter the priesthood. In all of them I have been concerned that your motivation to do so is not properly grounded. I wish I could find the post, which I believe was made in these forums, by one of my fellow Eastern Catholics, but I am unable to and, so, will instead paraphrase.

The Eastern Churches do not exist to be a haven for or an escapist venue for Catholics of the Latin Church who don’t like the theological presentations of their own Church or its liturgical forms.

Unfortunately, in much of your presentation, that is what I see you expressing. We of the East are Catholics, no less and no more than our sisters and brothers of the Latin Church. To obtain a Change of Canonical Enrollment requires that one have the permission of his/her current ordinary and the ordinary of the Eastern Catholic jurisdiction into which he seeks to be enrolled. Such requests must address the motivation for the request and, ordinarily, traditionalist viewpoints that result in an antagonistic view toward the NO and post-VII reforms are not deemed an appropriate basis for granting such Changes.

Why? Among other reasons are the fact that the Eastern Church one sees today may not be the one of tomorrow, as the Eastern Churches undergo their own reforms, intended to remove latinizations and restore our own traditions. Will the transplanted Latin still like us when we look less like the Church they’ve romanticized us to be? Or will they be disenchanted and want to move on? And to where? In most instances, only a single Change of Canonical Enrollment is permitted.

The extent to which one encounters this kind of situation (disenchantment with one’s new liturgical environment) will vary. Some Eastern Churches are much further along in achieving a return to their historical liturgical origins than others - so, WYSIWYG, to use a computer analogy (What You See Is What You Get). In others, what you see will not be what you’ll ultimately have. It’s telling that your interest is in the Maronite Church, one which suffered extraordinary latinization under French Latin missionaries and which still has a long way to go in returning to its roots. In a few years, it may not look at all like what you want and think you presently see.

(continued)