Pope apologizes for sack of Constantinople

[yochumjy]

EENS:

The Pope Blessed Pius IX during the Civil War stated that slavery in itself is NOT a sin. Slavery was around at the time of Christ: do you remember him condemning slavery? No. He condemned divorice because it is intrinsically wrong.

Hmmm, interesting about that statement. Do you have a source on that? I’d like to understand the context which he made that statement.

EENS:

As far as torture–what more proof do you need than the Church partaking in it over all the centuries. It is like the death penalty. People try to say it is wrong…then the Church has been wrong for 1900 years. The Council of Trent even stated that capital punishment is in “paramount obedience” to the Fifth Commandment. It merely gets worse and worse. Soon people will think that the death penalty is wrong, just as they think torture and slavery are intrinsically wrong. God bless.

No, you are wrong. The death penalty has at least some reasoning behind it, to protect innocent life, if there is no other way to secure the guilty. Just saying that the Church partook in torture, therefore it is not wrong is a very weak arguement. Did a pope teach this? Did a doctor of the church ever state that torture was okay in any instance? There is reason why capital punishment is allowable, those reasons are stated in the catachism, but there is no reasoning for torture. You can not equate the two because they are not equal. So, I repeat the original question.

How can torture not be wrong?

I HOPE you don’t jump on a “the ends justify the means” argument…

John

 

[EENS]

Calvin:

Since I am an ordained teaching officer in a Presbyterian denomination, you would, then, advocate my death?

-C

If you refuse to reject your error and continue to teach heresy, and if the government were a Catholic State, as it should be and has been in times past, any other religion would be illegal; therefore, your execution would be not only defensible but in defense of the innocent who are led astray by heresy. God bless.

 

[Hesychios]

hlgomez:

Remember Jesus said: “Go reconcile first with your brothers and then come back to the altar and offer your gifts.” The path to unity of all Christians is not just the desire of the Pope–it is the desire of the Lord Himself! "ut unum sint!

God bless,

Pio

Wow, that was beautiful.

Thanks

 

[kjvail]

This bothers me. It feels like political correctness run amok again.

It gives ammunition to the enemies of the Church that have beat us over the head with the myth of the Crusades for centuries.

In any case, EENS, the point (made by others) remains: the sacking of Constantinople was not a goal of the Crusades set forth by any of the popes who called them; to point out that it was a bad thing and for JPII to apologize for it is a separate issue from the Crusades per se.

pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/jan-june00/apology_3-13.html

This Pope already apologized for the Crusades I believe. Perhaps someone could clarify.

 

[EENS]

Chris Burgwald:

He apparently would, Calvin. But I’m confident that you realize that his view of Catholicism is erroneous on a number of points, including this one.

If I am wrong, St. Thomas Aquinas is wrong. Reason is wrong. The Church is wrong!

 

[EENS]

Chris Burgwald:

Yes, but by your standards, if he didn’t say it in an ex cathedra statement, then he could be wrong.

Now, for my part, I think you’re misunderstanding what he actually said, but that’s another story.

Jesus didn’t condemn abortion, either (as pro-aborts are quick to say), but that doesn’t mean that it’s not intrinsically wrong, does it?

Abortion was not “the norm” as slavery was in those times. In fact, it was hardly practiced. God bless.

 

[Catholic2003]

EENS:

As far as torture–what more proof do you need than the Church partaking in it over all the centuries.

What more proof do you need than the Supreme Pontiff (as well as other members of the Magisterium, e.g., Cardinal Ratzinger) clearly stating that the Church’s use of torture in the pursuit of truth was wrong, and apologizing for it.

You can believe whatever you want; I’m going to follow the Magisterium of the Church.

As for “what would Jesus do?”, I don’t recall Jesus torturing anyone in the New Testament.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

EENS:

If I am wrong, St. Thomas Aquinas is wrong.

But you already think that he’s wrong on invincible ignorance, so what’s the problem with him being wrong on torture?

EENS:

Reason is wrong.

That’s begging the question, EENS; you have by no means demonstrated or proven by reason that torture or killing people who deny a Catholic belief is right.

EENS:

The Church is wrong!

Where did the Church infallibly teach (again, that’s your standard, not mine) that torture and killing of non-Catholics was right?

 

[EENS]

Catholic2003:

This argument that you give to justify the Church’s use of torture can also be applied to justify many other things. For example, this argument can also be used to justify someone cheating on his taxes as long as the amount he underreports is less than the national average.

Since this other justification is faulty, by the rules of logical discourse I must conclude that your argument is incorrect.

There is not any acceptable use of torture in spreading the Gospel.

The Church has never condemned torture infallibly (in fact the only person to do so is the current Pope, I think). God bless.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

EENS:

Abortion was not “the norm” as slavery was in those times. In fact, it was hardly practiced.

1. Abortion has been around for millenia.
2. Infanticide was a relatively common practice in the greco-roman culture, yet Jesus didn’t condemn that, either.

 

[Catholic2003]

EENS:

The Church is wrong!

Which is why the Pope apologized.

 

[EENS]

Chris Burgwald:

But you already think that he’s wrong on invincible ignorance, so what’s the problem with him being wrong on torture?

That’s begging the question, EENS; you have by no means demonstrated or proven by reason that torture or killing people who deny a Catholic belief is right.

Where did the Church infallibly teach (again, that’s your standard, not mine) that torture and killing of non-Catholics was right?

Here is reason, via St. Thomas Aquinas:

The soul is more important than the body. Killing the soul, therefore, is much worse than killing the body. Those who kill the body are condemned to death. Therefore, those who kill the soul should be unequivocally condemned to death.

I meant that the Church in practice is wrong, not doctrinally.

God bless.

 

[Mandi]

Calvin:

I thought the Church was called to a higher standard than secular governments?

Are you against capital punishment today?

-C

I think capital punishment saves and has saved many people from going to Hell. And since our goal is to be happy with God in Heaven for some this is the only way of saving their wretched soul!

My Lord Jesus was Crucified!

If my Lord and my God could be unjustly condemned to die to open the gates of Heaven. Then surely any man can be condemned to death either justly or unjustly for the sake of saving his own soul.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

EENS:

The Church has never condemned torture infallibly

First, the fact that the Church doesn’t condemn something infallibly doesn’t mean that it doesn’t condemn it.

More importantly, the fact that it doesn’t condemn it infallibly doesn’t mean that it approves of it, either.

By your line of argument, the Church approves of embryonic stem-cell research, since it has never condemned it infallibly.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[EENS]

1. Abortion has been around for millenia.

1. Infanticide was a relatively common practice in the greco-roman culture, yet Jesus didn’t condemn that, either.

Slavery was the norm. Almost everyone either had slaves or was one. That is not true with abortion. Even today 1/3 of all babies are aborted (which is absolutely evil…1/3 of all people). In any event, it is clearly much worse now than in all of history, since it is legal now and never was before. Infanticide and abortion were NOT commonplace. Please bring soem reasonable evidence before you spew out stuff like that. God bless.

 

[EENS]

Chris Burgwald:

First, the fact that the Church doesn’t condemn something infallibly doesn’t mean that it doesn’t condemn it.

More importantly, the fact that it doesn’t condemn it infallibly doesn’t mean that it approves of it, either.

By your line of argument, the Church approves of embryonic stem-cell research, since it has never condemned it infallibly.

Do you see what I mean?

That is murder and has been condemned by the Church since the beginning.

 

[Calvin]

Chris Burgwald:

He apparently would, Calvin. But I’m confident that you realize that his view of Catholicism is erroneous on a number of points, including this one.

I do. I just wanted him (her) to say it, for the record so to speak.

I used to wear a St. Thomas Moore medal for many years and considered (consider?) him a personal hero. A few times I daydreamed about what I would do if I were in Herny VIII’s government with St. Thomas and how I would have liked to die with him as a matter of principle. One day I was reading some of his letters where he advocated the execution and torture of Protestants. It was a very sad day for me. I gave my medal to a Catholic friend in law school shortly thereafter and haven’t felt quite the same way about St. Thomas since then…

-C

 

[EENS]

Mandi:

I think capital punishment saves and has saved many people from going to Hell. And since our goal is to be happy with God in Heaven for some this is the only way of saving their wretched soul!

My Lord Jesus was Crucified!

If my Lord and my God could be unjustly condemned to die to open the gates of Heaven. Then surely any man can be condemned to death either justly or unjustly for the sake of saving his own soul.

Very true! Also, there is a man who is up for beatification right now who murdered someone. He, of course, was repentant and went to Confession. After this, while in prison, waiting to be put to death, he converted many to the Church. Because of this, the authorities told him he would not be sentenced, since he had done such good. Nevertheless, he was very fervent in requiring that he WOULD BE sentenced to death as his just punishment. If only we all would accept our punishments as this holy man did. God bless.

 

[Catholic2003]

EENS:

The Church has never condemned torture infallibly (in fact the only person to do so is the current Pope, I think).

The Church has never issued an infallible list of infallible statements. By the reasoning you endorse here (i.e., that you can deny any non-infallible teaching of the Church if you disagree with it), then you could in fact deny any Church teaching at all.

Since this conclusion is clearly ridiculous, I must again find your logic faulty.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

EENS:

That is murder and has been condemned by the Church since the beginning.

Good point, EENS. How about cloning, though? Does the Church approve of cloning since it has never infallibly condemned it?