Pope apologizes for sack of Constantinople

[Mandi]

EENS:

Go look to see how many people were converting before this false ecumenism started (before Vat II), and look at the figures now. It clearly does not work, and it is ridiculous to even consider it.

Found an interesting statistic from Fr. Greeley regarding Hispanics
Since 1972 The equivalent of one in seven Hispanics has left Catholicism. In 1972, 78% of Hispanics were Catholic, by the mid 1990’s 67% are Catholic. He estimates that 23% of U.S. Hispanics are now Protestant and approximately 600,000 people a year leave the Catholic Church. He notes that at this rate within the next 25 years half of all Hispanics will no longer be Catholic.

Findings from the American Religious Identification Survey 2001 - Hispanics who declared no religious affiliation more than doubled from 1990 to 2000 - 926,000 to 2.9 million Hispanics.

I know there are a bunch more statistics out there I will try and find them.

 

[EENS]

Catholic2003:

First of all, the Pope apologized for past deeds that were actually gravely wrong. To say otherwise would be to accuse the Pope of deception.

Secondly, although ecumenism is certainly a part of the reason for these apologies, I think that another reason is to help properly form the consciences of any misguided Catholics who think that torture is an acceptable practice to be used in support of spreading the Gospel.

Torture may have been used in the Crusades and Inquisition; however, torture was used by EVERYONE at that time. If you studfy the facts you will see that in both cases the Church was much dofter with the use of torture compared to the secular governments. God bless.

 

[Catholic2003]

EENS:

Torture may have been used in the Crusades and Inquisition; however, torture was used by EVERYONE at that time. If you studfy the facts you will see that in both cases the Church was much dofter with the use of torture compared to the secular governments. God bless.

This is true, but it is not really relevant to the point at hand. Just because someone else steals $1,000,000 doesn’t make it okay for me to steal $1,000. The use of torture was wrong, and Pope John Paul II did the right thing by apologizing for the Church’s involvement in its use.

 

[EENS]

Mandi:

Found an interesting statistic from Fr. Greeley regarding Hispanics
Since 1972 The equivalent of one in seven Hispanics has left Catholicism. In 1972, 78% of Hispanics were Catholic, by the mid 1990’s 67% are Catholic. He estimates that 23% of U.S. Hispanics are now Protestant and approximately 600,000 people a year leave the Catholic Church. He notes that at this rate within the next 25 years half of all Hispanics will no longer be Catholic.

Findings from the American Religious Identification Survey 2001 - Hispanics who declared no religious affiliation more than doubled from 1990 to 2000 - 926,000 to 2.9 million Hispanics.

I know there are a bunch more statistics out there I will try and find them.

Mandi, I assume you are not arguing with my points, as 1972 was after Vatican II, showing that this new ecumenism formed after the fact is useless. Also, there is a book: Handbook of Leading Catholic Indicators, which I suggest everyone buy. It shows how in everything: converts, nuns, brothers, Priests, seminarians, etc. were increasing since before Vat II, then, afterward how there was a sure and direct plummet almost directly down. God bless.

 

[Mandi]

a pilgrim:

if we use terms like “enemies” with which to refer to them.

Do not be decieved “The Church” has many, many “enemies” . A smart man recognizes his enemy and deals with it. I do believe Jesus preached and talked about these enemies and to be on your guard against them!

 

[EENS]

Catholic2003:

This is true, but it is not really relevant to the point at hand. Just because someone else steals $1,000,000 doesn’t make it okay for me to steal $1,000. The use of torture was wrong, and Pope John Paul II did the right thing by apologizing for the Church’s involvement in its use.

Torture is not intrinsically wrong, just as slavery is not intrinsically wrong; however, just as slavery in the US was wrong because of the practice of it, so was torture SOMETIMES wrong in times past. BUT the Church never was wrong it the use of torture, as She always was much softer than the average government (the average government only sometimes abusing torture). God bless.

 

[EENS]

Mandi:

Do not be decieved “The Church” has many, many “enemies” . A smart man recognizes his enemy and deals with it. I do believe Jesus preached and talked about these enemies and to be on your guard against them!

All heretics are enemies of the Church!!

 

[yochumjy]

EENS:

Torture is not intrinsically wrong, just as slavery is not intrinsically wrong; however, just as slavery in the US was wrong because of the practice of it, so was torture SOMETIMES wrong in times past. BUT the Church never was wrong it the use of torture, as She always was much softer than the average government (the average government only sometimes abusing torture). God bless.

Could you please explain when torture is not wrong.

Could you in addition explain when slavery is not wrong.

Just because something is accepted does not make it wrong. Moses may have allowed divorce, but as Jesus said it was becuase of the hardness of their hearts. That does not mean it was right.

John

 

[Mandi]

EENS:

Mandi, I assume you are not arguing with my points, as 1972 was after Vatican II, showing that this new ecumenism formed after the fact is useless. Also, there is a book: Handbook of Leading Catholic Indicators, which I suggest everyone buy. It shows how in everything: converts, nuns, brothers, Priests, seminarians, etc. were increasing since before Vat II, then, afterward how there was a sure and direct plummet almost directly down. God bless.

Nope not arguing at all - here is a couple more statistics

Catholic Priests in America
1967 - 59,193 - 2003 - 44,487

Religious Sisters
1964 - 180,015 - 2003 - 74,698

Seminaries in America
1962 – 454 - 2003 - 213

Catholic Marriages in America
1971 - 416,924 - 2003 - 241,727

etc. etc. etc.

 

[EENS]

Mandi:

Nope not arguing at all - here is a couple more statistics

Catholic Priests in America
1967 - 59,193 - 2003 - 44,487

Religious Sisters
1964 - 180,015 - 2003 - 74,698

Seminaries in America
1962 – 454 - 2003 - 213

Catholic Marriages in America
1971 - 416,924 - 2003 - 241,727

etc. etc. etc.

Since you metioned Marriages–don’t forget number of annulments!!

I think I read from sometime in the '60s compared to 2000, there was a 4000% (or more?!) increase in annulments. It was an exerpt from Handbook of Leading Catholic Indicators. God bless.

 

[Hesychios]

EENS:

Torture is not intrinsically wrong, just as slavery is not intrinsically wrong; however, just as slavery in the US was wrong because of the practice of it, so was torture SOMETIMES wrong in times past. BUT the Church never was wrong it the use of torture, as She always was much softer than the average government (the average government only sometimes abusing torture). God bless.

EENS,

Rationalization will become your undoing. This is no way to defend the church.

You surprise me, only being honest about everything will win people over to your convictions.

In Christ Always,
Michael

 

[Calvin]

EENS:

If you studfy the facts you will see that in both cases the Church was much dofter with the use of torture compared to the secular governments.

I thought the Church was called to a higher standard than secular governments?

Are you against capital punishment today?

-C

 

[EENS]

yochumjy:

Could you please explain when torture is not wrong.

Could you in addition explain when slavery is not wrong.

Just because something is accepted does not make it wrong. Moses may have allowed divorce, but as Jesus said it was becuase of the hardness of their hearts. That does not mean it was right.

John

The Pope Blessed Pius IX during the Civil War stated that slavery in itself is NOT a sin. Slavery was around at the time of Christ: do you remember him condemning slavery? No. He condemned divorice because it is intrinsically wrong.

As far as torture–what more proof do you need than the Church partaking in it over all the centuries. It is like the death penalty. People try to say it is wrong…then the Church has been wrong for 1900 years. The Council of Trent even stated that capital punishment is in “paramount obedience” to the Fifth Commandment. It merely gets worse and worse. Soon people will think that the death penalty is wrong, just as they think torture and slavery are intrinsically wrong. God bless.

 

[EENS]

Calvin:

I thought the Church was called to a higher standard than secular governments?

Are you against capital punishment today?

-C

No, I am a firm supporter of capital punishment. If possible, I would have capital punishment in MANY cases if DNA were able to prove guilt, especially in that of teaching heresy. God bless.

 

[EENS]

Hesychios:

EENS,

Rationalization will become your undoing. This is no way to defend the church.

You surprise me, only being honest about everything will win people over to your convictions.

In Christ Always,
Michael

What exactly are you saying–sorry, I must be slow?

God bless.

 

[Calvin]

EENS:

No, I am a firm supporter of capital punishment. If possible, I would have capital punishment in MANY cases if DNA were able to prove guilt, especially in that of teaching heresy. God bless.

Since I am an ordained teaching officer in a Presbyterian denomination, you would, then, advocate my death?

-C

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

EENS:

The Pope Blessed Pius IX during the Civil War stated that slavery in itself is NOT a sin.

Yes, but by your standards, if he didn’t say it in an ex cathedra statement, then he could be wrong.

Now, for my part, I think you’re misunderstanding what he actually said, but that’s another story.

EENS:

Slavery was around at the time of Christ: do you remember him condemning slavery? No. He condemned divorice because it is intrinsically wrong.

Jesus didn’t condemn abortion, either (as pro-aborts are quick to say), but that doesn’t mean that it’s not intrinsically wrong, does it?

 

[hlgomez]

Tom,

You must have the mind of Christ. Don’t prejudge the Pope, he is the head of the Church. There’s nothing wrong in asking for forgiveness for those people who sack Constatinolple. For how can we be united if there’s still hatred and resentment in our hearts? Remember Jesus said: “Go reconcile first with your brothers and then come back to the altar and offer your gifts.” The path to unity of all Christians is not just the desire of the Pope–it is the desire of the Lord Himself! "ut unum sint!

God bless,

Pio

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Calvin:

Since I am an ordained teaching officer in a Presbyterian denomination, you would, then, advocate my death?

He apparently would, Calvin. But I’m confident that you realize that his view of Catholicism is erroneous on a number of points, including this one.

 

[Catholic2003]

EENS:

BUT the Church never was wrong it the use of torture, as She always was much softer than the average government (the average government only sometimes abusing torture).

This argument that you give to justify the Church’s use of torture can also be applied to justify many other things. For example, this argument can also be used to justify someone cheating on his taxes as long as the amount he underreports is less than the national average.

Since this other justification is faulty, by the rules of logical discourse I must conclude that your argument is incorrect.

There is not any acceptable use of torture in spreading the Gospel.