Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message

[christofirst]

I’m pretty sure this is the quote Reuters was referring to:

"The Rediscovery of fraternity in the economy

1. The grave financial and economic crises of the present time - which find their origin in the progressive distancing of man from God and from his neighbor, in the greedy pursuit of material goods on the one hand, and in the impoverishment of interpersonal and community relations on the other - have pushed man to seek satisfaction, happiness and security in consumption and** earnings out of all proportion **to the principles of a sound economy."

I could interpret that as fat salaries and bonuses.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

What struck me is that in OUR culture the contempt for the weakest, the useless is manifested in the Democrat pro abortion platform. What is weaker than an unborn child? Even the poorest in our country CAN sustain life, get food, shelter, and medical care. They are ALIVE unlike the millions of “useless” unborn babies discarded because of the cruel and heartless attitudes of those in power.

Further we do no service to the poor by being dishonest and patronizing. In America the vast majority of the poor are there because of poor decision making by themselves, their parents, or sadly generations before. We have generational poverty borne of government programs intended to FIGHT poverty that have simply not addressed the underlying causes of these problems. Flinging money at chaotic and dysfunctional cultural “norms” does not help either those mired within them or prevent the next generation from following suit.

As to mega salaries for CEO’s, while I do not personally think they deserve them in many cases, we have to be equitable in our attitude. What about sports figures? Celebrities? Actors? Musicians? Do THEY deserve millions more than us great unwashed who pay to see them? Why don’t they say STOP!!! Why don’t they give their money to the poor? Our clinic office receives a number of pop culture magazines that show what mega million dollar home or mega thousand dollar handbag was purchased by some drug addled pop tart. It disgusts me to no end. I suspect the Holy Father also referred to that type of rampant greed and consumerism but somehow since the Hollywood elites are “in” with the Beltway elites, the media never points this out

Lisa

“mega-salaries” is a bit more complex than people would like to believe.

For example, the Wal-Mart CEO makes around $20.7 million a year. Wal-Mart employs over 2 million people. Now what good would it do to the average employee if he gives back his salary to be distributed to the employees?

Also, Wal-Mart cuts margins to , they may hurt their stock, which millions of middle class people own in 401ks and other such plans.

Wal-Mart operates on razor thin margins as it is. If they have to raise prices, it may hurt the poor as well who count on Wal-Marts low prices.

 

[Darryl1958]

Some sort of objective evidence, pretty please. Among the poor, poverty is often the cause of family strife and other problems which lead to family dissolution, but I cannot say it is the only cause or even the main cause because I have no stats to support that.

Since I was merely quoting the pope in his article and offering an executive summary of one of the main themes, should we assume that the pope would be making this speech without the basic research required to speak intelligently on the matter?

 

[LisaA]

Which Pew study? I don’t have to present any evidence since I made no claim about “the vast majority of the poor”. You made that statement and continue to defend it, so please give some supporting evidence.

seekerz I’ve been on the Forum too long to fall for the Tom Sawyer trick. If you do not believe my sources so be it.

I appreciate that Holy Father bringing up these issues and I think they are worthy of discussion. Further I do not, as you seem to believe invariably blame the poor for their state in life. I do believe that poverty in this country is not, as in Third World countries, far beyond the person’s control. However we now have multi generational poverty and it has become institutionalized, particularly in certain cultures and certain areas. I remember a PSA when I was a kid that said “Children learn what they live…” So if you take a third or fourth or fifth generation child of single mothers, uninvolved fathers, poor opportunities for education and a rampant drug culture, it’s very unlikely that child will get out of this mire. If children have never seen a traditional family with married opposite sex parents who value education and are employed, how are they ever going to grow up to achieve these productive lives?

But again, some rich CEO or football player or pop singer’s wages being redistributed are not going to solve THESE problems or prevent poverty in the future.

Lisa

 

[Darryl1958]

spot on and totally ignored by the Left which seems determined to FURTHER distance sexual activity from marriage and procreation by pushing free birth control, abortions at will and “dead” relationships such as same sex “marriage.”

Lisa

There is an irony that the left on the one hand celebrates the sexually sterile marriages of the same sex, and also celebrates the demise of heterosexual marriage as antiquated, such as in a Newsweek article of about a year ago.

The irony is only apparent though, for in the end they are working toward the same goal.

One wonders if the black and minority family was less poor before the era of civil rights, according to Seekerz query, by the way?. For if that is the case, and poverty is the cause and not the effect of the dissolution of their families from 2/3 success rate in the early 60’s to less than 1/4 today, civil rights have been a complete failure.
Or, we can assume that the many voices that call for sexuality as a means of personal fulfillment have been very effective at loosening the ties of marriage since that time.

Anyway, this most certainly an aspect of the pope’s speech not covered by Reuters, or the leftist voices here, and when introduced into the conversation here, it is an aspect that has been greeted with high degrees of skepticism.

 

[shockerfan]

seekerz I’ve been on the Forum too long to fall for the Tom Sawyer trick. If you do not believe my sources so be it.

I appreciate that Holy Father bringing up these issues and I think they are worthy of discussion. Further I do not, as you seem to believe invariably blame the poor for their state in life. I do believe that poverty in this country is not, as in Third World countries, far beyond the person’s control. However we now have multi generational poverty and it has become institutionalized, particularly in certain cultures and certain areas. I remember a PSA when I was a kid that said “Children learn what they live…” So if you take a third or fourth or fifth generation child of single mothers, uninvolved fathers, poor opportunities for education and a rampant drug culture, it’s very unlikely that child will get out of this mire. If children have never seen a traditional family with married opposite sex parents who value education and are employed, how are they ever going to grow up to achieve these productive lives?

But again, some rich CEO or football player or pop singer’s wages being redistributed are not going to solve THESE problems or prevent poverty in the future.

Lisa

Lisa,

You are spot on, as your points are basic common sense. We can speak in terms of generalities as most things fall into a bell-curve…and the causes of being poor is not really different.

Most people are where they are at in life due to the sum total of the decisions they have made. There are definitely people to whom that does not apply…people who through no fault of their own are unable to provide their basic needs. I know of NO conservative friends of mine who would not help those people. The issue is with the folks that decide smoking pot is more fun that studying, or that becoming pregnant is a better path than school, or racking up a big debt to major in Greek Mythology, or not be willing to move where jobs are, etc.,

I need no statistics to say that engaging in that kind of behavior is not conducive to financial independence. To say otherwise would be like saying I need statistics to know I should not put my hand on a hot stove.

 

[frobert]

seekerz I’ve been on the Forum too long to fall for the Tom Sawyer trick. If you do not believe my sources so be it.
I do believe that poverty in this country is not, as in Third World countries, far beyond the person’s control.

Have you considered how many working people are below the poverty level? Have you missed the news over the last few weeks about fast food workers are demanding a living wage?

Have you heard about the trillion dollar student loan debacle that puts many students in perpetual debt? Perpetual debt is a sign of a 3rd world country.

Have you heard about the multitude of working people who are one or two pay checks away from poverty?

I could go on and on, but I think you can catch my drift.

 

[stinkcat_14]

seekerz I’ve been on the Forum too long to fall for the Tom Sawyer trick. If you do not believe my sources so be it.

Can you provide a link to your source, and by that I mean the original study that backs up your claim?

 

[LisaA]

Have you considered how many working people are below the poverty level? Have you missed the news over the last few weeks about fast food workers are demanding a living wage?

Have you heard about the trillion dollar student loan debacle that puts many students in perpetual debt? Perpetual debt is a sign of a 3rd world country.

Have you heard about the multitude of working people who are one or two pay checks away from poverty?

I could go on and on, but I think you can catch my drift.

Please don’t just rattle off a litany of statements neither addressing the post nor the Holy Father’s words. How does one respond to this sort of disjointed argument? The reality is that the vast majority of Americans are a couple paychecks away from financial disaster. We have a low savings rate and as the Holy Father has noted, a huge CONSUMERISM culture that pushes people to spend beyond their means. But then so does our government which in fact is one of the reasons our country is in sad shape. None of this is related to how much the president of GE or Walmart earns. There are a handful of such executives. There are millions and millions of Americans who are losing ground due to the moribund economy. Growth, not redistribution is the way to help the working folks.

As to the Student Loan “debacle” there is a perfect example of poor decision making on the part of students. I do not know of any demand that someone apply for or accept student loans. Further the plethora of easy money and government programs (driving us further in debt) has allowed colleges and universities to increase tuition and fees far beyond other inflationary drivers. The more government money, the higher the cost, the more government money is demanded. As you noted, this is a real disaster waiting to happen as I understand student loan debt exceeds credit card debt in this country.

But whose fault is that? Jeffrey Immelt? Does the amount of his salary force ill informed students to take on loans?

As was noted in an earlier post, too many students have succumbed to the easy money, living large and racking up tens if not hundreds of thousands in debt. Unfortunately far too many of them major in ____________ studies or sociology or some other impractical or low paying field. They then cry foul as they are unable to get jobs sufficient to pay the loans and have a life. Back to mom’s basement…

As to the "living wage’ meme, it’s convenient cover for unions who are bleeding memberships and looking for fresh meat. The reality is there are far more people looking for those jobs than jobs available. Even in the Leftist if all Leftist cities, Washington DC, thousands and thousands applied for a couple hundred jobs at Walmart.

It’s supply and demand frobert. If you are a worker or a student what you are paid is related to the demand for and difficulty of your skill set.

Oh and an aside, in our state the majority of applicants for well paying manufacturing jobs test positive for drugs and thus are not hired. There are many places looking for skilled, energetic and drug/alcohol free workers even in my state which has among the highest unemployment levels.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Can you provide a link to your source, and by that I mean the original study that backs up your claim?

No Tom, I wont but it sure is fun to whitewash that fence
Lisa

 

[stinkcat_14]

No Tom, I wont but it sure is fun to whitewash that fence
Lisa

In other words, you have no evidence to back up your claim.

 

[frobert]

Please don’t just rattle off a litany of statements neither addressing the post nor the Holy Father’s words. How does one respond to this sort of disjointed argument? The reality is that the vast majority of Americans are a couple paychecks away from financial disaster. We have a low savings rate and as the Holy Father has noted, a huge CONSUMERISM culture that pushes people to spend beyond their means. But then so does our government which in fact is one of the reasons our country is in sad shape. None of this is related to how much the president of GE or Walmart earns. There are a handful of such executives. There are millions and millions of Americans who are losing ground due to the moribund economy. Growth, not redistribution is the way to help the working folks.

As to the Student Loan “debacle” there is a perfect example of poor decision making on the part of students. I do not know of any demand that someone apply for or accept student loans. Further the plethora of easy money and government programs (driving us further in debt) has allowed colleges and universities to increase tuition and fees far beyond other inflationary drivers. The more government money, the higher the cost, the more government money is demanded. As you noted, this is a real disaster waiting to happen as I understand student loan debt exceeds credit card debt in this country.

But whose fault is that? Jeffrey Immelt? Does the amount of his salary force ill informed students to take on loans?

As was noted in an earlier post, too many students have succumbed to the easy money, living large and racking up tens if not hundreds of thousands in debt. Unfortunately far too many of them major in ____________ studies or sociology or some other impractical or low paying field. They then cry foul as they are unable to get jobs sufficient to pay the loans and have a life. Back to mom’s basement…

As to the "living wage’ meme, it’s convenient cover for unions who are bleeding memberships and looking for fresh meat. The reality is there are far more people looking for those jobs than jobs available. Even in the Leftist if all Leftist cities, Washington DC, thousands and thousands applied for a couple hundred jobs at Walmart.

It’s supply and demand frobert. If you are a worker or a student what you are paid is related to the demand for and difficulty of your skill set.

Oh and an aside, in our state the majority of applicants for well paying manufacturing jobs test positive for drugs and thus are not hired. There are many places looking for skilled, energetic and drug/alcohol free workers even in my state which has among the highest unemployment levels.

Lisa

Lisa,

I was simply responding to your statement

I do believe that poverty in this country is not, as in Third World countries, far beyond the person’s control.

When you make a statement you open the door for a response to it just as I opened the door for your response. FWIW, I now know where you stand.

Thank you for the economic lecture.

 

[markomalley]

I’m pretty sure this is the quote Reuters was referring to:

"The Rediscovery of fraternity in the economy

1. The grave financial and economic crises of the present time - which find their origin in the progressive distancing of man from God and from his neighbor, in the greedy pursuit of material goods on the one hand, and in the impoverishment of interpersonal and community relations on the other - have pushed man to seek satisfaction, happiness and security in consumption and** earnings out of all proportion **to the principles of a sound economy."

I could interpret that as fat salaries and bonuses.

That is a stretch. And a lot of private interpretation on the part of the reporter.

 

[LisaA]

In other words, you have no evidence to back up your claim.

Oooh from Tom Sawyer to neener neener neener! As I told seekerz, I’ve been on the forum far too long to fall for this baloney. If you don’t believe me so be it. If you have evidence to the contrary bring it on! I don’t really care either way.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Lisa,

I was simply responding to your statement

When you make a statement you open the door for a response to it just as I opened the door for your response. FWIW, I now know where you stand.

Thank you for the economic lecture.

You are most welcome!
Lisa

 

[stinkcat_14]

Oooh from Tom Sawyer to neener neener neener! As I told seekerz, I’ve been on the forum far too long to fall for this baloney. If you don’t believe me so be it. If you have evidence to the contrary bring it on! I don’t really care either way.

Lisa

Who said I didn’t believe you? I asked for your evidence, after all, you were the one who made the claim. If you don’t want to back up your claims, why do you make them in the first place?

I am just following what scripture tells us: “Test everything; retain what is good.”

 

[LisaA]

Who said I didn’t believe you? I asked for your evidence, after all, you were the one who made the claim. If you don’t want to back up your claims, why do you make them in the first place?

I am just following what scripture tells us: “Test everything; retain what is good.”

Go ahead and test it then. I’m not interested in doing it for you. As to the Census information posted, that’s easily verifiable.

Again if you have some disputing facts or even a good theory or two, bring it on. I believe you work in the social services environment or did. So what do you think are the causes of poverty if not family dynamics, lack of education and substance abuse?

Lisa

 

[Havard]

Nah.

To be perfectly honest, the prompting for my post had nothing to do with partisan influences. It was based on what I personally experienced discussing poverty with some of my fellow Catholics and seeing their views reflected in the attitudes of one or two prominent figures. Which is why I mentioned the silence - because one or two people making outrageous statements is not necessarily a big deal unless the response (or lack thereof) indicates that it is a big deal.

It can be hard these days to comment on social issues without being categorized - which I believe is why the Pope’s repeated references to the poor is causing so much debate. Like I have said a million times, I see nothing new in his words. My morning meditation reminded me that God identifies with the poor, so unless the meaning of the word ‘poor’ recently changed, I can’t understand the “sky is falling” reaction to the Church’s ageless teaching.

Makes sense.

But keep in mind that these “sky is falling” folks aren’t completely at fault, many of them are simply reacting to headlines that the Holy Father is doing something radically different than his predecessors.

There’s bound to be some strong reactions and some defensiveness, we’re dealing with people after all.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Go ahead and test it then. I’m not interested in doing it for you. As to the Census information posted, that’s easily verifiable.

You claimed a study supported your hypothesis. How can I evaluate that study if you won’t tell me which study supports your hypothesis? Are you saying there is no study?

We can both agree there is no study, but your claim is merely a figment of your imagination. In other words, you made a silly claim, that is fine. Because there is no evidence that there is any study to back up your claim.

Again if you have some disputing facts or even a good theory or two, bring it on.

I have not disputed anything.

I believe you work in the social services environment or did. So what do you think are the causes of poverty if not family dynamics, lack of education and substance abuse?

Lisa

Never worked in that area. Like I said, we can both agree that there is no evidence of any study to back up your claims.

 

[Dawnia]

As was noted in an earlier post, too many students have succumbed to the easy money, living large and racking up tens if not hundreds of thousands in debt. Unfortunately far too many of them major in ____________ studies or sociology or some other impractical or low paying field. They then cry foul as they are unable to get jobs sufficient to pay the loans and have a life. Back to mom’s basement…

Hey, now, don’t go hatin’ on sociology. It’s a perfectly good 2nd major. In defense of many students, colleges feed them the line that every major has big potential and the risk of taking out huge loans will pay off. It doesn’t help that many people who are now struggling to pay those student loans took them out when the economy still looked somewhat rosy.

As to the "living wage’ meme, it’s convenient cover for unions who are bleeding memberships and looking for fresh meat. The reality is there are far more people looking for those jobs than jobs available. Even in the Leftist if all Leftist cities, Washington DC, thousands and thousands applied for a couple hundred jobs at Walmart.

26,000 for 600 jobs in 2 stores. You know the economy is bad when people are fighting for Walmart jobs.

It’s supply and demand frobert. If you are a worker or a student what you are paid is related to the demand for and difficulty of your skill set.

Oh and an aside, in our state the majority of applicants for well paying manufacturing jobs test positive for drugs and thus are not hired. There are many places looking for skilled, energetic and drug/alcohol free workers even in my state which has among the highest unemployment levels.

Lisa

From what I’ve been told, some insurance companies require it. It helps protect against liability for self-inflicted accidents.