Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message

[shockerfan]

Have you considered how many working people are below the poverty level? Have you missed the news over the last few weeks about fast food workers are demanding a living wage?

Have you heard about the trillion dollar student loan debacle that puts many students in perpetual debt? Perpetual debt is a sign of a 3rd world country.

Have you heard about the multitude of working people who are one or two pay checks away from poverty?

I could go on and on, but I think you can catch my drift.

While I would agree that we need to be just in our treatment of the poor, but is there not also a reasonable expectation on some of those poor to act in a manner that does not keep them in a perpetual state of poverty?

You mentioned student debt. Does a student in debt not bear the brunt of the responsibility of their situation if they get a degree that there is no demand for? Or a student that goes in debt but does not work hard to get the best grades possible for their ability?

I would also say that when people vote for a president whose very policies are not conducive to businesses hiring more people, didn’t they reap what they sowed?

My point is that we need balance, which is what I believe Francis’ message to be. We need to treat the poor in a just fashion, but those in that situation must also use their God given gifts wisely (Matt 25: 14-30)

 

[Birdpreacher]

“The grave financial and economic crises of the present time … have pushed man to seek satisfaction, happiness and security in consumption and earnings out of all proportion to the principles of a sound economy,” he said.

“The succession of economic crises should lead to a timely rethinking of our models of economic development and to a change in lifestyles,” he said.

Francis, who was named Time magazine’s Person of the Year on Wednesday, has urged his own Church to be more fair, frugal and less pompous and to be closer to the poor and suffering.

reuters.com/article/2013/12/12/us-pope-economy-idUSBRE9BB0EH20131212?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

 

[tjones80]

reuters.com/article/2013/12/12/us-pope-economy-idUSBRE9BB0EH20131212?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

This not an attack. It is an observation.

 

[frobert]

You mentioned student debt. Does a student in debt not bear the brunt of the responsibility of their situation if they get a degree that there is no demand for? Or a student that goes in debt but does not work hard to get the best grades possible for their ability?

Student loans are evil.

Student loans can not be forgiven in bankruptcy.

Cost of College Degree in U.S. Soars 12 Fold: Chart of the Day

There is a lack of jobs for college grads yet we continue to encourage costly college degrees
Only 27 percent of college grads have a job related to their major

Qui bono? College loans are guaranteed (with US tax dollars) to the lender encouraging the lender to make loans regardless of the merits of the University or credit worthiness of the applicant.

There is over one trillion dollars in college loans and a high default leaving us, our children and grandchildren on the hook.

These are just a few of why I believe the loans to be evil.

 

[MJE]

The conventional wisdom says that if we want to increase opportunities for children, we should give their families more income. Of course money is a factor in upward mobility, but it isn’t the only one; it may not even be the most important, says the Brookings Institution.

According to Brookings:
•If you want to avoid poverty and join the middle class in the United States, you need to do three things: Complete high school (at a minimum), work full time and marry before you have children.
•If you do all three, your chances of being poor fall from 12 percent to 2 percent, and your chances of joining the middle class or above rise from 56 to 74 percent.
•Brookings defines middle class as having an income of at least $50,000 a year for a family of three.

Many American families need supplements to their incomes in the form of food stamps, affordable housing and welfare payments. But such aid should not be given unconditionally, says Brookings:
•The public is concerned that unconditional assistance will end up supporting those who are not trying to help themselves.
•New research in economics and psychology has shown that individuals frequently behave in ways that undermine their long-term welfare and can benefit from a government nudge in the right direction.

Policies with strings attached have had considerable success, says Brookings. One example is the 1996 welfare reform law, which required most adult recipients to get jobs, and dramatically increased employment and lowered overall child poverty. In the midst of a recession, we can’t expect everyone to work. But social policies will be more successful if they encourage people to do things that bring longer-term success.

Source: Isabel V. Sawhill and Ron Haskins, “Five Myths About Our Land of Opportunity,” Brookings Institute, November 1, 2009.

For text:

brookings.edu/opinions/2009/1101_opportunity_sawhill_haskins.aspx

 

[shockerfan]

Student loans are evil.

Student loans can not be forgiven in bankruptcy.

Cost of College Degree in U.S. Soars 12 Fold: Chart of the Day

There is a lack of jobs for college grads yet we continue to encourage costly college degrees
Only 27 percent of college grads have a job related to their major

Qui bono? College loans are guaranteed (with US tax dollars) to the lender encouraging the lender to make loans regardless of the merits of the University or credit worthiness of the applicant.

There is over one trillion dollars in college loans and a high default leaving us, our children and grandchildren on the hook.

These are just a few of why I believe the loans to be evil.

You make a lot of good points…but does the student not play a role in getting into the mess to begin with? My point about people being financially dependent is that many, many times they are their because of their own decisions.

 

[LisaA]

The conventional wisdom says that if we want to increase opportunities for children, we should give their families more income. Of course money is a factor in upward mobility, but it isn’t the only one; it may not even be the most important, says the Brookings Institution.

According to Brookings:
•If you want to avoid poverty and join the middle class in the United States, you need to do three things: Complete high school (at a minimum), work full time and marry before you have children.
•If you do all three, your chances of being poor fall from 12 percent to 2 percent, and your chances of joining the middle class or above rise from 56 to 74 percent.
•Brookings defines middle class as having an income of at least $50,000 a year for a family of three.

Many American families need supplements to their incomes in the form of food stamps, affordable housing and welfare payments. But such aid should not be given unconditionally, says Brookings:
•The public is concerned that unconditional assistance will end up supporting those who are not trying to help themselves.
•New research in economics and psychology has shown that individuals frequently behave in ways that undermine their long-term welfare and can benefit from a government nudge in the right direction.

Policies with strings attached have had considerable success, says Brookings. One example is the 1996 welfare reform law, which required most adult recipients to get jobs, and dramatically increased employment and lowered overall child poverty. In the midst of a recession, we can’t expect everyone to work. But social policies will be more successful if they encourage people to do things that bring longer-term success.

Source: Isabel V. Sawhill and Ron Haskins, “Five Myths About Our Land of Opportunity,” Brookings Institute, November 1, 2009.

For text:

brookings.edu/opinions/2009/1101_opportunity_sawhill_haskins.aspx

Mary thank you, I somehow recalled it was a Pew Research study. Stinkcat take note above. There is one of the studies that documents how much of our eventual risk of poverty is within our own hands.

However the reality is that with generational poverty and unformed family structure we now have several generations of children born into the kind of circumstances that make their rise into middle class extremely difficult. Throwing money at the problem which is the usual Leftist meme does NOT SOLVE THE UNDERLYING ISSUES. Whenever I hears screams and howls from the Left about some program being cut, it disguises the reality that we should look at why such a program was necessary in the first place rather than continue to feed the beast ever increasing rations. That solves nothing and increases our country’s debt which will be visited upon future generations.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

You make a lot of good points…but does the student not play a role in getting into the mess to begin with? My point about people being financially dependent is that many, many times they are their because of their own decisions.

Exactly. And I have a very hard time feeling sorry for someone who’s racked up tens of thousands of student loan debt without having a plan about paying it off. However our culture pushes them into college whether or not it’s appropriate or the best choice for that particular student. It’s particularly egregious to see politicians encouraging people to “follow their dream” when it’s on the taxpayer’s dime. Most colleges and universities receive huge support from government…I mean the rest of us. Further there seems precious little counselling of these students when they apply for the loans. The universities are all for it as it adds to their bottom line but it’s not ethical IMO to push naive kids into running up a big tab and not even discussing the eventual payoff. I think that all such loans should be subject to the same laws as consumer debt where you are shown in black and white how much in total you will pay over varying periods of time. But once again, these are not babies, they are young adults. They need to understand when they have signed on the line, it’s not free money. Too many are living by that old Grass Roots song lyrics…sha la la la la la la live for today and don’t worry 'bout tomorrow baby!"

Lisa

 

[seekerz]

seekerz I’ve been on the Forum too long to fall for the Tom Sawyer trick. If you do not believe my sources so be it.
Lisa

Which trick? You made a statement about “the vast majority of the poor” and you cannot even quote me what percentage of the poor that is.You haven’t given me any sources that support your statement that most of the poor are responsible for their poverty. Have I called that a trick?

Praise be to God and many thanks to Papa Francisco, the poor are being given back the respect they deserve. Just because a people don’t have money doesn’t make it open season on their characters.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Exactly. And I have a very hard time feeling sorry for someone who’s racked up tens of thousands of student loan debt without having a plan about paying it off. However our culture pushes them into college whether or not it’s appropriate or the best choice for that particular student. It’s particularly egregious to see politicians encouraging people to “follow their dream” when it’s on the taxpayer’s dime. Most colleges and universities receive huge support from government…I mean the rest of us. Further there seems precious little counselling of these students when they apply for the loans. The universities are all for it as it adds to their bottom line but it’s not ethical IMO to push naive kids into running up a big tab and not even discussing the eventual payoff. I think that all such loans should be subject to the same laws as consumer debt where you are shown in black and white how much in total you will pay over varying periods of time. But once again, these are not babies, they are young adults. They need to understand when they have signed on the line, it’s not free money. Too many are living by that old Grass Roots song lyrics…sha la la la la la la live for today and don’t worry 'bout tomorrow baby!"

Lisa

I similarly have a hard time listening to people who have in many cases come to America without a plan, and then complaining about not making a “living” wage at McDonald’s. We can argue about what is just and fair, but what exactly was the plan in those cases? Come here, and then demand to be paid more to afford the higher cost of living? This obviously doesn’t apply to all the workers, but to those it does, I have to scratch my head.

Most of the times I have had things not work out for me in life, it was because of a decision I made. Taking on student loans for a degree that “truly sparks your passion” with no real plan to pay for it is one of those decisions. As with any financial transaction, there has to be some tangible return on your investment. Otherwise, you are better off simply being a voracious reader at a public library.

 

[frobert]

Whenever I hears screams and howls from the Left about some program being cut, it disguises the reality that we should look at why such a program was necessary in the first place rather than continue to feed the beast ever increasing rations. That solves nothing and increases our country’s debt which will be visited upon future generations.

Lisa

Please tell us, if you know, who is trying to cut to the chase, find the root problems and offer solutions. I agree that throwing money at the problem doesn’t solve anything, just as cutting taxes doesn’t benefit anyone much except for the multi-millionaires and billionaires. I hear about what nut cases the left are and what nut cases the right are. Maybe the socially conscious politicians on either side have some ideas to solve the problem of poverty without throwing money at it or at reasonable affordable cost but I haven’t heard anything come from them. Before you call me a left wing nut, I am neither right nor left, to me it is obvious that the only differences are the prejudices that they use to soothe their bases while their constituents, the ones they do things for, are the same on the right as on the left.

Making predictions is always risky but if something is not done soon I fear that poverty will get worse in the US, infrastructure will continue to crumble, inequality will continue to grow and the middle class will continue to shrink.

 

[seekerz]

Mary thank you, I somehow recalled it was a Pew Research study. Stinkcat take note above. There is one of the studies that documents how much of our eventual risk of poverty is within our own hands.

However the reality is that with generational poverty and unformed family structure we now have several generations of children born into the kind of circumstances that make their rise into middle class extremely difficult. Throwing money at the problem which is the usual Leftist meme does NOT SOLVE THE UNDERLYING ISSUES. Whenever I hears screams and howls from the Left about some program being cut, it disguises the reality that we should look at why such a program was necessary in the first place rather than continue to feed the beast ever increasing rations. That solves nothing and increases our country’s debt which will be visited upon future generations.

Lisa

This quote is not information that backs up your statement. It deals with the probability of an individual growing up to be poor (not sure with regard to which economy - today’s or last decade’s, because I see the date as 2009 and I know there are college-educated people unemployed or underemployed today). It tells us nothing about the distribution of causes of poverty among the poor, but I’m a patient person…

 

[fshvmsj]

I am confused by our Holy Pope Francis, children borne out wedlock will have a good chance of being poor ,Gay marriage, abortion and pornography are destroying our country. He said not to focus on only 2 issues abortion and homosexuality, is he not doing the same just focusing on capitalism? what about communism or the Christians being slaughtered in the Middle East?. I am going to confession Saturday, I am confused and sad with our Popes statements.

 

[seekerz]

I similarly have a hard time listening to people who have in many cases come to America without a plan, and then complaining about not making a “living” wage at McDonald’s. We can argue about what is just and fair, but what exactly was the plan in those cases? Come here, and then demand to be paid more to afford the higher cost of living? This obviously doesn’t apply to all the workers, but to those it does, I have to scratch my head.

Most of the times I have had things not work out for me in life, it was because of a decision I made. Taking on student loans for a degree that “truly sparks your passion” with no real plan to pay for it is one of those decisions. As with any financial transaction, there has to be some tangible return on your investment. Otherwise, you are better off simply being a voracious reader at a public library.

Who pays the wage - MacDonald’s or the immigrant? That is the party responsible for making sure it’s a living wage. No excuses, no qualifications.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Please tell us, if you know, who is trying to cut to the chase, find the root problems and offer solutions. I agree that throwing money at the problem doesn’t solve anything, just as cutting taxes doesn’t benefit anyone much except for the multi-millionaires and billionaires. I hear about what nut cases the left are and what nut cases the right are. Maybe the socially conscious politicians on either side have some ideas to solve the problem of poverty without throwing money at it or at reasonable affordable cost but I haven’t heard anything come from them. Before you call me a left wing nut, I am neither right nor left, to me it is obvious that the only differences are the prejudices that they use to soothe their bases while their constituents, the ones they do things for, are the same on the right as on the left.

Making predictions is always risky but if something is not done soon I fear that poverty will get worse in the US, infrastructure will continue to crumble, inequality will continue to grow and the middle class will continue to shrink.

Since when did cutting people’s taxes not benefit the individual? I am not a millionaire, but would greatly benefit from the exorbitant tax rates I get hit with as an independent contractor.

The right has offered many solutions to combat the every growing poorer classes, and is shouted down at every turn. Health savings accounts are wildly popular, and now illegal under the ACA. School choice and vouchers programs would attack the problem of education early on and give most parents a choice, but because it doesn’t create the exact same scenario for 100% of the population, is shouted down for being unfair. Trying to solidify the black hole that is medicare is stopped before it ever gets voted on. Means testing was removed by this President against the wishes of the Republicans.

Any time a conservative brings up the destruction of the family, the dissolution of marriage, the importance of prayer in school, all things that any Catholic would acknowledge as good things to address, they get called whackos and people whine about the non-existent separation of Church and state. Many of the problems in this country could be fixed by returning to God in all facets of society, but if you mention that, you are called a right wing nut.

Many Republicans have called for the dissolution of numerous parts of the government to free up money for actually critical investments that could help the neediest among us, but smaller government is someone a bad thing. Programs like the keystone pipeline, which would lead to so many precious jobs, are shot down because apparently the left cares about the poor, just not as much as they do trees.

The list could go on and on. But if you agree that throwing money at the problem accomplishes nothing, why give any credit to the left? For they are then accomplishing nothing. No one should get credit for saying they want to help the poor, when in fact their actions do nothing.

 

[gnjsdad]

Here is the message, itself.

I did not see the words “salary”, “bonus”, “wage”, “pay”, etc. , discussed in it whatsoever.

In fact, the closest he came was here:
Globalization, as Benedict XVI pointed out, makes us neighbours, but does not make us brothers.[1] The many situations of inequality, poverty and injustice, are signs not only of a profound lack of fraternity, but also of the absence of a culture of solidarity. New ideologies, characterized by rampant individualism, egocentrism and materialistic consumerism, weaken social bonds, fuelling that “throw away” mentality which leads to contempt for, and the abandonment of, the weakest and those considered “useless”. In this way human coexistence increasingly tends to resemble a mere do ut des which is both pragmatic and selfish
.

Maybe somebody smarter than me can point out, from his own words, where the Pope mentioned salaries.

From the document…

One also sees the need for policies which can lighten an excessive imbalance between incomes. We must not forget the Church’s teaching on the so-called social mortgage, which holds that although it is lawful, as Saint Thomas Aquinas says, and indeed necessary ‘that people have ownership of goods’, insofar as their use is concerned, ‘they possess them as not just their own, but common to others as well, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as themselves’. (emphasis mine)

And…

*The grave financial and economic crises of the present time – which find their origin in the progressive distancing of man from God and from his neighbour, in the greedy pursuit of material goods on the one hand, and in the impoverishment of interpersonal and community relations on the other – *have pushed man to seek satisfaction, happiness and security in consumption and earnings out of all proportion to the principles of a sound economy. (emphasis mine)

Thus, the Pope did attack mega-salaries and the wealth gap just as the media reported.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I am confused by our Holy Pope Francis, children borne out wedlock will have a good chance of being poor ,Gay marriage, abortion and pornography are destroying our country. He said not to focus on only 2 issues abortion and homosexuality, is he not doing the same just focusing on capitalism? what about communism or the Christians being slaughtered in the Middle East?. I am going to confession Saturday, I am confused and sad with our Popes statements.

I believe the Pope has made statements on all of those issues, all in line with **traditional **Catholic teaching, but the American media is doing everything it can to exploit His Holiness as some avowed liberal to get Catholics to vote more progressive to advance the agenda the media and the far left want.

People are misreading the Pope left and right (literally) through their own narrow political lens.

It just goes to show how America and the West in general have become polarized.

 

[ishii]

This notion it somehow every homily about greed is directed at a CEO is nonsense. Reed is an emotional vice and has nothing to do with how much money you have. It has everything to do with how much you desire in an inordinate way and anyone can be guilty of that. Just look at the stampedes at Walmart when there’s a sale on Black Friday. I don’t think those are a bunch of high salaried CEOs trampling one another.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Thanks for the quote. What stands out to me is the “contempt for” the “weakest” and those considered “useless”. In the last year or two, it has hit me like a ton of bricks - this contempt of which the Pope speaks. The uncharitable attitude and frank insults directed at the poor have really been disturbing to me; people, even in the public arena, discussing the poor like the objects of their attacks cannot hear the condescending, dismissive narrative being used to blame them for their own poverty or disadvantage. What makes it even more disturbing is the deafening silence from those who are in a position to say “stop, this isn’t right”. Thank you Papa Francisco.

I think Happy Catholic makes a good point: the greed that the Pope refers to could well be aimed at the folks who stampede into Walmart on Black Friday (as opposed to those evil CEO’s). The problem with views of Seekerz, above is that it reduces what the Pope says to suit a partisan political agenda - which is always to criticize the motives and actions of conservatives.

Newsflash: greed can be in anyone - even the poor. Even those collecting entitlements. (particularly those who are able bodied but continue to collect those entitlements but think they are entitled so they don’t work). I have seen it all - I used to work in retail and I can tell you I saw greed among food stamp users regularly. And yes, greed can also exist among the wealthy, but not by definition.

Ishii

 

[frobert]

Since when did cutting people’s taxes not benefit the individual? I am not a millionaire, but would greatly benefit from the exorbitant tax rates I get hit with as an independent contractor.

The right has offered many solutions to combat the every growing poorer classes, and is shouted down at every turn. Health savings accounts are wildly popular, and now illegal under the ACA. School choice and vouchers programs would attack the problem of education early on and give most parents a choice, but because it doesn’t create the exact same scenario for 100% of the population, is shouted down for being unfair. Trying to solidify the black hole that is medicare is stopped before it ever gets voted on. Means testing was removed by this President against the wishes of the Republicans.

Any time a conservative brings up the destruction of the family, the dissolution of marriage, the importance of prayer in school, all things that any Catholic would acknowledge as good things to address, they get called whackos and people whine about the non-existent separation of Church and state. Many of the problems in this country could be fixed by returning to God in all facets of society, but if you mention that, you are called a right wing nut.

Many Republicans have called for the dissolution of numerous parts of the government to free up money for actually critical investments that could help the neediest among us, but smaller government is someone a bad thing. Programs like the keystone pipeline, which would lead to so many precious jobs, are shot down because apparently the left cares about the poor, just not as much as they do trees.

The list could go on and on. But if you agree that throwing money at the problem accomplishes nothing, why give any credit to the left? For they are then accomplishing nothing. No one should get credit for saying they want to help the poor, when in fact their actions do nothing.

I told you what I thought about the left as well as the right so don’t say I am for the left and against the right. I am against both of them

You told me what the right is against which I can hear on Fox news any night of the week. So you don’t think I am prejudiced I can hear similar tripe on MSNBC. You haven’t told me what positive steps are they or anyone taking. During 6yrs of the Bush years the right held both houses and did nothing, zilch nada to solve poverty. What they did do (in my opinion) is to drive inequality pretty darn high. Obama came in and with all his talk of change all he did was continue the Bush years in high gear and drove inequality to the highest it has ever been and for none of the left-wing programs did anything either. So don’t try to label me.

I am happy for you that you got a middle class tax cut. I am middle class too but my taxes went up but I do not grudge you your tax cut. Well over 70% of the population got 0 to a few dollars while the top 5% pocketed billions of dollars.

If the right came out and said we are going to cut X dept and the money we save we are going to give to innovative programs to cut poverty I would be 100% for it but I don’t hear them say that.

Here is an idea. We spend more on prisons in the US than on education. About 70% of prison sentences are drug related. Let’s legalize drugs and use the savings for some sensible programs to reduce poverty. Most of my career has been working with addictions. Several years ago I was against legalizing drugs but if money can be saved and used for a better cause then why not. One of my favorite Republicans was William Buckley who was for legalizing drugs well before we had anywhere near the problems we have now.

Don’t tell me what you are against tell me what you are for. Cutting programs to lower taxes won’t do much for the poor who don’t pay taxes to begin with. So what are you for?

 

[ishii]

I know there are college-educated people unemployed or underemployed today)…

That could be due to two factors:

One, they majored in some kind of useless liberal arts major that does not give them a skill that is in demand (atleast in the short term). Or, two: the economy is not robust because we have a president who has done nothing constructive to help the economy get up and running again after the recession. Instead he has focused his agenda on socializing medicine and kept the business sector guessing as to what might be on the horizon. Uncertainty regarding government policy is one of the worst things for business: who wants to invest in a climate of uncertainty? Had Romney been elected, I believe the economy would be doing better at this point.

Probably its a combination of both.