Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message

[stinkcat_14]

I don’t see any reason to argue with a study when you have no evidence to indicate the findings were not reflective of reality. It doesn’t take a study to demonstrate that poverty in America is based mainly on the failure to make decisions that would provide someone with a brighter future.

Which is of course why we need orphanages. For example, I know a young lady who was told by her father at age 16 that she needed to move out of the house because the father was selling the house and moving in with the new wife. He claimed that he would pay the rent for her, but that lasted a month. It is not surprising that she eventually had to drop out of school, because clearly eating is more important than education. Now, this person was poor, but not totally because of her own decisions.

As I’ve said, I’ve volunteered, been a board member, for numerous social services organizations, some religious, some secular. I have “met the poor” face to face. Almost invariably it’s same song, different verse. Single woman, multiple kids out of wedlock, no involvement much less financial support from baby daddy. Probably a lack of high school diploma or GED. Drugs and/or alcohol… It doesn’t matter if it’s homeless shelter, a drug treatment facility, a domestic violence facility, a corrections facility, a foster home, or children’s services. It’s usually the same story.

Which is why we as a society need orphanages. Some people ought not to be parents. You buy a car you cannot pay for it gets repossessed. The same thing should be true for kids.

And it has zero to do with what some CEO is earning. It’s the culture.

I never said anything about CEOs. On the other hand, the upper class culture that sends girls to the abortion clinic when they get pregnant is not a better culture.

 

[LisaA]

I honestly believe you did not understand one thing I wrote. I also believe that you truly believe what you wrote. So let’s agree to ignore each others posts.

Peace be with you.

I don’t ignore outright falsehoods being propagated, whether intentional or not. I addressed your points and your response is to say I didn’t understand which is often a euphamism for “you don’t agree with me.”

I addressed the false statements made and your misunderstanding of crony capitalism which is rampant in the Obama administration, even taking over your bete noir the Student Loan program. I completely understand what you are trying to do but I do not agree with your statements. I think you are incorrect.

Lisa

 

[frobert]

I don’t ignore outright falsehoods being propagated, whether intentional or not. I addressed your points and your response is to say I didn’t understand which is often a euphamism for “you don’t agree with me.”

I addressed the false statements made and your misunderstanding of crony capitalism which is rampant in the Obama administration, even taking over your bete noir the Student Loan program. I completely understand what you are trying to do but I do not agree with your statements. I think you are incorrect.

Lisa

Peace

 

[LisaA]

Which is of course why we need orphanages. For example, I know a young lady who was told by her father at age 16 that she needed to move out of the house because the father was selling the house and moving in with the new wife. He claimed that he would pay the rent for her, but that lasted a month. It is not surprising that she eventually had to drop out of school, because clearly eating is more important than education. Now, this person was poor, but not totally because of her own decisions.

Which is why we as a society need orphanages. Some people ought not to be parents. You buy a car you cannot pay for it gets repossessed. The same thing should be true for kids.

I never said anything about CEOs. On the other hand, the upper class culture that sends girls to the abortion clinic when they get pregnant is not a better culture.

I don’t know that orphanages are THE answer but they are one answer to irresponsible parents. When volunteering to advocate for children in the system I could see how everything was focused to the benefit of the adults rather than the children. Much time is spent, sometimes wasted, in trying to return children to an irresponsible and neglectful if not abusive parent when the child would likely be better off with a stable situation through a group home environment.

I wasn’t necessarily addressing your points when speaking of the disconnect between CEO salaries and the causes for poverty in America. As to upper class parents sending girls to abortion clinics, while I totally agree that is a horrible response to an unplanned pregnancy, the reality is that the majority of abortion clinics are in low income and minority areas and young women can get abortions even if the cannot pay…what do you think Planned Parenthood is doing with all of our tax dollars? Aside from that the cultural norm in some communities is the single mom with multiple children from multiple males. You do not see this phenomenon nearly as frequently in the upper middle and upper income communities. Having children outside of marriage is a fast road to nowhere…for the parent AND the child.

Lisa

 

[gnjsdad]

I don’t think you are correct regarding capitalism increasing the disparity between rich and poor.

I think the verdict of history is in on this one: wherever capitalism exists, income disparity exists. You can’t point to a society with a capitalist economy without a significant gap in wealth between rich and poor.

LisaA:

In countries where the economy is/was regulated there is a tiny elite and a huge group of those in poverty. Countries that were so, such as China, have seen a great increase in their standard of living due to removing the government stranglehold on the economy.

China went from a godless Marxist dialectical materialism to a godless captialist consumerist materialism. Both philosophies reject Christ, which is something I can say with confidence Pope Francis will have plenty more to say about.

China was successfully absorbed into the capitalist new world order beginning in 1979, when Margaret Thatcher persuaded Deng Tsiao Ping to adopt for his country the monetarist policies of Milton Friedman. Deng’s country was at the time economically exhausted by the Maoist Cultural Revolution, and it was extremely tempting for the Chinese, always superb at the art of currency manipulation, to lend a receptive ear to Friedman. The result: Ping empowered the party officials whose children became the first Chinese billionaires, who are the ones running the country now and who are growing immensely wealthy through stealing the labor of Chinese workers. Thus has it always been for captialism. But there could be trouble ahead for China; it is running out of cheap peasant labor, and whenever a capitalist system runs out of cheap labor, it runs into problems.

LisaA:

In contrast free market based countries like America have been characterized by the ability to transition between income levels. “Poor boy makes good” IS the American story. Many Americans can and have transitioned from lower income to upper income.

That is no longer the case. Upward mobility is easier in France than it is in America now.

LisaA:

Our ECONOMY isn’t sinful and disordered,

Our economy is godless, Lisa. It is a consumerist materialist creation in which Christ or His Church plays no part and would be welcome only insofar as His people can be persuaded to consume.

LisaA:

our people are (as are all people). We understand this sinful nature and try to fight it. But there are many who do not. It’s human nature and regulating the economy is not going to change human nature.

That all people are sinful is of course true. It is especally true of people running the economy.

LisaA:

Further and for about the tenth time, please show me how some CEO’s salary keeps an inner city single mother poor? What does one have to do with the other?

When the inner city mother is employed by the CEO, I can easily see it happening. I just read where the CEO of some large company makes $9,000 an hour. If someone with such a salary employs an inner city mother whose salary doesn’t come close to meeting daily living requirements, I’d say that is one factor that keeps her poor. Looked at from another angle, I think pnewton made an extremely cogent observation. The CEO with the $9,000/hr salary with struggling employees in poverty could very well be “looking up at Lazarus” after his particular judgement.

 

[shockerfan]

That is no longer the case. Upward mobility is easier in France than it is in America now.

What do you base this statement on? France has higher unemployment (11.1% vs 7.3% in the US) and lower participation in the workforce (55.9% vs 63.6% in the US)

 

[frobert]

China went from a godless Marxist dialectical materialism to a godless captialist consumerist materialism. Both philosophies reject Christ, which is something I can say with confidence Pope Francis will have plenty more to say about.

A minor quibble. China is not a capitalist country but rather a mercantilist country.

A simple comparison of the two: capitalism is an economic system whereas mercantilism is trading.

Ideally, free-market capitalism is based on free markets, private ownership of the means of production, and limited regulations and some government provided goods and services. At best the US has mixed capitalism which uses economic intervention in markets to correct market failures.

I believe that Pope Francis finds fault with the use of market corrections that benefit the few at the expense of the many.

 

[Dawnia]

Which is why we as a society need orphanages. Some people ought not to be parents. You buy a car you cannot pay for it gets repossessed. The same thing should be true for kids.

There is no note on children. God gives them to us free and clear.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There is no note on children. God gives them to us free and clear.

If you cannot pay for them, you have no right to them.

 

[Dawnia]

If you cannot pay for them, you have no right to them.

I guess if God wants to repossess them, then that’s his option.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I guess if God wants to repossess them, then that’s his option.

No, I am talking about the state. Tell me, why does a mother or father who will not provide food and shelter for their kids have a right to them?

 

[frobert]

No, I am talking about the state. Tell me, why does a mother or father who will not provide food and shelter for their kids have a right to them?

Regardless of the worthiness and sins of the parents the country, church and community all have a vested interest in the child. Pope Francis may be reminding us that at least in some cases we neglect our interest and our duty.

 

[LisaA]

I

When the inner city mother is employed by the CEO, I can easily see it happening. I just read where the CEO of some large company makes $9,000 an hour. If someone with such a salary employs an inner city mother whose salary doesn’t come close to meeting daily living requirements, I’d say that is one factor that keeps her poor. Looked at from another angle, I think pnewton made an extremely cogent observation. The CEO with the $9,000/hr salary with struggling employees in poverty could very well be “looking up at Lazarus” after his particular judgement.

Others have responded to your impassioned statements regarding the economy. I have said numerous times that I wish our country were run within Catholic Social Teaching boundaries. I think that would create a far more just society than our current dog’s breakfast mash of too many needless regulations, crony capitalism and government created dependency. Further those “running” the economy (and who would that be?) are not nearly as sinful as those merchants of death promoting abortion, exploitation of children in sexual slavery, porn, drugs…the list goes on. That some CEO or IMO worse yet some athlete or celebrity makes billions of dollars doesn’t result in dead babies, drug addiction or sexual depravity.

With regard to your completely unrealistic example above, the point is that the single mother living on government programs is NOT working, probably does not have marketable skills or education, may not have the slightest interest in supporting herself. Again her poor decisions, maybe a legacy from her mother and her mother or the poor decisions of the drug dealer on the corner or the addict in the doorway have ZERO to do with what a CEO or Tom Brady or Bill Gates earns.

If we want to reduce poverty levels we have to change the culture that pushes, allows or even forces people into these poor decisions. Taking away Jeff Bezos’ salary does not change the trajectory of these people’s lives.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

A minor quibble. China is not a capitalist country but rather a mercantilist country.

A simple comparison of the two: capitalism is an economic system whereas mercantilism is trading.

Ideally, free-market capitalism is based on free markets, private ownership of the means of production, and limited regulations and some government provided goods and services. At best the US has mixed capitalism which uses economic intervention in markets to correct market failures.

I believe that Pope Francis finds fault with the use of market corrections that benefit the few at the expense of the many.

Be still my beating heart frobert, we are in complete agreement

Lisa

 

[Dawnia]

No, I am talking about the state. Tell me, why does a mother or father who will not provide food and shelter for their kids have a right to them?

In the case a parent refuses to care for their child, then the state should not interfer if the parents want to give up the child. However, children should NEVER be ripped away from their families over something as stupid as lack of money. The cost to society of all of those damaged kids would be far greater than the couple of bucks it takes to help the family out.

 

[frobert]

In the case a parent refuses to care for their child, then the state should not interfer if the parents want to give up the child.

Please do not assume that I am advocating any particular course of action but what should the state do, if anything, when parents refuse to care for their children but do not want to give them up?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Again her poor decisions, maybe a legacy from her mother and her mother or the poor decisions of the drug dealer on the corner or the addict in the doorway have ZERO to do with what a CEO or Tom Brady or Bill Gates earns.

This is true, but that doesn’t mean that CEO salaries are not a moral issue, because they are a particularly interesting moral issue. For the small business owner, who owns the whole business, the owner’s income is not particularly interesting from a moral standpoint as long as the owner is acting in a moral fashion.

However, when it comes to corporate executives another moral issue comes into play, which is known as the agency problem.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem

The basic problem is, the CEO is there to serve the shareholders but because of information problems the CEO has an incentive to serve himself.

It gets worse with crony capitalism. For example, did Haliburtan hire Dick Cheney because of his managerial expertise, or because of his connections?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think the verdict of history is in on this one: wherever capitalism exists, income disparity exists. You can’t point to a society with a capitalist economy without a significant gap in wealth between rich and poor.

Why is that bad?

If capitalism increases the income of the rich more than it does the income of the poor then the gap increases while improving the income of the poor.

By contrast, efforts to close the income gap inevitably result in worse conditions for the poor (and the rich). The income gap can be closed if you are willing to inflict misery upon everyone. Communism was the purest example of this.

Our economy is godless, Lisa. It is a consumerist materialist creation in which Christ or His Church plays no part and would be welcome only insofar as His people can be persuaded to consume.

When did it become a sin for people to provide goods and services to their fellow man?

It is a fact of history that capitalism arose in Christendom, largely invented in monestaries, and could not have arisen elsewhere. It remains to be seen if nonChristian societies can emulate Christian societies or if post-Christian societies can maintain it.

 

[LisaA]

This is true, but that doesn’t mean that CEO salaries are not a moral issue, because they are a particularly interesting moral issue. For the small business owner, who owns the whole business, the owner’s income is not particularly interesting from a moral standpoint as long as the owner is acting in a moral fashion.

However, when it comes to corporate executives another moral issue comes into play, which is known as the agency problem.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem

The basic problem is, the CEO is there to serve the shareholders but because of information problems the CEO has an incentive to serve himself.

It gets worse with crony capitalism. For example, did Haliburtan hire Dick Cheney because of his managerial expertise, or because of his connections?

stinkcat you had me until you pulled out the Haliburton meme. Haven’t you heard it’s not what you know but who you know that counts? MANY people are hired because of their connections. That being said, I don’t know the inner workings of Haliburton and neither do you. If you are a shareholder you have the right to speak up and that’s one way of keeping the CEO focused on shareholders’ success or failure. Poor performances and out they go just as we saw the Lululemon CEO ousted recently. But again, we are talking about a handful of individuals in a country with 300,000,000 people. Do you have the same resentment of baseball players or rap “singers?” People earn what the market will bear so to speak. There are only a few Michael Jordan’s out there and only a few Steve Jobs…maybe only one!

But please tell me what the CEO of a public company’s salary, however ridiculous has to do with the causes of poverty in America? Given the Church’s strong support of families, of the value of work, of the inherent dignity of every person, and consistent life ethic, I suspect there is far more concern by the Holy Father about our broken culture of death than whether someone is paid more than we think he merits.

Focus on the REAL problems, don’t tilt at windmills

Lisa

 

[Dawnia]

Please do not assume that I am advocating any particular course of action but what should the state do, if anything, when parents refuse to care for their children but do not want to give them up?

I have no problem with the state stepping in when it is necessary to protect the safety of the child in the cases of abuse or neglect.

I’ve been involved with quite a few cases like this. Most of the time it is due to addictions. Rarely do the parents get the children back. Drugs/alcohol/boyfriends end up being more important to them than their kids. The sad part is the children end up with some severe issues, because even in cases of great harm, they have attachment to the parents. It doesn’t seem to matter how great the family is that took the kids in, they still end up following the path of their parents. Some of the kids go on to have their own children removed and so on.