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Laurent_LUG
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Of course , killing someone is stupid !!
I would never approve doing something like that !!
Out of Self-defense that’s something else !!
But fine , I don’t preach death , and never will !!
We must respect life and its’ living creatures !!
Life is something nice , sunny & good
Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), december 26, 2008
I would never approve doing something like that !!
Out of Self-defense that’s something else !!
But fine , I don’t preach death , and never will !!
We must respect life and its’ living creatures !!
Life is something nice , sunny & good
Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), december 26, 2008
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JReducation
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A lot is going to depend on how the Vocation Directors for the diocese or the religious communities do their job and how strict the bishop or major religious superior wants to applyt ther term “deeply seated.”
I have more contact with religious communities than with diocesan seminaries. I can’t speak to what bishops are asking diocesan recruiters to do or how to interpret the term. I know that religious communities are more interested in the celibacy. There is a good reason for this too.
Religious men do not live as isolated as secular priests do. Religious usually live in fraternities where there is a family life. This is not usually the case with secular priests. Many secular priests live alone. In many secular parishes and ministries there is one priest.
Communities that place a large emphasis on fraternal life do not assign their men to live alone. They live in threes or more. Given the quality of their community life, there is a much lower sense of isolation, which is often a major trigger in sexual activity, not just homosexual activity. The human person tends to look for intimacy and tribal living.
JR
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eichenb2
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Why is it necessary for a person who feel an attraction for the same sex a homosexual. WE ARE NOT OUR ACTIONS!!!
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JReducation
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eichenb2
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I do not define myself as a heterosexual! It is a description of one aspect of me. Catholics who feel a lustful attraction to people of the same sex should stop buying into the definitions of the culture at-large. It is HOMOSEXUAL acts that are the problem and if you don’t due them (and a Catholic should not do them, as it is a mortal sin), then you are not a homosexual! This person is someone who feels particular feelings. I have a lustful desire for intimacy with an number of beautiful ladies that I see on the streetI’m sorry, I’m not understanding you.
JR
. This is not, though, my main defining characteristic.
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WesleyF
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Keep up the good work, Pope Benedict!
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cristininha
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Have you ever read about the history of Pope Alexander VI ?Because a Pope would never call for the killing of people. It was a rude question…especially on Christmas Day.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI
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JReducation
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The Church certainly does not ask us to define ourselves by our inclinations. However, when writing for the general public, she will often use the language of social science to make herself understood. This often makes some of her writings in morality a little difficult to understand, because social science cannot do justice to the beauty of theological thought. Nonetheless, the language of theology is not often clearly understood by the non-theologian. Many people find it to be vague. In reality it is very abstract.I do not define myself as a heterosexual! It is a description of one aspect of me. Catholics who feel a lustful attraction to people of the same sex should stop buying into the definitions of the culture at-large. It is HOMOSEXUAL acts that are the problem and if you don’t due them (and a Catholic should not do them, as it is a mortal sin), then you are not a homosexual! This person is someone who feels particular feelings. I have a lustful desire for intimacy with an number of beautiful ladies that I see on the street
It really isn’t vague at all, but it is not the language that we use in our daily lives or that we use in religious education and catechesis. From personal experience, I can tell you that I believed that I understood the language of theology until I set out to get an eccessial degree in it. The minute that they required that we do four years of philosophy first, then four years of theology and two more for specialization, I was floored. The language was much more complex than I thought before. Every word has so many possible nuances and used in so many different ways by different schools of theology and different branches of theology.
Just a simple example, the word “morality” is not used in mystical theology. Morality is a term that Mystical Theologians avoid because it is very broad and Mystical Theology is concerned with the life of virtue and man’s intimate relationship with God.
My point is that when we read what the press says the Pope said, we have to make sure that the reporter understands the language that he or she is paraphrasing and understands the theological context in which it’s used.
In the case of this particular talk that the Pope gave, I heard the tapes of the talk. They were played on EWTN the other day. The talk was not a criticism of homosexuals or an identification of people by their sexual orientation.
The talk was about creation, the role gender in creation, the diminishing and blurred lines that the gay movement has brought to the table and the importance of preserving the clarity of sexual genders, the Divine Plan for human sexuality and how homosexuality does not enter into the Divine Plan. In the same talk the Holy Father said that we work to protect and save the planet and asked a rhetorical question, whether or not humans did not deserve the same attention or better. He spoke of a Human Ecology to address man’s self destruction by his obfuscation of the genders.
It was more of a theological and a pastoral statement than a criticism. In essence, he said that there is a sin that results not only from sexual orientation, but worse, from the fact that our society has blurred the roles and Divine end of gender. It is necessary that we preserve a clear perspective of the role of gender in God’s work of Creation.
Listening to it gives you a different perspective than reading a report. The most beautiful part of it is that there is no condemnation of any group of persons. There is an attempt to protect humanity from a very real weakness. We have watered down the role of the genders in the act of creation. In our attempt to equalize the genders, society has often confused the current generation of people who experience same sex attractions. The message that they receive from society is that these attractions lead to normal actions, because gender is only a social convention, but not really important to human existence for anything other than reproduction. Which is contrary to Christian Anthropology and Human Ecology.
This mitigation of the significance of gender in Creation sends a very wrong message to persons who struggle with sexual orientation. It oversimplifies sexual activity to the point that people become confused and angry, when someone says that such activity is contrary to moral truth.
I hope this helps some people.
JR
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eichenb2
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In my opinion, the Church does need to be more active at defining the framework for these discussions. If it means clarifying theological language for the non-Christian public, then so be it. When the liar frames the discussion, the truthful will find it more difficult to make his point.
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JReducation
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The problem here is not simply the liar framing the discussion. It is also a matter of learning the language of theology and understanding that theology is not always as concrete as math, because it is dealing with subjects that are often very complex.
We also have to make sure that we understand what is being said to all of us, not just pick up a word or two and run with it. In this case, people are running with the word homosexual and reading all kinds of things into the statement and missing the broad spiritual message that speaks to all of us, regardless of our sexual orientation.
The result is that some feel that they are targeted because of their homosexual orientation and others feel that they are vindicated in their cold and brash treatment of people with said orientation. Too many people are failing to pick up that the message applies to all of us and is about the sacredness of the human creature and the sacred role of gender in creation.
JR
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eichenb2
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This is fine example. The pro-homosexual promotes their stance to the exclusion of most everything else. Yet, if the Church were to address the UNNATURALNESS and DISORDEREDNESS of homosexual attraction directly, are you suggesting that this would targeting people with these tendencies??? Are we not to target adultery as wrong, so adulterers do not feel targeted??? I am not proposing that people brazenly persecute these people. However, to stand by as countries of the world attempt to enact laws that give people with homosexual lust in their heart a special status is another matter. I think the state has a God given right to punish homosexual ACTIVITY, just as they have a right to punish sexual relations with animals. No one is suggesting that laws be enacted that to punish homosexual tendencies. The bottom is that you are arguing within their framework. Oh that God would bring another St. Thomas to defend us!The result is that some feel that they are targeted because of their homosexual orientation and others feel that they are vindicated in their cold and brash treatment of people with said orientation. Too many people are failing to pick up that the message applies to all of us and is about the sacredness of the human creature and the sacred role of gender in creation.
JR
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JReducation
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I’m not arguing with anyone’s framework. I’m just stating the obvious. People are missing the broader message of the Holy Father.This is fine example. The pro-homosexual promotes their stance to the exclusion of most everything else. Yet, if the Church were to address the UNNATURALNESS and DISORDEREDNESS of homosexual attraction directly, are you suggesting that this would targeting people with these tendencies??? Are we not to target adultery as wrong, so adulterers do not feel targeted??? I am not proposing that people brazenly persecute these people. However, to stand by as countries of the world attempt to enact laws that give people with homosexual lust in their heart a special status is another matter. I think the state has a God given right to punish homosexual ACTIVITY, just as they have a right to punish sexual relations with animals. No one is suggesting that laws be enacted that to punish homosexual tendencies. The bottom is that you are arguing within their framework. Oh that God would bring another St. Thomas to defend us!
Concerning punishing homosexual behaviour, the Holy See made the Catholic Church’s position very clear last week. His Holiness sent a message to the nations of the world the homosexual activity and homosexuality must be dicriminalized, because it violates the moral law.
He explained that because homosexual acts are sin, to treat them as a crime is immoral. If you scroll back, Robert posted the closing paragraph of the Church’s message to the nations of the world on this.
As you can see, the Church is maintaining a blanced approach. Homosexual acts are sinful, but they are not criminal and homosexual people may not be treated as such. On the other hand, homosexual people must also understand the proper role of gender in the Divine act of creation. That’s the entire picture as I understand it.
St.Thomas was one of the greatest minds of the Church, but not the only one. There are also St. Bonaventure, St. Augustine, Bl. Duns Scotus, St. Lawrence of Brindisi, Meister Eckhart, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena, and more.
Our Holy Father happens to be a student of St. Augustine and St. Bonaventure. He uses an Augustinian and Franciscan framework. It still gets us to the same place that a Thomistic framework would, via a different route. While we have this pope who is an Augustinian and Franciscan thinker, we’re going to have to accommodate to that manner of doing theology. That does not do any injustice to the Church or to St. Thomas.
JR
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eichenb2
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I could not disagree with this statement more!!! If that is the Catholic Church’s stance, I may not become Catholic! I am interested, though. Can a state punish adulterers?Homosexual acts are sinful, but they are not criminal and homosexual people may not be treated as such.
JR
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RobertLGarrett
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Did the Pope refer to “homosexual people” or people with homosexual desires. I ask, because I think it is an important distinction. If you identify people as “homosexual” or “gay” then you are classifying them as different than the rest of us.I’m not arguing with anyone’s framework. I’m just stating the obvious. People are missing the broader message of the Holy Father.
Concerning punishing homosexual behaviour, the Holy See made the Catholic Church’s position very clear last week. His Holiness sent a message to the nations of the world the homosexual activity and homosexuality must be dicriminalized, because it violates the moral law.
He explained that because homosexual acts are sin, to treat them as a crime is immoral. If you scroll back, Robert posted the closing paragraph of the Church’s message to the nations of the world on this.
As you can see, the Church is maintaining a blanced approach. Homosexual acts are sinful, but they are not criminal and** homosexual people **may not be treated as such. On the other hand, homosexual people must also understand the proper role of gender in the Divine act of creation. That’s the entire picture as I understand it.
JR
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eichenb2
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WOW! That is a huge distinction, because I agree that there should not be a witch-hunt for people with homosexual feelings. If the Papa said this, I will be overjoyed. If he said that laws against homosexual ACTIVITY were wronged, I will be
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JReducation
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The Holy Father spoke of decriminalizing homosexual activity. But if you’re asking me about his speech to the Pontifical household, he spoke of homosexual behaviour. He also spoke of people with homosexual tendencies being more confused by the obfuscation (my term) of gender. The address was in Italian and the translation was difficult to remember, so I just listened to the Italian.
If you want to see the Church’s official ministry to people with homosexual orientation, you may want to explore this sight. This is an official ministry of the Catholic Church approved by the Sacred Congregation for the Family.
couragerc.net/index.htm
It makes the Catholic approach clearer and shows how all of us can move forward in our life of faith while dealing with the reality of homosexuality and homosexual behaviour, whether one is homosexual or heterosexual, the ministry is for everyone who is interested in learning and helping.
Fraternally,
JR
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JReducation
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He specifically said that the Church calls for an end to laws that penalize homosexual activity. Scroll back and look for the citation that Robert put on the thread. I can’t give you the site, because I didn’t get it online. I got it from our diocesan newspaper. But Robert found it online.WOW! That is a huge distinction, because I agree that there should not be a witch-hunt for people with homosexual feelings. If the Papa said this, I will be overjoyed. If he said that laws against homosexual ACTIVITY were wronged, I will be
I can understand what the Holy Father is talking about. There are nations where homosexual behaviour is treated as criminal behaviour. In Nazi Germany Hitler killed more than one million homosexuals. Today, the Muslims kill and imprison homosexuals, so do many Communist countries. Some countries subject them to public humiliation and public beatings. In the USA we have horrible stories by inmates who were arrested under sodomy laws.
This is not the kind of behaviour that the Church can protect as a God-given right of the State. It really presents a balanced pastoral and moral view. The activity is sinful, but society does not have a right to penalize it.
JR
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rjs1
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It is not off the topic because I have read of a number of concerned Catholic Canadians who are seriously afraid that their country’s laws are virtually going to outlaw any priest or minister from preaching against homosexuality.This confirms nothing and we have gotten of topic. Not only that, we are now on the verge of shifting in pointing the finger at an entire nation.
The Church is not here to point the finger at individuals or nations. She has been given to us to point the finger at virtue and to point the way to spiritual union with the Divine. She points out sin as a means of pointing to salvation, not as a means of devaluating an entire group of people, their culture, their faith and their moral values.
Fraternally,
JR
I have every right to comment when a country’s laws are working against the teaching of God’s truth.
God has most ceratinly has judged entire countries as well as individuals. The Scriptures have numerous accounts of this.
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JReducation
Guest
But the topic of this thread is the content of the Holy Father’s Christmas talk to the Apostolic household.
JR
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