Pope Benedict criticizes homosexual behavior

[eichenb2]

I looked back a couple of pages, and I see primarily rants. If you have a question, ask it. I will be glad to answer it the best I can. However, if you seriously think that you are more grounded in the Bible, Church Tradition and Natural Law, then I doubt that you will accept anything that disagrees with you. You are all-knowing…

Why would the Church attempt to suggest that governments cannot punish for Sodomy??? That does not make any sense! Can a nation pass a law to prosecute child molestation, rape, or adultery??? By the way, it is not just me that is grounded. The documents (Bible, Catechism, Canon Law, etc are open and available to all! Please do not continue to be evasive. Finally, I forgive you again for your condenscending attitude.

 

[eichenb2]

I looked back a couple of pages, and I see primarily rants. If you have a question, ask it. I will be glad to answer it the best I can. However, if you seriously think that you are more grounded in the Bible, Church Tradition and Natural Law, then I doubt that you will accept anything that disagrees with you. You are all-knowing…

Also, thank you for such charity to a potential Catholic .

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Why would the Church attempt to suggest that governments cannot punish for Sodomy??? That does not make any sense! Can a nation pass a law to prosecute child molestation, rape, or adultery??? By the way, it is not just me that is grounded. The documents (Bible, Catechism, Canon Law, etc are open and available to all! Please do not continue to be evasive. Finally, I forgive you again for your condenscending attitude.

Not all sin is criminal. Child molestation and rape are criminal. Masturbation, adultery, fornication, taking the Lord’s name in vain, missing Mass on Sunday…to name a few…are not. What the Holy Father is saying is that sodomy is in the same arena.

eichenb2:

Also, thank you for such charity to a potential Catholic.

Yes, it is quite uncharitable for me to point out your incredibly inflated sense of pride. My apologies. If you are looking for Truth, that won’t matter. If you are looking to be correct however…

 

[eichenb2]

Not all sin is criminal. Child molestation and rape are criminal. Masturbation, adultery, fornication, taking the Lord’s name in vain, missing Mass on Sunday…to name a few…are not. What the Holy Father is saying is that sodomy is in the same arena.

Yes, it is quite uncharitable for me to point out your incredibly inflated sense of pride. My apologies. If you are looking for Truth, that won’t matter. If you are looking to be correct however…

Great. Thank you. I believe that the inability to identify the destructive nature of the pro-homosexual political movement is a HUGE blind-spot in Catholic moral teaching and, in the future, will have dire consequences for the Church. Unless, God revitilizes the intellectual dynamism of the Church, by means of a Aquinas-like thought. Of course, to you, I am a moron, but this is my opinion. I do not take my responsibilities or commitments lightly, and therefore am doing extensive research. I will not, as you imply, just believe without deep inspection. If I submit to the Church it will not be because of a cushy, emotional feeling of truth. Barring any supernatural intercessions, I will use the reasoning capability that God gave me to attempt to understand the teachings of the Church. The impetus for my rants has been a deep desire to work the faith out. I hope you understand.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Great. Thank you. **I believe that the inability to identify the destructive nature of the pro-homosexual political movement is a HUGE blind-spot in Catholic moral teaching **and, in the future, will have dire consequences for the Church. Unless, God revitilizes the intellectual dynamism of the Church, by means of a Aquinas-like thought. Of course, to you, I am a moron, but this is my opinion. I do not take my responsibilities or commitments lightly, and therefore am doing extensive research. I will not, as you imply, just believe without deep inspection. If I submit to the Church it will not be because of a cushy, emotional feeling of truth. Barring any supernatural intercessions, I will use the reasoning capability that God gave me to attempt to understand the teachings of the Church. The impetus for my rants has been a deep desire to work the faith out. I hope you understand.

I do understand, and I never said you were a moron. You are obviously very smart…I just think you may believe you are smarter than others, though you may not be. IOW…a bit overconfident in yourself.

In fact, your bolded statement above shows that you totally missed the central message of the Pope’s statement in this thread. You are hung up on the criminalization of sodomy and missed his larger point.

Since you have a deep desire to understand, I think a great place to start would be to read the works of the Pope whom you disagree with.
amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_1_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=joseph+ratzinger+pope+benedict+xvi&sprefix=Joseph+Rat

I confess that I probably haven’t read as much as you, but Pope Benedict XVI (formerly Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) is a scholar. Since your “personal views are** solidly grounded** in the Bible, Church Tradition, and Natural Law,” and you disagree with his recent statement, it would make sense for you to read what he has written. After you’ve read his books, perhaps you will understand his wisdom on the subject.

BTW…the previous Pope was no slouch either…
amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=John+Paul+II&x=12&y=8

I hope they can help you come to the Truth.

Pax Christi,
Robert

 

[Viki63]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Why would the Church attempt to suggest that governments cannot punish for Sodomy??? That does not make any sense! .

I am not at all sure. but what springs to mind is that governments tend to get carried away. There are governments today that stone women to death for adultery; there was a recent case where they were waiting for the woman to give birth so she could be executed.
So perhaps the church’s thinking is that sodomy is not a criminal act, it’s similar to fornication, and that allowing governments to prosecute people for this would open the door to many miscarriages of justice – neighbors spying on neighbors, false testimonies,etc, and give government more power than it should have.

 

[wynnejj]

Why would the Church attempt to suggest that governments cannot punish for Sodomy??? That does not make any sense! Can a nation pass a law to prosecute child molestation, rape, or adultery??? By the way, it is not just me that is grounded. The documents (Bible, Catechism, Canon Law, etc are open and available to all! Please do not continue to be evasive. Finally, I forgive you again for your condenscending attitude.

The examples you cite all involve an unwilling victim. With sodomy there is no unwilling victim, unless it is forced sex.

Sodomites are virtually engaging in mutual self-abuse. If Catholicism were to promote enforcement of laws against sodomy, it would have to promote enforcement of laws against self-abuse and contraception by its own standards. You’d lock up the majority of teenagers and married couples in the world. Proving sodomy would be nearly impossible without invasion of privacy in the home. After all, in effect they are just same-sex roommates.

It seems to me that the proper concern for Catholic involvement in promoting necessary laws is to ensure the securities of religious freedom, the individual’s rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness from attack or oppression by others.

There are aspects of the gay rights movement that do indeed affect the rights of others - that have innocent victims. Adoption by same-sex couples. Any teaching agendas that instruct kids to embrace alternative lifestyles as morally OK.

 

[Elizabeth502]

So, what’s the big deal then? Gay sex is already legal, and it’s already OK for so many families. Those who don’t think it’s OK should just not practice it and let the ones who practice it do as they wish. The legality of the matter is related to the protection of homosexual people from unjust prejudice and discrimination. No one is forcing people to be gay or to engage in homosexual sex. That would be wrong. But everyone must respect gay people and value their participation in society.

Cristin, I haven’t looked through everyone’s responses here, in depth. I’ll just state my own thinking. (And since this was only a papal address, we’re not bound to be in 100% agreement with those comments, as yet.)

Do I believe the Church is justified in requiring Catholics to refrain from gay sex? Yes, naturally.
Do I believe that the Pope is justified in seeking to protect/uphold the man/woman model as the normative model? Yes.
Otherwise, referring strictly to gay sex between consenting adults, I think it is not wise for religious officials even to interfere in otherwise (non-sexually) healthy relationships between consenting adults. I also think it’s a little bit of a waste of time. While I personally believe that eventually the percentage of people claiming to be “born gay” will indicate a much smaller percentage than those who currently maintain that, I also believe there may always be a core of unalterably inclined individuals, from birth. I certainly have met some of those in my life.

If a person is not Catholic, it is really none of my business – and it is a form of persecution – for me personally to harass them or denounce them for loving someone of the same sex, including physically loving them, provided the age and consensual elements are there. OTOH, gay marriage is a different issue: that involves possibly third, dependent parties (as yet to be born, as yet to be adopted, children). I very much insist that the State has an interest in who marries whom. (But this thread is not about that.) Additionally, other issues that spring from gay sex may also be a legitimate concern (of Catholics, or of anyone): issues like AIDS and AIDS-related behavior (the bathhouses years ago in SF, things like that). Anything that affects the public at large is a legitimate concern.

 

[pathia]

That’s the mantra: Hey. What’s the big deal?

The Pope is addressing the legal attempts to make gay sex not only legal but OK, and tells us why it’s a bad idea. I know gay people and whatever they do in the privacy of their homes is up to them but to legalize it and force it onto to people as OK and normal, once again, the Pope tells us why that’s a bad idea.

Peace,
Ed

So it should be OK for cops to break into a household and arrest the people inside for sodomy with no other reason other than to crack down on gays?

That’s what led to the overturn of sodomy laws by the SCOTUS.

 

[edwest2]

You are bringing up a “what if” that has no bearing on the subject, namely, what the Pope and the Church is saying about homosexual behavior. If you want to discuss sodomy laws, that would be another thread.

Peace,
Ed