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ringil
Guest
OK sorry.
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Lapey
Guest
No problem, sometimes I tend to type faster than my brain works, so I had to go back and read it again myself!
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ProVobis
Guest
Yes, but Pope Benedict’s policy was ZERO tolerance and much of it was directed at the seminary level. I think we’re starting to see that the Pope was indeed serious.
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ProVobis
Guest
Don’t know. Are these maybe the dates where alleged abuses occurred?
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Darryl1958
Guest
All it took was one priest to abuse 200 deaf patients. Even a small number in such an incredibly important position of responsibility and trust can do a lot of damage.
There are two facets to the problem, both equally serious.
One is the predatory priests, and the other is the permissive culture that enables and even covers for these priests. The priesthood is a male culture. It is absolutely essential therefore that the culture is one of chastity, with zero tolerance to the culture of permissiveness that provides a bathhouse environment where the predators have been able to thrive with impunity.
Pope BenedictXVI may have not won any popularity contests, and everything possible was thrown at him as he went about his business of shutting the bathhouse culture of the seminaries down, but it looks like his history is being written as the pope with enough ice in his veins to shut things down.
400 is just a drop in the bucket. Catholics can only hope that the enabling bishops and higher -ups will also be weeded out and removed from their places of trust and authority.
Many within the Church and on the outside are critical of the priesthood and the authority that is given to this office. I myself have been given to such criticisms on occasion. In any case, at this point in time, the theology for the status quo is solid. That being the case, given the amount of trust and authority bestowed upon the Catholic priesthood, even one is too many.
Zero tolerance is absolutely essential therefore.
There are two facets to the problem, both equally serious.
One is the predatory priests, and the other is the permissive culture that enables and even covers for these priests. The priesthood is a male culture. It is absolutely essential therefore that the culture is one of chastity, with zero tolerance to the culture of permissiveness that provides a bathhouse environment where the predators have been able to thrive with impunity.
Pope BenedictXVI may have not won any popularity contests, and everything possible was thrown at him as he went about his business of shutting the bathhouse culture of the seminaries down, but it looks like his history is being written as the pope with enough ice in his veins to shut things down.
400 is just a drop in the bucket. Catholics can only hope that the enabling bishops and higher -ups will also be weeded out and removed from their places of trust and authority.
Many within the Church and on the outside are critical of the priesthood and the authority that is given to this office. I myself have been given to such criticisms on occasion. In any case, at this point in time, the theology for the status quo is solid. That being the case, given the amount of trust and authority bestowed upon the Catholic priesthood, even one is too many.
Zero tolerance is absolutely essential therefore.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I believe “correction” was offered by all parties.
You state emphatically that it is not true. How do you know? Is it not possible that my opinion is valid? That my inference is correct? We’d like to think the best of people, but many times we are disappointed. And certainly the Church—when it comes to child abuse in its ranks—has disappointed us before.
Yes, I do believe that you are angry. No one likes the thought of our Church being the home of villainous child molesters. But the truth is very difficult to swallow. We’re shocked, upset and angry. We don’t know where we should be directing our feelings; after all, we don’t know the real offenders. I just happened to be around for a target. I can understand that.
Yes, the majority of priests are good, no doubt, and only a small fraction are evil. But I’d like to make more of you understand the big picture. The Church is enormous. A small fraction of “enormous” is therefore a large number. I consider 400 defrocked priests to be an outrageous number. These are 400 men whom the Church knows definitely to have committed offenses against God’s little ones. How many more offenders are there for whom the Church cannot yet definitively say are guilty of abuse? This is infinitely frightening to me, as I’m sure it must be for you. Where we differ is how the Church is dealing with this crisis. I, and others, notably the members of SNAP, believe that she is doing a poor job. The two points of weakness are as I mentioned above, in my first post on this thread. IMHO, she must strongly encourage victims to notify law enforcement first, with no hesitation. She also must vigorously deliver to secular authorities not only those members of the Church responsible for abuse itself, but also those responsible for shielding the abusers from just punishments. The one recent example of the failure to do such things was the release of Monsignor William Lynn. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia put up his bail. If you or I had committed a wrong to a neighbor, we would be advised to confess, and to right the wrong, accepting all consequences of committing the sin in the first place. This Archdiocese is not following its own advice to sinners. Can you see how people get the impression that the Catholic Church is not doing all it can?
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ProVobis
Guest
I would hope by now parents have taught their kids what abuse actually is. It seems many didn’t realize the abuse until well into their adulthood, having trusted their priests (or nuns, for that matter) to always be in the right. Can occur almost anywhere, sacristy, confessional, locker room, bathroom, and public shower seem to have been the frequent environment, from the reports I’ve heard. And one priest I personally know of, downplayed the acts in his testimony to a reporter but didn’t deny them either.
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Lapey
Guest
It is obvious to me you have been hurt by the Church and/or Her ministers, for that I sincerely apologize and wish you well.
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pnewton
Guest
This is exactly why I said the Church will never win. If the pope removes these people, it is outrageous. If he doesn’t it is outrageous. These 400 were defrocked for actions committed over the past four decades, not for a problem that existed at one point in time.
SNAP is a pool of anti-Catholic sentiment, devoid of logic, and impossible to please.
The Church does encourage reporting. Anyone who has gone through training knows that the mandatory reporting laws are studied and emphasized.
Sin? As we can not impute moral judgment due God alone, and lack both his omniscience and the ability to read minds, I question your labeling of him as a sinner. He did not abuse children. That has not been alleged. Whether his action were immoral are not for you to say, as per the words of Jesus, warning against judging others.
Now you can say that it is immoral to act to protect children, if one knows such action is necessary, but you do not know that. As to him being released, I would like to point out that it is the justice system, not the Church that vacated his sentence. A bail was set out of proportion with the accusation so the AB acted out of justice, something SNAP says they believe in, unless it is a priest that needs justice.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I don’t think that the Church is being unfairly characterized. And what the heck difference does it make when the abuse happened? It happened. Isn’t that bad enough?
That’s your argument?
The day that shielding child molesters becomes acceptable, i.e. not sinful, in the Church’s eyes, is the first day of her demise. I have been told time and time and time again on CAF that we can judge based on someone’s actions. For example, I have lost count of how many times posters have called homosexuals “sinners” because they engage in homosexual sex. Why the double standard for priests? Lynn was judged to have covered up abuse by a jury of his peers. Tell me that is not a sin. He was only released because of a legal loophole. He was not judged to be innocent by any means.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
You owe me no apology. I have not been personally injured by child molesters, but I like to think that I can sympathize with their victims.
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pnewton
Guest
The Church actually goes further than shielding and grants forgiveness to child molesters, along with all other sinners. The sinful act would be failing to protect other children from a dangerous child molester, when one was aware of the danger and had the ability to act. Of course that is sinful. What is not know is whether Lynn did this, or not. The thing is, Msgr. Lynn did take action by sending the priest (Avery) for treatment and then relied on the result of professionals that treated him. This was in the 1990’s. Lynn was wrong to do so, but only sinfully wrong if he knew Avery to still be dangerous.
He was not released because of a loophole. The law he was convicted under was written after the fact and written specifically to convict Catholics like Lynn. Ex post facto, is not a loophole. It is directly mentioned as forbidden in the Constitution. The reason for injustice is never an excuse for injustice.
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Lapey
Guest
I did not say anything about “child molesters”, I specifically stated by Mother Church and Her ministers. Do you translate that to child molesters? And do you translate mine and other’s comments in a way that you think we do not sympathize with the victims? You seem quite angry at Mother Church and not the bad men who have served Her. Quite angry indeed. Again, I apologize for your pain.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
You will receive my response via PM. This is getting too strange and too out of hand.
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gus
Guest
The European numbers haven’t been compiled into a digestible format.
The best stats are on the US crisis. So I will focus on that.
The number of cases reported over a 50 year period was 10,000
When. You consider there are about 400,000 cases annually reported in the the U.S
Abuse by priests isn’t even a statistical category.
8,000 of those cases came from 2,000 priests over 50 years.
This crime has a tendency to be serial so immediate reporting an action is the best preventative measure.
Reporting to the police seems like a good idea but the police without absolute proof haven’t taken an active role, they simply refer the case to DCS. Right know the city of Phoenix has 6,000 cases that have been ignored by that department.
This is not a Catholic Church problem this a a huge cancer on our society.
The Catholic Church has successfully been made the scapegoat by the media for a huge societal problem.
When the Church in the US has instituted a two fold approach of training and prevention.
It’s imperfect but it seems to be effective. New cases are in single digits since 2004
The church scandal has actually had positive benefits.
Included in the reported cases were a large percentage of post pubescent males.
A category that prior to the clergy abuse were actually excluded by many as victims.
For someone of my generation the thought of a 15,16,17 boy as a sexual abuse victim was not a reality.
The scandal moved the public to include this group as a category that required protection.
This is a difficult problem that been with us forever and requires vigilance to prevent its spread. The media focus on clergy abuse actually serves as cover for the abuse of children .
If we focus on the sliver we can happily ignore the log.
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RCCB
Guest
That may sound good superficially but where are those ex-priest/sexual predators now??? Are they out in the community, unknown to those around them? I did not hear the pope say, the church has turned 400 pedophile priests over to the secular authorities and made subject to the judicial process of their state government. In this sense, the pope, washing his hands of the institutional burden and problem, may just have made the it even worse then before! And does the church call that wisdom?
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ProVobis
Guest
You make a good point. I tried to trace down a couple of priests myself and can’t find them anywhere. But then I didn’t expect the Vatican to publicly display lists of all defrocked priests on all church doors either. Maybe some of them were dealt with further, I don’t know. Perhaps that’s where the UN can make it an issue.
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friend4
Guest
Speaking as a victim of this crime although not related to a priest, the church and society HAVE NOT handled this abuse/crime on the innocent well. It needs to come out publicly to deter offenders and send a clear message to society that this type of behaviour is unacceptable. The reason it has gone on for centuries is because it has been swept under the carpet. “When good men say nothing evil flourishes”. Did not God put the church the head of society even if society does not accept the fact. The church is the role model leading society, as it has done in the past with schools, health care etc. I feel it now has the responsibility to lead (guide) society in how to protect the innocent from this crime that effects it’s victims with a life long trauma. These offenders come from society into professions where the innocent are most at risk. I would like to see the church take the offensive not defensive position. I would like it to be honest, open, transparent and pro-active not secretive and protective. I would like the church to set an example to society, by God’s grace and wisdom, on how best to deal with this crime.
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GraceSofia
Guest
http://www.ncregister.com/images/uploads/johnjayreport_(1).jpg
"Do you notice anything interesting? Do you see how that red line (number of cases) and that blue line (number of priests committing abuse) both begin a REALLY rapid descent? Well, if you look closely at the year when that rapid fall begins, that year would be 1981 - two years after John Paul II is elected Pope and the same year Ratzinger is picked to head the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
“Even though the CDF won’t streamline the process and gain sole jurisdiction over abuse cases until 2001, the chart shows that the minute Ratzinger became the head of CDF, someone, somewhere started shutting these abusive priests down. By 1995, most of the rat holes had been closed.”
Read more: ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/benedicts-peculiar-record-on-pedophile-priests#ixzz2rUAVkyYU
"Do you notice anything interesting? Do you see how that red line (number of cases) and that blue line (number of priests committing abuse) both begin a REALLY rapid descent? Well, if you look closely at the year when that rapid fall begins, that year would be 1981 - two years after John Paul II is elected Pope and the same year Ratzinger is picked to head the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
“Even though the CDF won’t streamline the process and gain sole jurisdiction over abuse cases until 2001, the chart shows that the minute Ratzinger became the head of CDF, someone, somewhere started shutting these abusive priests down. By 1995, most of the rat holes had been closed.”
Read more: ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/benedicts-peculiar-record-on-pedophile-priests#ixzz2rUAVkyYU
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weller2
Guest
One has managed to get another job in line with his interests…
articles.philly.com/2012-10-02/news/34199381_1_tsa-camden-diocese-peter-feuerherd
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