Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[guanophore]

Please study and continue in the spirit of John 17 and the call for unity… which is really a call for unity as a witness to the world of the truth of Jesus Christ and the glorious gospel of God.

Yes, we must all continue to study, try to understand one another, find agreement where we can, and strive for unity in the bond of peace.

Your persistent clinging to doctrine which is a departure from Apsotolic faith will not enhance this effort, however.

 

[guanophore]

It appears you are intentionally ignoring the doctrine of justification which caused the Protestant Reformation.

Not at all, 2nd Adam! I think the Holy Father has made it quite clear that it was not the doctrine of justification that caused the Reformation. The Catholic Church has always taught that we are justified by grace, through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

There were many factors that caused the Reformation, one of the primary being the corruption of Latin clerics in Europe. These are the same issues that brought about the Great Schism - pride, arrogance, selfishness, greed, misunderstandings.

It was not doctrine that was the problem. That is why the Reformation only produced more division than it healed. What needed Reformation were the people, not the doctrine!

The other factors involved in the Reformation were largely political and economic. Luther’s views would not have gone very far if not for King Frederick of Saxony, and the disgruntlement of all the disenfranchised nobles that were sick of submitting to the Roman Pontiff. To say that any one "doctrine’ caused the Reformation is a very narrow minded point of view, in addition to being false.

Here is my question to you, which is the question the Pope is asking too.  It seems the Pope is acknowleding the truth of justification by faith alone as so is the professor.

The Pope is asking a rhetorical question, a habit of teachers. He then answers the question, putting forth what has been believed by the Catholic Church since the day the Church was born.

You see,the NT is a Catholic book. It was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. You find the doctrine of justification there because there were no books allowed in the NT by the Catholic Church that did not reflect the Catholic faith.

You seem to believe that the Reformers “discovered” something that was not previously known or taught.

Clearly the clergy in Europe did not seem to be teaching it, or practicing the faith they claimed to espouse. But, just like the betrayal of Judas does not invalidate all that Jesus taught, their apostasy and corruption does not invalidate the teachings of of the church.

 

[guanophore]

I find it very insightful that Catholics cannot answer the most important question for every human being. How does man become just in God’s eyes? It seems Catholics have lost sight of the central foundation of Christianity. I find that to be so sad.

What insight is that?

It is sad that there are so many Catholics that don’t know their faith. It is also very fortunate that we have a faithful and capable teacher in the Pope.

However, embracing heresies created by Reformers is not the solution, 2nd Adam. It was not the doctrine that needed to be reformed, but the ones responsible for teaching it. Men are always in need of Reform. Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin erred by trying to solve the problem by moving away from the Apostolic faith.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Since the Pope is addressing Martin Luther, I thought a link to a work by Martin Luther on justification by faith would be helpful. It is the thread topic.

apuritansmind.com/Justification/LutherMartinJustificationTableTalk.htm

The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love
… Pope Benedict on Justification by faith (see signature for entire work).

 

[2nd_Adam]

What insight is that?

It is sad that there are so many Catholics that don’t know their faith. It is also very fortunate that we have a faithful and capable teacher in the Pope.

However, embracing heresies created by Reformers is not the solution, 2nd Adam. It was not the doctrine that needed to be reformed, but the ones responsible for teaching it. Men are always in need of Reform. Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin erred by trying to solve the problem by moving away from the Apostolic faith.

It is very sad that many Catholics like yourself appear to be always pointing to the Catholic Church to find life, yet Pope Benedict is pointing you guys to Jesus Christ. Can’t you guys see that in his work on justification by faith? In addition, my signature has another link by the college Catholic professor who is saying the exact same thing as the Pope. The Pope’s question can easily be answered by any Christian (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc). Here is the answer:

Hebrews 12

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

"…But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us…"

Justification by Faith

PETER KREEFT (see second link on my signature)

 

[JonNC]

This is a reference to baptism, a reflection of the Apostles’ teaching that is regenerative, contrary to the teaching of the Reformers.

Ouch! uch: Luther most certainly thought of Baptism as regenerative.

Luther’s Small Catechism

How can water do such great things?–Answer.

It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#baptism

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=2nd Adam;5776751]I find it very insightful that Catholics cannot answer the most important question for every human being. How does man become just in God’s eyes? It seems Catholics have lost sight of the central foundation of Christianity. I find that to be so sad.

Justification by Faith

I thought they answered it quite well, in the JDDJ:

.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

Jon

 

[ccolley2]

2nd Adam;5721498:

No… this is what he said:

I know.

You misrepresent it in your heading, as I pointed out and I’m sure you recognize.

IF!! If is the key word you left out of the quote.

For an example, this quote directly contradicts Pope Benedict’s point:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

AMEN!
CC

 

[ccolley2]

Early Church Fathers on being justifiied by faith

Ignatius of Antioch

"His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). [Note: “muniments” are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.]

Athanasius

It would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon His word [Genesis 2:17] and that humanity, having transgressed, should not die. it was unthinkable that God, the Father of Truth, should go back on His word regarding death [Genesis 2:17] in order to ensure our continued existence. He could not make Himself a liar. What, then, was God to do?. The Logos perceived that our perishing condition could not abolished except through death. Yet He Himself, as the Logos, being immortal and the Father’s Son, could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that this body, through belonging to the Logos Who is above all, might become a sufficient exchange in dying for all. His body, remaining imperishable through His indwelling, would thereafter put an end to perishing for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. By surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, He immediately abolished death for His human brothers by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Logos of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled by death all that was required. (On the Incarnation of the Logos, 6-7, 9)

To provide against this also, He sends His own Son, and He becomes Son of Man, by taking created flesh; that, since all were under sentence of death, He, being other than them all, might Himself for all offer to death His own body; and that henceforth, as if all had died through Him, the word of that sentence might be accomplished (for all died in Christ), and all through Him might thereupon become free from sin and from the curse which came upon it, and might truly abide for ever, risen from the dead and clothed in immortality and incorruption. (Athanasius, Orations Against The Arians 2:69)

For man, being in Christ, was quickened. For this was why the Word was united to man, namely, that against man the curse might no longer prevail. This is the reason why they record the request made on behalf of mankind in the seventy-first Psalm: Give the King Your judgment, O God (Psalm 72:10): asking that both the judgment of death which hung over us may be delivered to the Son, and that He may then, by dying for us, abolish it for us in Himself. This was what He signified, saying Himself, in the eighty-seventh Psalm: Your indignation lies hard upon me (Psalm 88:7). For He bore the indignation which lay upon us (On Luke 10:22, ch.2)

Clement of Rome

“We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith” (Epistle to Corinthians).

Polycarp

"I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

St. Clement - Letter to the Corinthians:
“Why was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith?”

St.Clement - Letter to the Corinthians: {you omitted the last part of the paragraph}
What then shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease our good works and put an end to love? …Rather, let us be willing to perform every good work earnestly and willingly.

St. Clement of Alexandria:
“…when we hear, “your faith has saved you!” we do not understand [the Lord] to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed, To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that He spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly, and who had lacked only faith in the Lord.”

St. Cyprian of Carthage -
“…so that you may, at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living.”

CC

 

[2nd_Adam]

St. Clement - Letter to the Corinthians:
“Why was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith?”

St.Clement - Letter to the Corinthians: {you omitted the last part of the paragraph}
What then shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease our good works and put an end to love? …Rather, let us be willing to perform every good work earnestly and willingly.

St. Clement of Alexandria:
“…when we hear, “your faith has saved you!” we do not understand [the Lord] to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed, To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that He spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly, and who had lacked only faith in the Lord.”

St. Cyprian of Carthage -
“…so that you may, at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living.”

CC

Of course all Christians are saved to the praise of His glorious grace, and to walk the works God prepared each one of us to walk in. But what is the basis of your good works, does it merit your salvation, or is it done as gratitude in what God has done in Christ for us? How great is the work of Christ that was done on our behalf is the real question?

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[guanophore]

It is very sad that many Catholics like yourself appear to be always pointing to the Catholic Church to find life, yet Pope Benedict is pointing you guys to Jesus Christ.

I am sorry this saddens you Adam. I think it only does because you don’t recognize that there is no distinction between Christ and His Body, the Church. It seems that you live in a perception of decapitation, where Christ is not really connected that His Body is not really a part of Him. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, and Jesus IS the Truth.

Most Protestants suffer from a deficient understanding of Church.

Can’t you guys see that in his work on justification by faith? In addition, my signature has another link by the college Catholic professor who is saying the exact same thing as the Pope. The Pope’s question can easily be answered by any Christian (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc).

Indeed, the vast majority of Christendom misses the point. Perhaps you are here on CAF because you believe we are missing the point?

 

[guanophore]

Ouch! uch: Luther most certainly thought of Baptism as regenerative.

Luther’s Small Catechism

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#baptism

Jon

See? that is why I love having you here!

I had the Calvanistic tradition on my mind at the time. I believe our Anglican brethren also retain this Apostolic Teaching. Thanks again Jon!

 

[guanophore]

Of course all Christians are saved to the praise of His glorious grace, and to walk the works God prepared each one of us to walk in. But what is the basis of your good works,

Grace is the basis of all. Grace is the basis of both our faith and our works. Only in Him, according to the purpose of the One who has destined us to live for the praise of His glory. We who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of His glory. There is no separation between the grace that justifies us, and the grace that produces the works in us that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 does it merit your salvation, or is it done as gratitude in what God has done in Christ for us?

Such a question is framed around a deficient understanding of the nature of salvation.

How great is the work of Christ that was done on our behalf is the real question?

His work is done, but ours is not. He desires that we work out our salvation. There is a qualitiative difference between working out, and working “on” ones salvation. Those who are in grace cooperate with His Spirit by faith to walk in His ways. Those who do not understand grace will attempt to meet His requirements (keep the commandments) by the effort of their human ability, not understanding the priniciple that He is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

 

[ron77nyc]

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

This is a reference to baptism, a reflection of the Apostles’ teaching that is regenerative, contrary to the teaching of the Reformers.

If baptism is regenerative, why do some baptized people grow up to be atheists? It seems to me that the act of baptism does not guarantee the first stage of a new birth in all cases. The Church throws out seed and some of it falls on stony ground. Then there’s the gospel of John which tells us that you have to be drawn by the Father.

John 3:8 “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

John 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

 

[hawkeye]

For those who believe that personal good works is necessary to enter Heaven.

I already posted it up, " I was thirsty, you gave me a drink, naked, you clothed me."

Why would Jesus say such a thing if it wasn’t necessary ? He also said if we want to follow Him we have to take up our cross.

Taking up our cross and following Him sure seems like work to me, and from my past life, believe me it has been a cross.

please tell me why God should let you into Heaven?

He shouldn’t, the odds are stacked against me, but as I’m a devotee of “Divine Mercy” then that’s my hope.

The parable of the talents basically-means, if you have a gift, don’t waste it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I already posted it up, " I was thirsty, you gave me a drink, naked, you clothed me."

Why would Jesus say such a thing if it wasn’t necessary ? He also said if we want to follow Him we have to take up our cross.

Taking up our cross and following Him sure seems like work to me, and from my past life, believe me it has been a cross.

He shouldn’t, the odds are stacked against me, but as I’m a devotee of “Divine Mercy” then that’s my hope.

The parable of the talents basically-means, if you have a gift, don’t waste it.

Your answer is very close to proclaiming a works righteousness salvation. That is why many Protestants think that Catholics have a faith based on personal works for justification. Please read the Catholic professor’s paper on my signature (second link).

 

[2nd_Adam]

Grace is the basis of all. Grace is the basis of both our faith and our works. Only in Him, according to the purpose of the One who has destined us to live for the praise of His glory. We who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of His glory. There is no separation between the grace that justifies us, and the grace that produces the works in us that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Such a question is framed around a deficient understanding of the nature of salvation.

His work is done, but ours is not. He desires that we work out our salvation. There is a qualitiative difference between working out, and working “on” ones salvation. Those who are in grace cooperate with His Spirit by faith to walk in His ways. Those who do not understand grace will attempt to meet His requirements (keep the commandments) by the effort of their human ability, not understanding the priniciple that He is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

I think we have a different understanding of grace. Therefore, we are talking past each other.

 

[ccolley2]

Your answer is very close to proclaiming a works righteousness salvation. That is why many Protestants think that Catholics have a faith based on personal works for justification. Please read the Catholic professor’s paper on my signature (second link).

For another thing, the terms of the dispute are ambiguous or used in two different senses. When terms are ambiguous, the two sides may really disagree when they seem to agree because they agree only on the word, not the concept. Or the two sides may really agree when they seem to disagree because they agree on the concept but not the word. The latter holds true here.

***When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God. **But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity, the works of love.
*
The word faith was also used in two different senses. Luther used it in the broad sense of the person’s acceptance of God’s offer of salvation. It included repentance, faith, hope, and charity. This is the sense Saint Paul uses in Romans. **But in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul uses it in a more specific sense, as just one of the three theological virtues, with hope and charity added to it. In this narrower sense faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, for hope and charity must be present also. **That is the sense used by the old Baltimore Catechism too: faith is “an act of the intellect, prompted by the will, by which we believe what has been revealed on the grounds of the authority of God, who revealed it”.

This “faith”, though prompted by the will, is an act of the intellect. Though necessary for salvation, it is not sufficient. Even the devils have this faith, as Saint James writes: “Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe — and tremble with fear” (James 2: 19). That is why James says, “it is by his actions that a person is put right with God, and not by his faith alone” (James 2:24). Luther, however, called James’ epistle “an epistle of straw”. He did not understand James’ point (applied to Abraham’s faith): “Can’t you see? His faith and his action worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions” (James 2:2 2).

Peter Kreeft (the “theologian”) is agreeing with the Holy Father, but neither of them are agreeing with **Sola **Fide in the way that most Protestants (including Martin Luther) understand it.
CC

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

For those who believe that personal good works is necessary to enter Heaven, please tell me why God should let you into Heaven?

The bible explicit informs us that we will be judged for our actions.

We can’t please God without the intervention of his grace. However, his grace can intervene and yet we still have the choice of rejecting him.

We must strive to conform to his will.

If we reject him, he will reject us.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Your answer is very close to proclaiming a works righteousness salvation. That is why many Protestants think that Catholics have a faith based on personal works for justification. Please read the Catholic professor’s paper on my signature (second link).

If we don’t obey Jesus, we won’t remain in his love.

Obedience is an act of will.

I’m guessing that your words and actions are not in conformity.

My guess is that you do strive to obey Jesus and live a holy life.

Am I right?