Pope Benedict XVI signed papal act on 3/30 "freeing" the TLM [rumor]

[rciadan]

I think a lot of priests will be willing to learn, if they don’t already know, Latin. I see a lot of priest who are frustrated with the lack of faith evident at Mass in various forms from, coming to Sunday Mass dressed like hookers, looking like you just came in from mowing the yard, to complete lack of reverence for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, just to name a few.

It seems to me that lack of faith and lack of proper catechesis and lack of attendence at Mass can all be traced back to the institution of the Novus Ordo.

I could be wrong…but that is the way I see it.

 

[SFH]

jimmy:

It could also turn out that it could bring some more reverence to the knew liturgy. Having the old liturgy there to scrutinize the knew one could cause it to get better.

That’s true, which is why I would prefer to see the Tridentine Mass established as an independent rite within the Catholic Church.

 

[srp643]

rciadan:

I think a lot of priests will be willing to learn, if they don’t already know, Latin. I see a lot of priest who are frustrated with the lack of faith evident at Mass in various forms from, coming to Sunday Mass dressed like hookers, looking like you just came in from mowing the yard, to complete lack of reverence for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, just to name a few.

It seems to me that lack of faith and lack of proper catechesis and lack of attendence at Mass can all be traced back to the institution of the Novus Ordo.

I could be wrong…but that is the way I see it.

I totally agree. I would add that the drop-off in vocations is likely related to Vatican II. If we look at the seminaries that are truly orthodox, they appear to be thriving while the others are emptying. What’s interesting is that the younger generation of priests appears to have a zeal for tradition. In any event, nothing else as significant can appear to explain the vocations problem.

I just went to the Mass for all time (i usually serve at a NO mass in NY) this morning at St. Agnes (NY). I think about your comment above re clothes and general level of reverence/prayerfulness. I must say, when looking at the old Mass congregation (I would estimate it occupied 90% of the church pews today) with women wearing scarves, men in suits and sportcoats, most praying along with their open missals, etc. there is a tangible difference in the two services I attend. Kneeling before receiving the Blessed Sacrament is also more reverential and appropriate in my opinion (I’ve started genuflecting before receiving at the NO Mass because of this). There is an air of humility, respectfulness, prayerfulness and sacrifice that is often missing in the NO mass I attend. People appear to just be “there”, but their hearts and minds appear to be elsewhere and hardly anyone sings. This may or may not be true elsewhere but I do see similar situations at NO masses I attend when I travel.

 

[kleary]

SFH:

As much as I love the Tridentine Mass, I think it would be a disaster to bring it back.

If the Tridentine Mass is reintroduced in full vigor, I don’t think we will ever see the Novus Ordo Mass offered as the Council Fathers intended it to be offered

The Council Fathers NEVER ENVISIONED - NEVER INTENDED - a “Novus Ordo Mass” as we have it today, even with Chant and Latin as it is celebrated currently in Rome.

Ken

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

“IMO, there needs to be mutual forebearance - but ther can be no rejection of Vatican II.”

Please cite the document from Vatican II which mandated the Novus Ordo.

No single document does so, if you’re looking for a modern equivalent of “Quo Primum” from between 1962 and 1965 (but see below). It’s enough that:​

1. The then Pope interpreted the relevant Conciliar and post-Conciliar documents in such a way as to allow the newer Mass to replace the older.
2. That he promulgated a newer Missal
3. And that, even if what he did was not in strictly canonical terms the promulgation of a new Missal (as the late Michael Davis argued in “Pope Paul’s New Mass”), the text in question is that of the Eucharistic Liturgy of the major part of the Roman Rite, and can therefore be said to have been validated by a sort of sanatio in radice which makes up for any formal defects in the legal paperwork which introdiuced into the Roman Rite at large.

I’m using here for the 1969 Missal only the sort of argument that validates the pontificate of Alexander VI - he counts as a valid pope despite the many irregularities surrounding his election because he was recognised as Pope de facto, which was equivalent to giving him legitimacy as such as Pope de jure: that recognition supplied for the defects of the process by which he gained the papal chair. So here - recognition *de facto *by the maior et sanior pars of the Roman Rite, supplies for any preceding canonical defects. So, the 1969 Missal is fully legitimate, even if its legitimacy could have been more clearly manifested.

1. Besides, it has been in use for over thirty years, which gives it a further basis in law as being legitimated by customary use. Unless one is to refuse the 1983 Code, which contains that provision, as being post-Conciliar. (That provision may be in the 1917 Code too - I don’t know.)

That’s my understanding of the matter.

So why can’t the two missals co-exist in peace ? Is there a reason they should not ? ##

 

[Trident59]

Regarding the sceptics who seem not to get it; the freedom to say the Latin Mass is all that I could ask for. Most traditionalists would not associate with schismatic groups if the T Mass was freely available with such groups as ICKSP and FSSP or a local parish through the Diocese. There is a legitimate need for the local Bishops to make sure that the Priests are properly trained in Latin Rubrics before offering Mass.

I’ve seen the discussions on other threads about the “dissension” that the TLM will cause. That kind of attitude is just so much horse manure.

For 40 years the traditionalists, with the exception of a few, have shut their mouths and attended the N.O. rite.

We have not created problems. Those that have protested have mostly just left the Church.

At one time I was a member of the SSPX in Post Falls, ID., but when the “Schism” occurred we returned to the N.O. Mass.

All that people like my family ask for, is to attend the Latin Rite and be in communion with Rome.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

If the Tridentine Mass is reintroduced in full vigor, I don’t think we will ever see the Novus Ordo Mass offered as the Council Fathers intended it to be offered – in Latin and with Gregorian chant. Catholics will just go to the Tridentine Mass if they want a Latin Mass and Gregorian chant.

The Mass needs to prove itself, not be rarely proven. We have had forty years with little or no progress on the reverence of the Mass…there has to come a point when we say enough is enough and leave it as the noble, yet failed, experiment it was.

I would, if I were Pope, promulgate a Tridentine Missal, but use the current cycle of readings (In accord with Vatican II that the treasures of the Bible should be opened more fully) and also mandate that the readings be given in English as a part of the Sermon (also in accord with the LIMITED use of the vernacular).

But that is me, and (Alack!) I am not Pope.

-SPXII

 

[Trident59]

I have attended the N.O. Mass at Holy Rosary in Portland, OR. This parish is probably saying the N.O. as it was intended to be said. They have a beautiful reverent Mass with latin responses. Sung gregorian at the 11:00am Mass. Communion on the tongue, Communion rail. And kneeling before the Lord. There are no Lay Eucharistic Ministers.

This Mass is very beautiful but it is still not the Tridentine. Could I accept it as the only way? Yes, if I had no other choice.

There is also an indult Tridentine Mass at St. Birgitta’s in Portland but its at 8:00 am. and its a 2 hour drive from my house. Same distance to Holy Rosary.

I certainly feel that the two Masses can successfully exist side by side.

 

[Marchi]

I’m old enough to remember the Latin Mass.
I even kept my 1962 ST Joseph Missile.
However I see the return of this Mass a wonderful way to Link with our History. But the Mass should be offered only on a limited basis, for special occasions or for learning.
The new mass by itself didn’t cause irreverence. I frankly have learned to love the mass as my understanding of it has grown.

 

[batteddy]

I would, if I were Pope, promulgate a Tridentine Missal, but use the current cycle of readings (In accord with Vatican II that the treasures of the Bible should be opened more fully) and also mandate that the readings be given in English as a part of the Sermon (also in accord with the LIMITED use of the vernacular).

I would do something similar. Maybe not the current cycle of readings (I’d try to have one year be mainly like the classic old tridentine cycle) but I’d have a three year cycle instead of one.

I’d also re-add the “prophecy,” the ancient liturgical name for the old testament reading, that was dropped in the Roman rite before the epistle. It opens up the old testament, and gives a more logical and expanded place for the role of the minor order of Lector (Lector=Prophecy, Subdeacon=Epistle, Deacon=Gospel) Otherwise, he just has limited roles on special days because other ministers read all the readings.

I would probably also move the dismissal (ita missa est…) to AFTER the Last Gospel…that’s just always seemed to make more sense to me.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Servus Pio XII:

The Mass needs to prove itself, not be rarely proven. We have had forty years with little or no progress on the reverence of the Mass…there has to come a point when we say enough is enough and leave it as the noble, yet failed, experiment it was.

I would, if I were Pope, promulgate a Tridentine Missal, but use the current cycle of readings (In accord with Vatican II that the treasures of the Bible should be opened more fully) and also mandate that the readings be given in English as a part of the Sermon (also in accord with the LIMITED use of the vernacular).

But that is me, and (Alack!) I am not Pope.

-SPXII

So the liturgy would not be in the vernacular? What do you mean by “limited?” See, to me, in the context of the liturgy, anything more than the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Mysterium Fidei, and the Agnus Dei would be too much Latin.

I predict that any pope who does what you propose (because as someone mentioned, the vernacular, called for or not to the degree that it is used, is now so commonly used as to be the norm) would divide the Church. The schism would be even larger than it currently is with the SSPX. And I think Pope Benedict is (and succeeding popes will be) far too smart for that.

 

[whosebob]

JMJ + OBT​

Taken from:
The New Liturgical Movement (blog)

**Friday, April 07, 2006

Here we go… the first rumours about the rumours.**

Alright… here we go. As you know, today is the day for the interdicasterial meeting of the Pope and his curial heads, where it is rumoured the Tridentine rite, the Mass of St. Pius V, the traditional Latin Mass, the classical Roman liturgy – whatever you wish to call it – will be somehow “liberalized”. Here are the first rumours about those rumours:

Argent by the Tiber is reporting the following:

According to Radio Vatican the Holy Father will promulgate a ‘motu proprio’ liberalizing the Mass of St. Pius V. Time to tune in to Radio Vaticana.

A French blogger is reporting:

*Benoît XVI et la messe saint Pie V

D’après Radio Vatican en italien, le Saint Père convoquerait très rapidement une nouvelle fois le dicastère. Il serait sur le point de promulguer un motu proprio (“acte législatif pris et promulgué par le Souverain Pontife”) pour “libéraliser la messe selon le rite de saint Pie V”.*

A rough translation of which would be:

According to the Italian Vatican Radio operator, the Holy Father will very quickly convene again the dicastery. The purpose would be to promulgate a Motu Proprio (“legislative act taken and promulgated by Sovereign pontiff”) “to liberalize the Mass according to the Rite of Saint Pius V”.

We continue to wait to see if we get any kind of official word today if this is the case and the details of it, or at least a more official source for a rumour – I imagine we are less likely to get the former today, right on the heels of their meeting, and more likely to get some more rumours. So be patient.

Pope St. Pius V,
ora pro nobis!

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

Please dear Lord, let this be true!

 

[Isidore_AK]

Praying…

 

[dumspirospero]

Boy…that would be so sweet…let us all pray for it to happen.

 

[whosebob]

JMJ + OBT​

Whoah, at first I thought I had done something “bad,” as my new thread had disappeared. But I’m glad it was appended to this thread – definitely a better spot for it. And I’m not trying to discuss or debate the morderator’s actions – I should have thought to append that post to this thread in the first place, and I’m glad that the moderator “helped me out” in that regard. Thanks, moderator(s), keep up the good work!

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Walking_Home]

Dear merciful Lord, please.

 

[Ghosty]

I want to hear, one way or the other, soon. I’m really dying to know how this all turns out

Peace and God bless!

 

[Isidore_AK]

Update from The New Liturgical Movement (blog)
The New Liturgical Movement:

Friday, April 07, 2006
Further rumour reports from Archivum Liturgicum

Another update. Over at the Italian blog, Archivum Liturgicum (who originally made the rumour that a decree had already been signed), they are rumouring as follows tonight, seemingly confirming the story about Vatican Radio (which I personally haven’t been able to confirm in the minimal English language programming on Vatican Radio):

Vatican Radio announces the papal document on the rite of the Mass.

Today Vatican Radio has announced that His Holiness Benedict PP XVI has signed a document about the Rite of the Mass, as has been foreseen on this blog. The document will in all probability be published on the occasion Maundy Thursday.

Thanks to, Juan, for pointing this out. And again, please remember folks, this is all unofficial as of yet.

 

[arieh0310]

The document will in all probability be published on the occasion Maundy Thursday.

I have to wait another 6 day???