W
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the indult. As it is today, there are parishes within Roman Catholic dioceses that are allowed to celebrate the Tridentine Mass but *only *at the expressed permission of the Bishop. If this indult is given, the Bishop could *never *forbid a priest from celebrating the Tridentine Mass.Too many bishops would not touch the TLM with a ten foot pole or allow their priests to.
Such a move would be extremely devisive and it would in no way be consistent with the other liturgical traditions you mention. Aināt gonna happen anyways.I think you misunderstand the purpose of the indult. As it is today, there are parishes within Roman Catholic dioceses that are allowed to celebrate the Tridentine Mass but *only *at the expressed permission of the Bishop. If this indult is given, the Bishop could *never *forbid a priest from celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
Furthermore, I find it appalling that a pre-existing form of worship within the Roman Catholic Church was *ever *forbidden. If there are worries of āconfusionā then I suggest, perhaps, the creation of a Tridentine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. This would be entirely consistent with Romeās appreciation of other forms of liturgy as expressed in the Byzantine, Maronite, Coptic - and so on - Churches.
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=43449 &Ok, but how āofficialā is the rumor that a document concerning the Mass was signed? Iām not up on the relative reliability of different āVatican rumorā sources, though Iām sure thereās some kind of hierarchy of sorts.
SHHHH, youāll jynx itā¦It sure sounds like a strong rumor, but that could just be a matter of it being louder through repeating. Thereās absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that this rumor is in any way discreditable, other than the fact that we havenāt heard anything official from the Vatican yet. Given the quality of the āleaksā weāve had so far in this Pontificate, however, I have a gut feeling that this may indeed be true.
Maundy Thursday is my new day of waiting, I guess, though Iāll be too busy with Holy Week to put as much concern into as I did this week.
Peace and God bless!
LOURDES, France, APRIL 7, 2006 (ZENIT.org).- The bishops of France expressed their willingness to receive Archbishop Marcel Lefebvreās followers, once they are reconciled with the Holy See.
In a note issued today, at the end of their four-day plenary assembly, members of the French episcopal conference said: āWe know that Benedict XVI is concerned aboutā relations with the Society of St. Pius X, founded by Archbishop Lefebvre.
āIn the forthcoming weeks or months, he should give directives to facilitate the way towards a possible return to full communion,ā they said.
āWe will received them in faith and apply them with fidelity. Evangelically, everything possible must be done so that the Lordās word ā āThat they be oneā ā is fulfilled,ā the bishops continued.
According to the bishops, āthis communion must be sought in charity and truth. Charity means to try to know and understand one another, and to make false images disappear that we might have of one another.ā
āIt means, at the same time, abandoning all systematic controversies and all desire for confrontation,ā they added.
Truth āimplies being clear on our points of dissension. In fact, the latter affect acceptance of the magisterium more than questions of liturgy, in particular, that of the Second Vatican Council and of Popes of the last decades,ā they emphasized.
āCommunion may be accompanied by questions, requests for precision or further reflection,ā they indicated. āIt cannot tolerate a systematic rejection of the council, criticism of its teaching, or denigration of the liturgical reform decreed by the council.ā
Things would appear to be accelerating, but its likely full communion will be many months or a few years away yet. But I am hopeful, even if the Holy See takes a drawn out one issue at a time approach, which is what I expect will happen.Things are heating up, looks like the French episcopate is opening its arms to the SSPX: Zenit
Just becuase a āuniversalā indult is signed does not mean that there will be any change in the Church as we know it today.Meh, if a universal indult is granted soonā¦I wonāt really care if reconcilliation with the SSPX takes years.
And thatās what has me wondering if he isnāt going to do a personal prelature. If most (western) bishops oppose this, surely the Holy Father isnāt going to set up a situation where bishops and the priests in communion with them, serving under them, are arguing over what Mass will be said at St. Phillipaās at 9:30 on Sunday AM. He may well do it, though (and I have to say, even as one who loves the Pauline Mass, the bishops will, by and large, have only themselves to blame for dragging their feet on the Indult. If theyād bent the knee and neck, there wouldnāt have been such an uproar).Even if the pope decides to step on the feet of all the Western bishops of the world by granting a āuniversalā indult, this does not mean that there will any visible change to the laity.
Alsoā¦Saturday, April 08, 2006
"A document has been signedā¦"
Rorate Caeli are reporting the following in addition:
"One of our most trustworthy sources has finally broken the general silence and has confirmed that truly a document of great importance on the liturgy of the Latin Church āhas been signedā.
āHowever, just as yesterday we mentioned āā¦the Rite of the Massā¦ā, this source cannot or will not confirm if this document of great importance impacts (a) the Traditional Roman Rite (or, as it is usually called in more adequate terms, āthe liturgical rite and discipline, according to the prescriptions of Saint Pius V, with the adaptations introduced by his successors up to Blessed John XXIIIā); or (b) the New Roman rite (which, regarding the rite of the mass, was approved on Holy Thursday, 1969, by the Apostolic Constitution āMissale Romanumā, of Paul VI); or (c) both rites.ā
Another comment in this same post about the Vatican Radio report weāve been hearing about:
āWe thank the dear commentator who was able to transcribe what would have been said at Radio Vaticana, though apparently later expunged from the official transcript. Amidst the report on the conclusions of the Assembly of the French Episcopal Conference regarding āthe Traditionalist questionā ā¦ the reporter would have said: āā¦CiĆ², soprattutto, in vista della pubblicazione del motu proprio del Papa sul rito della Messaā¦ā (That is: āThis [the measures towards Traditionalists] especially in view of the publication of the Motu Proprio of the Pope on the rite of the Mass.ā).ā
posted by Shawn Tribe @ 8.4.06 |
Update: new Ecclesia Dei appointments. Is the Holy Father moving the Chess pieces?
Whispers in the Loggia is reporting the following this morning:
"Benedict XVI named three members of that group who are widely seen as being among his closest allies to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, which handles issues relating to the 1988 indult ā and, informally, relations with the Society for St Pius X.
"The new members of Ecclesia Dei are Cardinals William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Jean-Pierre Ricard of Bordeaux, head of the French episcopal conference, and the Spanish primate Antonio CaƱizares Llovera of Toledo.
āCaƱizares is known as the ālittle Ratzingerā ā he became close to the pontiff as secretary of the doctrine committee of the Spanish bishops. At the Big Ratzingerās behest, Canizares was named a member of the CDF.ā
This news is officially confirmable on the Italian language section of the Vatican website here.
While it may or may not be related, Vatican Information Service is reporting that Cardinal Levada did have an audience with the Holy Father, last evening, after the interdicasterial meeting of that morning.
posted by Shawn Tribe @ 8.4.06 |
Just becuase a āuniversalā indult is signed does not mean that there will be any change in the Church as we know it today.
The bishop will still have to allow a priest the space to use to do the old Mass.
Hmmā¦Even if the pope decides to step on the feet of all the Western bishops of the world by granting a āuniversalā indult, this does not mean that there will any visible change to the laity.
JKirkLVNV said:(and I have to say, even as one who loves the Pauline Mass, the bishops will, by and large, have only themselves to blame for dragging their feet on the Indult. If theyād bent the knee and neck, there wouldnāt have been such an uproar).
Iām not quite sure what you meanā¦But are they really dragging their feet?
What constitutes the gracious application of the indult?
I come from a different experience as I am a Byzantine Catholic. There is not a Byzantine Catholic Church in every city. Some of our mission Churches have even been closed recently due to the fact that there are not enough people attending and/or they are not giving enough to support such a thing.
What is the minimum number required to run a Church? Must a parish (or bishop) subsidize the old Mass for the handful in a diocese/city that want to attend one? Why are they so special to recieve this treatment when parishes are being closed for lack of funds and priests to man them?
If the pope does this then I can see the vocations ācrisisā getting worse.
How do you know this? Some of those calling for a āuniversalā indult say that it will allow a priest to chose with no say from the bishop at all.Iām not quite sure what you meanā¦
The indult allows the choice to the individual priest, but only with the consent of the Bishop.
But a need for all those who attend that third Mass to go somewhere else if they do not feel drawn to the old Mass.Say you have 3 Masses on Sunday, a priest can choose to make one of them a TLMā¦no special need for a new parish, no need for a new Priest.
I think you judge the bishops to harshly. The current Mass is the normative Mass and there is nothing liberal about having that Mass at all their parishes.All this would do is take the Bishop out of the equationā¦because many of the Bishops are liberals who think that using the old Rite is āregressiveā and drags the Church back into the middle-agesā¦it supposedly destroys all of their precious changes from VII. There are many priests out there who, given the choice, would happily say the old Mass instead of the NO.
Youāre asking the same question *I *asked, Byz! What if 5 people in Oatmeal, Tx, want the Pian Mass, out of a population of 100 Catholics? Does that 5% mean that provision has to be made for them? The bishop has to provide a priest that CAN say it or who WANTS to say it?But are they really dragging their feet?
What constitutes the gracious application of the indult?
I come from a different experience as I am a Byzantine Catholic. There is not a Byzantine Catholic Church in every city. Some of our mission Churches have even been closed recently due to the fact that there are not enough people attending and/or they are not giving enough to support such a thing.
What is the minimum number required to run a Church? Must a parish (or bishop) subsidize the old Mass for the handful in a diocese/city that want to attend one? Why are they so special to recieve this treatment when parishes are being closed for lack of funds and priests to man them?
If the pope does this then I can see the vocations ācrisisā getting worse.
Dear Brother JKirk,Youāre asking the same question *I *asked, Byz! What if 5 people in Oatmeal, Tx, want the Pian Mass, out of a population of 100 Catholics? Does that 5% mean that provision has to be made for them? The bishop has to provide a priest that CAN say it or who WANTS to say it?
But then, as to the dragging of feet, there are much larger diocsese like San Diego for instance or Orange, where the TLM is relegated to cemetary chapels or, as is the case in Orange, the Serra Chapel of San Juan Capistrano Mission. Some bishops have been dragging their feet or the old Holy Father would not have reiterated his plea for a wider application of the indult.
Also (and this is my personal bitterness coming through), if our bishops AND our priests had shown greater concern for reverent offerings of the Pauline Mass, without constantly allowing it to be made into a showcase for their own egos, I really believe we wouldnāt have people yearning after the old Mass. You know, as a Byzantine, lots of folks from the Roman Rite jumped over to YOUR rite because they wanted to attend a reverent offering of the Holy Sacrifice (and in my parish, the Pauline Mass IS reverent). Does anyone imagine that they would have found that necessary if theyād been getting what the Church says they have a right to have, ie, a properly celebrated Mass?
No, itās the hierarchyās fault, esp. in the west.