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Walking_Home
Guest
I have to wait another 6 day???
I know how you feel.
Pope Benedict XVI signed papal act on 3/30 "freeing" the TLM [rumor]
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I know how you feel.
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mike182d
Guest
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the indult. As it is today, there are parishes within Roman Catholic dioceses that are allowed to celebrate the Tridentine Mass but *only *at the expressed permission of the Bishop. If this indult is given, the Bishop could *never *forbid a priest from celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
Furthermore, I find it appalling that a pre-existing form of worship within the Roman Catholic Church was *ever *forbidden. If there are worries of āconfusionā then I suggest, perhaps, the creation of a Tridentine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. This would be entirely consistent with Romeās appreciation of other forms of liturgy as expressed in the Byzantine, Maronite, Coptic - and so on - Churches.
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Ghosty
Guest
Ok, but how āofficialā is the rumor that a document concerning the Mass was signed? Iām not up on the relative reliability of different āVatican rumorā sources, though Iām sure thereās some kind of hierarchy of sorts.
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SummaTheo
Guest
A spanish website says the same thing about the document being released Maundy Thursday, but it is in spanish. aciprensa.com/noticia.php?n=12203
Here is a rough translation:
VATICAN, 07 Abr. 06 (ACI).- The Pope Benedicto XVI presided this morning a meeting in the Vatican Apostolic Palace with the leaders of the dicasterios of the Roman Curia in which, according to Vatican sources, would have been discussed the reform of the Curia and the indulgence for the universal celebration of the Missal of San Pious V.
The appointment, of extraordinary character, was carried out after an ordinary one celebrated February 13 passed, in which the Holy Father asked the opinion of the capidicasterio on the universal approval of the Missal of San Pious V, the liturgical rite in force before the Vatican Council II.
Likewise, March 23 passed, the Pontiff presided a meeting with all the cardinals before their first town Council to collect opinions on the situation of the emeritus bishops, that is to say, the ones that have surpassed the 75 years and, therefore, they cease in their functions of government of their diocese. Besides, on that occasion the theme of the dialogue with the Islam and that of the lefebvrianos was undertaken, that ask to be readmitidos in the Church.
In this second meeting with the Roman Curia, celebrated in the Room Bologna of the Vatican one, Benedicto XVI would have collected the pareceres of the heads of the dicasterios to make decisions about the liturgical reform in the line presented by Juan Pablo II in the letter encyclical āEcclessia of eucharistaā of April 17, 2003. According to the same sources, the most important announcement than would continue to this encounter would be the liberalization of the Missal of 1962, a decision that forms part of the liturgical reform prompted by the Pope Benedicto XVI but that would be able to have a significant impact in the process of reconciliation with the schism lefevbrista.
Here is a rough translation:
VATICAN, 07 Abr. 06 (ACI).- The Pope Benedicto XVI presided this morning a meeting in the Vatican Apostolic Palace with the leaders of the dicasterios of the Roman Curia in which, according to Vatican sources, would have been discussed the reform of the Curia and the indulgence for the universal celebration of the Missal of San Pious V.
The appointment, of extraordinary character, was carried out after an ordinary one celebrated February 13 passed, in which the Holy Father asked the opinion of the capidicasterio on the universal approval of the Missal of San Pious V, the liturgical rite in force before the Vatican Council II.
Likewise, March 23 passed, the Pontiff presided a meeting with all the cardinals before their first town Council to collect opinions on the situation of the emeritus bishops, that is to say, the ones that have surpassed the 75 years and, therefore, they cease in their functions of government of their diocese. Besides, on that occasion the theme of the dialogue with the Islam and that of the lefebvrianos was undertaken, that ask to be readmitidos in the Church.
In this second meeting with the Roman Curia, celebrated in the Room Bologna of the Vatican one, Benedicto XVI would have collected the pareceres of the heads of the dicasterios to make decisions about the liturgical reform in the line presented by Juan Pablo II in the letter encyclical āEcclessia of eucharistaā of April 17, 2003. According to the same sources, the most important announcement than would continue to this encounter would be the liberalization of the Missal of 1962, a decision that forms part of the liturgical reform prompted by the Pope Benedicto XVI but that would be able to have a significant impact in the process of reconciliation with the schism lefevbrista.
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Tired
Guest
Such a move would be extremely devisive and it would in no way be consistent with the other liturgical traditions you mention. Aināt gonna happen anyways.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
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Ghosty
Guest
It sure sounds like a strong rumor, but that could just be a matter of it being louder through repeating. Thereās absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that this rumor is in any way discreditable, other than the fact that we havenāt heard anything official from the Vatican yet. Given the quality of the āleaksā weāve had so far in this Pontificate, however, I have a gut feeling that this may indeed be true.
Maundy Thursday is my new day of waiting, I guess, though Iāll be too busy with Holy Week to put as much concern into as I did this week.
Peace and God bless!
Maundy Thursday is my new day of waiting, I guess, though Iāll be too busy with Holy Week to put as much concern into as I did this week.
Peace and God bless!
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twiztedseraph
Guest
SHHHH, youāll jynx itā¦It sure sounds like a strong rumor, but that could just be a matter of it being louder through repeating. Thereās absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that this rumor is in any way discreditable, other than the fact that we havenāt heard anything official from the Vatican yet. Given the quality of the āleaksā weāve had so far in this Pontificate, however, I have a gut feeling that this may indeed be true.
Maundy Thursday is my new day of waiting, I guess, though Iāll be too busy with Holy Week to put as much concern into as I did this week.
Peace and God bless!
C
Catholic29
Guest
Things would appear to be accelerating, but its likely full communion will be many months or a few years away yet. But I am hopeful, even if the Holy See takes a drawn out one issue at a time approach, which is what I expect will happen.
However, if Richard Williamson became SSPX superior, I think dialogue would come to an abrupt and perhaps permanent endā¦
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batteddy
Guest
Meh, if a universal indult is granted soonā¦I wonāt really care if reconcilliation with the SSPX takes years.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Just becuase a āuniversalā indult is signed does not mean that there will be any change in the Church as we know it today.
The bishop will still have to allow a priest the space to use to do the old Mass.
Even if the pope decides to step on the feet of all the Western bishops of the world by granting a āuniversalā indult, this does not mean that there will any visible change to the laity.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
And thatās what has me wondering if he isnāt going to do a personal prelature. If most (western) bishops oppose this, surely the Holy Father isnāt going to set up a situation where bishops and the priests in communion with them, serving under them, are arguing over what Mass will be said at St. Phillipaās at 9:30 on Sunday AM. He may well do it, though (and I have to say, even as one who loves the Pauline Mass, the bishops will, by and large, have only themselves to blame for dragging their feet on the Indult. If theyād bent the knee and neck, there wouldnāt have been such an uproar).
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Isidore_AK
Guest
From this mornings update:
From the New Liturgical Movement:
From the New Liturgical Movement:
From the New Liturgical Movement:
Alsoā¦
From the New Liturgical Movement:
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batteddy
Guest
Hmmā¦
I dont know for the laity. They always could go to an indult mass (though some areas dont have them).
But as someone who wants to become a Jesuit priest, and also say the Tridentine mass occasionallyā¦it could be good. I was extremely worried my Jesuit superiors would forbid. Theyāve been known to crack down on traditional liturgyā¦I would put nothing passed the Jesuits (and this is coming from someone who wants to be oneā¦) But if there is a universal indult, when saying my private daily mass where-ever I amā¦they couldnt stop me. At least, lets say it this way, it would not need to concern them, they would not even have to know, because I wouldnt have to petition my superior for an indult he might not approve of. Id just be able to use the old rite under the universal indult privately, without ever having to get the higher-ups involved. Public saying might cause a stirā¦but privately, it would make things easier: I wouldnt have to petition anyone (and probably get turned down) for explicit permission.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
JKirkLVNV said:
But are they really dragging their feet?
What constitutes the gracious application of the indult?
I come from a different experience as I am a Byzantine Catholic. There is not a Byzantine Catholic Church in every city. Some of our mission Churches have even been closed recently due to the fact that there are not enough people attending and/or they are not giving enough to support such a thing.
What is the minimum number required to run a Church? Must a parish (or bishop) subsidize the old Mass for the handful in a diocese/city that want to attend one? Why are they so special to recieve this treatment when parishes are being closed for lack of funds and priests to man them?
If the pope does this then I can see the vocations ācrisisā getting worse.
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Iām not quite sure what you meanā¦
The indult allows the choice to the individual priest, but only with the consent of the Bishop. Say you have 3 Masses on Sunday, a priest can choose to make one of them a TLMā¦no special need for a new parish, no need for a new Priest. All this would do is take the Bishop out of the equationā¦because many of the Bishops are liberals who think that using the old Rite is āregressiveā and drags the Church back into the middle-agesā¦it supposedly destroys all of their precious changes from VII. There are many priests out there who, given the choice, would happily say the old Mass instead of the NO.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
How do you know this? Some of those calling for a āuniversalā indult say that it will allow a priest to chose with no say from the bishop at all.
How would this differ from the current indult which allows the old Mass with conset of the bishop?
But a need for all those who attend that third Mass to go somewhere else if they do not feel drawn to the old Mass.
How about the parishes where they have three Masses on Sunday, one in English, one in Spanish, and one bi-linugal? Which Mass do we eliminate in those situations?
So lets say we do this though and the old Mass is only attened by a handful of people and the tithe for that Mass goes down, where does the Church make up the loss?
I think you judge the bishops to harshly. The current Mass is the normative Mass and there is nothing liberal about having that Mass at all their parishes.All this would do is take the Bishop out of the equationā¦because many of the Bishops are liberals who think that using the old Rite is āregressiveā and drags the Church back into the middle-agesā¦it supposedly destroys all of their precious changes from VII. There are many priests out there who, given the choice, would happily say the old Mass instead of the NO.
And yes you are right, there are many people out there who think they know better than those in authority.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Youāre asking the same question *I *asked, Byz! What if 5 people in Oatmeal, Tx, want the Pian Mass, out of a population of 100 Catholics? Does that 5% mean that provision has to be made for them? The bishop has to provide a priest that CAN say it or who WANTS to say it?
But then, as to the dragging of feet, there are much larger diocsese like San Diego for instance or Orange, where the TLM is relegated to cemetary chapels or, as is the case in Orange, the Serra Chapel of San Juan Capistrano Mission. Some bishops have been dragging their feet or the old Holy Father would not have reiterated his plea for a wider application of the indult.
Also (and this is my personal bitterness coming through), if our bishops AND our priests had shown greater concern for reverent offerings of the Pauline Mass, without constantly allowing it to be made into a showcase for their own egos, I really believe we wouldnāt have people yearning after the old Mass. You know, as a Byzantine, lots of folks from the Roman Rite jumped over to YOUR rite because they wanted to attend a reverent offering of the Holy Sacrifice (and in my parish, the Pauline Mass IS reverent). Does anyone imagine that they would have found that necessary if theyād been getting what the Church says they have a right to have, ie, a properly celebrated Mass?
No, itās the hierarchyās fault, esp. in the west. I donāt normally dump on the bishops, either, but Cardinal Mahoney is STILL consecrating the Most Precious Blood in flagons and THEN fractioning It (for example).
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QUICUMQUE_VULT
Guest
Dear Brother JKirk,
That is an excellent post. Pretty much sums it up!
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