Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[manualman]

Actually Jesus chided only those Pharisees who did not practice the Pharisaic moral code of the Torah correctly. He wanted to reinstate a legitimate understanding and following of the Torah in the Pharisaic tradition, which believed, for example, that working on the Sabbath was permitted for the purpose of preserving one’s own or another’s health and life. BTW, the Law hardly spoke of abortion at all and so Jesus followed suit.

Jesus didn’t call people who made honest mistakes “brood of vipers.” He gave gentle correction to repentant sinners and the lost. He saved anger for those who packaged sin and tried to sell it as good. Don’t get me wrong, you make a perfectly valid clarification that in many cases the Pharisees were the GOOD guys theologically (Jesus elsewhere told people to do as they said, not as they did).

I hardly think you or I are qualified to pontificate on Jesus’ motivations for NOT speaking on a specific issue. But since we are D), I suspect that abortion was simply not a common practice among Jews of the day and didn’t come up for that reason. Jesus never wrote a catechism, he appointed apostles for that.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Did Jesus say it was ok to sin? No.
And look who he ate with.

 

[Lormar]

Jesus didn’t call people who made honest mistakes “brood of vipers.” He gave gentle correction to repentant sinners and the lost. He saved anger for those who packaged sin and tried to sell it as good. Don’t get me wrong, you make a perfectly valid clarification that in many cases the Pharisees were the GOOD guys theologically (Jesus elsewhere told people to do as they said, not as they did).

I hardly think you or I are qualified to pontificate on Jesus’ motivations for NOT speaking on a specific issue. But since we are D), I suspect that abortion was simply not a common practice among Jews of the day and didn’t come up for that reason. Jesus never wrote a catechism, he appointed apostles for that.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am sorry but I couldn’t disagree more. What a sad view you have of your fellow Catholics!

Do you disagree because you want it to be that way, or because it is? I don’t have a sad view of Catholics. I have a realistic view of the state of Catholicism in the United States, and I understand my culture well enough to know that what I wrote is pretty much going to be, and has been, the main sort of reaction.

Sure, sure, people on CAF know what the Pope is saying because this forum has an overwhelmingly catechized Catholic culture. But when you speak to people about “mercy” and “forgiveness” when the larger culture outright denies the existence of forgiveness’s presumption, sin, all that seems to be* received by people in the secularistic culture is Hallmark Card catchphrases and a message that is responded to in a manner similar to the following: “Yay abortion, and go gay people!” “Forgiveness” on its own means absolutely zero to the secularistic society of today, and people are not about to make the logical leap and connect the dots on their own to complete the picture, oh no. I am not saying forgiveness is a bad thing! But it is a package deal.

I know very well what the Pope is saying, how it is good, right and thoroughly orthodox. I also understand what he is trying to accomplish. I support the Pope in these desires because the goals of the Pope themselves are nothing more than what Christ wants for humanity. However, I am also very cognizant of the blindingly-clear typical takeaway of all of these interviews and messages: “Yay, the Pope finally admits that we can do what we want after all, cuz Jesus loves us and stuff.” Outside of circles like CAF and other deeply Catholic communities, this is near universal takeaway. I will not pretend that this typical reaction does not exist, or that it is some tiny little speck of a faction of the citizens of the [Western] world. To do so would be, for me, to commit myself to a psychiatric ward; it is mentally untenable.

*from the majority of blog posts, news articles, comments, essentially the corpus of recorded information.

 

[lovetheworld]

Sorry, what buzzword are you talking about?

Also, how is not hating on a group of people that has never harmed me, or affected my life in any way being ignorant? as well - God made them this way. Putting them down is like telling God he messed up.

AdavnceAlways - I’m not critisizing you at all… I’m just not into hating on anyone, as I am a Christian… I am totally on board with the Pope on this one… and hoping to see a less biggeted youth taking over Catholicism.

Your ignorance is incredible. Your liberal buzzwords are useless.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Sorry, what buzzword are you talking about?

Also, how is not hating on a group of people that has never harmed me, or affected my life in any way being ignorant? as well - God made them this way. Putting them down is like telling God he messed up.

AdavnceAlways - I’m not critisizing you at all… I’m just not into hating on anyone, as I am a Christian… I am totally on board with the Pope on this one… and hoping to see a less biggeted youth taking over Catholicism.

Your buzzword is hate. Everything with you folks is all about this mythical “hate.” No one here hates gay people. You’re appealing to the standards of pop-culture and not of God. There you go with buzzwords again. Bigoted. Seriously? Because we believe in the commandments and the laws of God, we’re bigoted? Grow up.

 

[lovetheworld]

Harvard, I was raised Catholic. I’m not speaking about things i heard it the media. Its sad to see hatred in the religon I use to be an alter boy in… I have always prayed that the biggetry in the church gets over-turnd one day. I know its not written the Christian books… but it was very alive w/in the Church… I know we all witnessed it.

Thank you Pope Francis - God bless you dude.

His predecessors never promoted hatred either. They also “actually listened to Jesus” too. I I strongly encourage you to bypass the media’s biased reporting and get to know the Popes through their own words.

 

[manualman]

1. Interestingly enough, it does. Translating it as “sin” does not do the verse justice. See:
   biblehub.com/matthew/18-6.htm I hope I do not have to explain that being molested by a priest will negatively affect victim’s relationship with God. Which is what the verse refers to.
2. Of course. Now: read Jesus’ anti-Phariseic rant in Matthew 23. Can you find any Catholic clergymen who match the descriptions therein?

What Francis is doing is calling out the Pharisees in the Church.

1. You sure don’t have to explain it to me. (sin IS the right word since by definition it is an action that fundamentally damages our ability to receive and re-give divine love) But it won’t be long before we’ll both be having to explain it to society at large. Already efforts are underway to lower statutory rape ages… But the fact remains that it is not explicit. The reader must first understand it to be harmful before he can understand that it applies. It’s easily deniable to those so inclined.
2. Plenty. What’s your point? Not an adult catholic on earth is unaware of the fact that priests are sinners like the rest of us. If you have a further point, go ahead and say it rather than insinuate it.

 

[opus101]

Do you disagree because you want it to be that way, or because it is? I don’t have a sad view of Catholics. I have a realistic view of the state of Catholicism in the United States, and I understand my culture well enough to know that what I wrote is pretty much going to be, and has been, the main sort of reaction.

Sure, sure, people on CAF know what the Pope is saying because this forum has an overwhelmingly catechized Catholic culture. But when you speak to people about “mercy” and “forgiveness” when the larger culture outright denies the existence of forgiveness’s presumption, sin, all that seems to be* received by people in the secularistic culture is Hallmark Card catchphrases and a message that is responded to in a manner similar to the following: “Yay abortion, and go gay people!” “Forgiveness” on its own means absolutely zero to the secularistic society of today, and people are not about to make the logical leap and connect the dots on their own to complete the picture, oh no. I am not saying forgiveness is a bad thing! But it is a package deal.

I know very well what the Pope is saying, how it is good, right and thoroughly orthodox. I also understand what he is trying to accomplish. I support the Pope in these desires because the goals of the Pope themselves are nothing more than what Christ wants for humanity. However, I am also very cognizant of the blindingly-clear typical takeaway of all of these interviews and messages: “Yay, the Pope finally admits that we can do what we want after all, cuz Jesus loves us and stuff.” Outside of circles like CAF and other deeply Catholic communities, this is near universal takeaway. I will not pretend that this typical reaction does not exist, or that it is some tiny little speck of a faction of the citizens of the [Western] world. To do so would be, for me, to commit myself to a psychiatric ward; it is mentally untenable.

*from the majority of blog posts, news articles, comments, essentially the corpus of recorded information.

 

[lovetheworld]

No - I am speaking as someone raised in a heavy Catholic enviornment. Yes, Homosexuality is a very hated thing common among many Catholics. My feelings have nothing to do with pop-culture.

And yes, totall bigotry. when you hate someone… you are so far from God. Also, as a Christian, which Commandment are you refering too? Love they neighbour? As someone mentioned above… Did Jesus ever have an issue with anyone? Sorry, I just need to live like he did… and people like you will never change us true Christians.

PS: Sorry, not upset with you… My points are storng as my opinion are… but I pray for you… and hope you one day see the light, and can live in love and peace. Till now, I just send you love.

Your buzzword is hate. Everything with you folks is all about this mythical “hate.” No one here hates gay people. You’re appealing to the standards of pop-culture and not of God. There you go with buzzwords again. Bigoted. Seriously? Because we believe in the commandments and the laws of God, we’re bigoted? Grow up.

 

[anglicanusepapa]

Some here are saying that Jesus didn’t speak to certain issues in Sacred Scripture, when in fact He did speak to those issues, albeit indirectly. He spoke to homosexuality, when He said sexual impurity was sinful and spoke to abortion when He condemned murder.

Jesus is fully God and fully man so when Scripture, which is the Word of God, speaks of anything ( as when homosexuality is condemned in the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans) it is God speaking and therefore also Jesus the Christ.

KNK

 

[Havard]

@lovetheworld:

I’ve never heard a practicing Catholic preach hatred toward gay people. Perhaps you are confusing hatred of the sin with hatred of sinner?

 

[Country_Gal]

I found the article to be very inspiring and I can’t see the problems that some are seeing. I thought this part was especially interesting, given some of the responses in this thread (my bolding):

“If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God.** Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal ‘security,’ those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists—they have a static and inward-directed view of things. In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies.** I have a dogmatic certainty: God is in every person’s life. God is in everyone’s life. Even if the life of a person has been a disaster, even if it is destroyed by vices, drugs or anything else—God is in this person’s life. You can, you must try to seek God in every human life. Although the life of a person is a land full of thorns and weeds, there is always a space in which the good seed can grow. You have to trust God.”

Wise teachings. I love this Pope!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Do you disagree because you want it to be that way, or because it is? I don’t have a sad view of Catholics. I have a realistic view of the state of Catholicism in the United States, and I understand my culture well enough to know that what I wrote is pretty much going to be, and has been, the main sort of reaction.

Sure, sure, people on CAF know what the Pope is saying because this forum has an overwhelmingly catechized Catholic culture. But when you speak to people about “mercy” and “forgiveness” when the larger culture outright denies the existence of forgiveness’s presumption, sin, all that seems to be* received by people in the secularistic culture is Hallmark Card catchphrases and a message that is responded to in a manner similar to the following: “Yay abortion, and go gay people!” “Forgiveness” on its own means absolutely zero to the secularistic society of today, and people are not about to make the logical leap and connect the dots on their own to complete the picture, oh no. I am not saying forgiveness is a bad thing! But it is a package deal.

I know very well what the Pope is saying, how it is good, right and thoroughly orthodox. I also understand what he is trying to accomplish. I support the Pope in these desires because the goals of the Pope themselves are nothing more than what Christ wants for humanity. However, I am also very cognizant of the blindingly-clear typical takeaway of all of these interviews and messages: “Yay, the Pope finally admits that we can do what we want after all, cuz Jesus loves us and stuff.” Outside of circles like CAF and other deeply Catholic communities, this is near universal takeaway. I will not pretend that this typical reaction does not exist, or that it is some tiny little speck of a faction of the citizens of the [Western] world. To do so would be, for me, to commit myself to a psychiatric ward; it is mentally untenable.

*from the majority of blog posts, news articles, comments, essentially the corpus of recorded information.

But the secularist media is going to present their own message no matter what the Pope says. If they can interpret it in a libertarian manner, they will. If and when this very same Pope condemns something, as he surely will, they will condemn him for “disappointing Catholics with his return to hard-core doctrinarianism” and they will quote the “Nuns on the bus” or somebody expressing their “hurt” and “concerns about returning patriarchy”.

what one hopes, though, is that perhaps some Catholic who has felt himself “morally boxed in” by some sinful behavior in the past, will see an opening to return. People often create their own prisons and sit in them when the door is wide open.

 

[manualman]

As an aside, how cool is it that we’re hanging out having a nice, vigorous argu,…err… discussion about what the pope is saying in public? Regardless of anybody’s (wrong) views D), it sure beats talking football scores!

 

[lovetheworld]

Most Catholics I know are against gays, they are against gay Marrage, gay rights, gay adoption… and the list goes on. I always just wondered “why… what did they do to us?”

@lovetheworld:

I’ve never heard a practicing Catholic preach hatred toward gay people. Perhaps you are confusing hatred of the sin with hatred of sinner?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Wise teachings. I love this Pope!

Me also. Especially his simplicity and accessability.

 

[manualman]

@lovetheworld:

I’ve never heard a practicing Catholic preach hatred toward gay people. Perhaps you are confusing hatred of the sin with hatred of sinner?

Get out much?

Let’s be honest here and admit that Christians have not always adequately lived up to our instructions to “love the sinner, but hate the sin.” Us fallen humans prefer to either love both or hate both (and often swing back and forth). The biggest lesson we have to learn from the Pharisees mistakes is that we have sins to repent of too. Human fallenness loves a good scapegoat and the best scapegoats are always people who do bad things that we personally aren’t interested in. Makes us feel so righteous, no?

Yes, it’s a hard balance to reject modern attempts to undermine church teaching while still instilling respect for the human dignity of those doing the undermining. But if it were easy, we wouldn’t have to live so long, would we?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Most Catholics I know are against gays, they are against gay Marrage, gay rights, gay adoption… and the list goes on. I always just wondered “why… what did they do to us?”

We are against those things because they are morally wrong. That does not mean we hate gay people.

 

[BigBlueCane]

We are against those things because they are morally wrong. That does not mean we hate gay people.

You can be against those things and mind your own business at the same time. Its the fervent OBSESSION with issues like that which gives people a bad taste in their mouths about catholics. Which is unfortunate since the Church is WAAAAAAAAAAY more than gays, abortion, contraception. Those are fine points.