Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

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Tantum_ergo said:
Even if he **were **hinting at this (which BTW I refuse to accept); I consider that the media’s is using Pope Francis, for now, to present a crafted ‘anti-Pope’ by trying to make him look as though he DIFFERS in his ‘teaching’ from other Popes and will ‘change’ the Church. He might differ in style, but he does not differ in teaching the Faith, and if by any chance I am wrong and he would attempt to do this, be assured that the Church will be protected from teaching falsehood.

I still trust Pope Francis because I can clearly see that just as the media twisted Benedict’s words and presented him as cold and uncaring because of his early position, they are twisting Pope Francis’ words just as much. They’re just twisting them in a different way.

They realized that Benedict’s words and actions clearly indicated the truth of Catholic teaching, and all that they could do was ‘ad hominem’–attempt to make Benedict the MAN look cold, and then present the logical fallacy :He is cold, therefore the Church is cold. And over time fewer and fewer people were duped.

But ah, with Pope Francis, they can twist his words and present a ‘reverse’ ad hominem: "Look, Francis is warm, Francis is accepting, Francis speaks of ‘change’ in the heart, and that MUST mean change in the teaching. Because Francis is warm, he will change the church, and because he is warm he is good, and because he is good, changing the Church will be good.’

SAME OLD ILLOGICAL FALLACIES, different premises. And will be,in time, just as clearly seen by people. . .and by then, the media (and Satan) will have a new ‘twist’. Just don’t listen.
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LiberalPrincess said:
It’s sad to see some Catholics now so choked with hate that they even attack the Pope. Very tragic and sad.
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Hate, shmate.

I saw no “hate”. Yes, it is unfortunate that some are so quick to believe the worst and not consider the fact that there might be some kind of mistake, but “hate” it is not. What an extreme way to interpret things.

Certain verbage gives trolling activists away almost immediately. Not to mention just joining CAF just a few hours ago. Just in time.
 
foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/19/lets-not-just-talk-about-sex-what-pope-francis-really-said-to-jesuit/?intcmp=latestnews
Snippet:
Not everything in the world is about sex and politics. That message may take the New York Times a few more homilies and interviews with Pope Francis to understand.
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The Catholic Church – or at least those preachers and teachers who are outspoken on matters concerning human sexuality, especially when catechetical discussions are turned into clashes in the public square for political or cultural reasons – is often accused of being obsessed with sex. But the obsession might just be the media’s.
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Wonder when or if will we ever get an honest media that limits itself to reporting news instead of making them.
 
Darryl1958 said:
You don’t hate abortion?
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The Holy Father did not say that he did not hate abortion. When I heard snippets from the priest who interviewed him, the main word I heard was “obsession”. Some people are simply obsessed with certain sins. For some, it may be the sin of war. For others, it may be the sin of abortion or the sin of environmental destruction.

It is much more in line with Jesus’ ministry to focus on loving one another, forgiving everyone, and serving those in need. If the Pope’s words change the image of our Church in the world to one of open arms instead of pointing fingers, he has performed a miracle.
 
Fevronia said:
You can correct me here but this is the message I get
  1. Lets not talk about / emphasize abortion too much because we want to draw people in
  2. This is what God will want us to do for he is merciful
The problem here for most of us is

1a) We know millions of innocent children are murdered by abortion
2a) God does not tolerate the shedding of the blood of innocents
3a) So we must be doing all we can to stop it

So there is a contradiction. One cannot help but feel torn. If you can reconcile these two, I am sure most of us here will feel comforted. Do you have an answer?
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THe pope is making it very clear that Christianity is about being Christlike, thus while the Pharisees condemned the sinners, Christ reached out to them. The devil doesn’t care about killing the babies as much as he wants to make murderers out of people. We would do more for the pro-life cause by prayer and fasting for the gift of faith for those who lack it, to prevent them from making the worst mistake in their life, such as killing their own son or daughter.

The pope is not saying that we must stop opposing abortion, what he is teaching us is that being a good Christian does not simply mean opposing abortion, contraception and homosexual agendas.
 
Pope Francis understands that hearts and minds are changed more by persuasion than by legislation and directives. Reminds me of the words of the late Dr. Monika Hellwig who once remarked, “You can’t throw Truth at people in such a way that all they can do is duck.” :yup:
 
ishii said:
Oh he could be direct as well. Remember when he drove the money changers from the temple? Didn’t use parables for that. And he said, “eat my body and drink my blood.” One would hope that the Pope does not inadvertently give ammo to the secular media to distort.

Ishii
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To make things more dour, the Headline quote was the most innocuous statement in the interview to an extent as there are other more troubling things in the interview. Only because it could be read in a good way, I still believe it was relatively unsettling because of the fact that it was a response to the Bishop Tobin related to the question and it could also be read in a bad way:

It must be said realistically. What he has said in the past few weeks literally affects me and millions of other Catholics families who have been confronting this issue not in the way the Holy Father implies, in a sense that enables people with a false sense of security in their sins, how can I uphold the faith in front of my cafeteria Catholic friends and own family without being accused of being “stuck in the past” or “imposing” were I to clarify Church teaching when it comes up? Or “oh you’re obsessed” will be said.
When the contrary has been the case. I’ve had to suffer in silence, and choose to speak up sparingly much less than I would like. Yet I know that Jesus bore much of the sins while he walked on this earth and had patience with the stupid things even the apostles believed wrongly to the smallest sense of sin and error in all his neighbors as he walked with us.

I wish the Pope would say it in that way that, that is what the faithful must do, but he seems too busy talking to the world and seeking their approval and therefore he is STILL not clear.
How can the Pope not see that he hurts those who are prepared to give a defense in the midst of a post- Christian world?

Pray for the Papa for I do not believe in trying to paint a good light on everything the Pope does personally.
As far as I can tell externally and temporally I believe he is a weaker pope and God has allowed it.😦

Thankfully because of the firm foundation of the Church, I know I as a layperson, even if I believed the pope to have whatever faults I publicly perceive, this is to be my response in charity and prayer for the person of the Vicar of Christ always :
Francis must have known about the decay in the Church, but he always showed the Church and its people his utmost respect. When someone told him of a priest living openly with a woman and asked him if that meant the Mass was polluted, Francis went to the priest, knelt before him, and kissed his hands – because those hands had held God
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.

This keeps me grounded, and keeps me humble when it comes to the faults of the clergy. So too, much more is abundantly afforded to the Vicar of Christ; the office of Peter.
 
My emotions have been back and forth today after reading the Pope’s words. I can’t decide what I think, and I think probably I’m not alone.

I came to the Catholic faith very much a pagan millennial last December. I was searching for truth. I met a wonderful orthodox young priest who told me that the Church was like Noah’s Ark for lost souls afloat. I’ve been on fire to learn more about the Catholic faith ever since. I’ve listened to hundreds of Catholic Answers hours on the radio. Last year, I would have said, no big deal on these moral issues, too difficult to come to an answer… Hearing people like Trent Horn, Tim Staples, etc., really changed my heart and mind.

I’ve met some really, really great orthodox Catholics. I know a political science professor who has dedicated his professional career to the prolife movement. I recently went to marriage counseling and some wonderful couples came and spoke of what NFP has done for their marriage. It helped get my skeptical, cradle Catholic fiancée into NFP classes. Our NFP instructor said something that was so profound, “This class is so important because our most important job on this earth is to get our spouse to heaven.”

I saw a self described “traditional” priest post on Father Z.’s blog today that he feels left out to dry. I just feel in my heart that these wonderful people I’ve met must also feel the same (I can tell my prolife professor probably does by his tweets). I wonder how all the great people who work at Catholic Answers feel…Fighting the culture war today is so brutal. If you are against same sex marriage, you are a bigot in my generation. If you are prolife and a man, you have no right to tell a woman what to do. If you do NFP, you’re a fundamentalist.

I completely understand what the Holy Father is trying to accomplish. Based upon what the world teaches today, I agree you must believe in the Truth before you can accept there is sin. But, as others have said, I’m skeptical that the world will see what the Pope is talking about. Unfortunately, we live in a Twitter world where reality is what you can read in 40 characters. I’m afraid the message will be that the Catholic Church finally realized how crazy their views were. Talk in law school today was about how wonderful the Pope is because of his view’s on homosexuality.

I’m starting RCIA in two weeks. I want to feel the same fire, but if I said I did, I’d be lying. One of the things that attracted me to the Catholic Church was that we could trust the Chair of Peter to teach the truth (I understand this wasn’t an infallible statement but nevertheless its hard to understand all that is going on).

What I have come to believe in these past few months is that there really is an enemy. I know he worked on me trying to tell me Catholics were wrong about many things: the Blessed Mother, Apostolic Succession, sin, confession, etc. Then he tried to tell me chastity was impossible. Now, he’s trying to tell me that I should despair for the Church. It seems he’s also telling that to a lot of people on CAF.

Ultimately, we know the Gates of Hell will not prevail. Thus, I conclude two possibilities exist…Perhaps God is trying to help me see the true message of the Church and the Gospel better through Pope Francis. That thought has crossed my mind a lot today. Have I been a Pharisee? Or, perhaps, the Church will experience another period of decline as some seem to believe. Again, even if that were true, those of us in the Truth know that God will not allow the Gates of Hell to prevail. Can you imagine if Drudge Report existed during the reign of Alexander VI? (Not trying to say this good and holy Pope is anyway comparable to him).

God will sort it all out in the end. Might be quick or take a long time. Either way, I’m starting RCIA soon, perhaps a bit more humble, which can only be good.

Peace. Good night.

Mike
 
I think the media tends to twist without twisting… selective quoting if you might. But I know nothing about this particular circumstance.
 
Let us not forget that if the Catholic church is seen to fold on abortion, gay marriage etc, then it becomes that much harder for small orthodox Protestant churches to also hold the line.

The whole interview is a disaster. If the Catholic Church does not “obsess” over abortion and gay marriage, then who does??? And what does it say to all the pro-lifers and traditional marriage people that they have been called “small minded” by the Pope??? Talk about abandoning your own people to appease your enemies.

Shambolic. Something JPII and Benedict XVI would never have done. Ever.
 
TimSpalding said:
The word “ammo” and “ammunition” keeps coming up. Don’t give ammo to these people. Don’t give ammo to those people.

How about “Quit the violent and inflated war talk”?

The culture war is over. The ultras on both sides won. Christ lost. He lost when people starting talking about truth as gunplay.
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Your post is incorrect and to be brusque shows your ignorance and misconception about “war talk”

The Church are against war in the 21st century especially since Christendom has passed, but they are not pacifist, and the means of war is a result of sin, but not ALWAYS bad when it comes to the defense of the family. And Christ did not condemn the use of swords altogether as he did not condemn the roman centurions occupation it is to admit that we could have heaven on Earth. Until the second coming, there will be inclination to strife, so it is a reality, that while on THIS earth, life is a warfare.

The Vicar of Christ in the past , has stated the Church Faithful on this Earth are the “Church Militant”.

Scripture uses many references to warfare.
Lastly, To ever say Christ “lost” is also egregiously erroneous and is more offensive than any “war talk” that you wrongfully rebuke ishii for….

Christ already won the war. The mention of "war ’ in spiritual matters and battles has nothing to do with any NEW phenomena as if it was a 20th century concept at the end of the 90’s with that “culture wars” in political talk.

It is biblical, and started with the Angels.
To ignore that spiritual matters, are a matter of life and death, literally is to be lukewarm. Christ the prince of peace, did not say “peace” would come through a flower. He said he was bringing a sword.

The truth will divide, hence “ammunition”

Let us not pretend that reality of sin doesn’t exist and therefore there would be no battles here on Earth.
St. Paul himself says “put on the armor of Christ” Put on the new man. Violence to ourselves spiritually by sacrifice, brings about peace, not pretending to ignore the reality that sometimes our neighbor will choose against Jesus and therefore cause division and battles.

hence ishii is correct, those who really do choose the life, that is against Christ, will grow to hate him, and therefore they do seek ammunition against his Church. It is biblical. Do you not think St. Stephen didn’t realize they were gathering ammo against him for preaching Christ risen?
 
People come to expect the rigid structure of the Catholic Church, in time they actually find comfort within it boundaries. However, somehow an unforgiving and condescending attitude has accompanied the structured reality.

The doctrine, the goal of salvation, all remain, the attitude of the mission is all he has addressed. The focus is constantly reminiscent of mercy and forgiveness. Not an uppity attitude which restricts the lost from approach. And a very good example is the aspect of Baptism which the Holy Father addressed. In case you haven’t noticed, this has been an obstacle for many to approach Christ’s Church.

Frankly its about time some of these issue’s were addressed. Have a little faith and trust, its this same critical view which is projected here, which the Holy Father is addressing.

We are all sinners out here, remember that “first” the next time we come face to face with the truly lost. This is indicative of an uppity attitude within the church. Frankly it stinks. I’m not Gods and the Catholic Church police, I’m a disciple of Jesus Christ, and in humility I count my blessings and transmit that in love to others.

There’s a very carnal air which exists and has existed. Descend, so others can ascend, that’s indeed what the Lord has done for us.

This analytical critical view really has to go. Separate yourself from an “image” that is not serving mankind or the Church, and is certainly not conducive to evangelizing. Step outside that comfort zone.

My opinion, throw it out the window if it doesn’t apply.
 
Local Catholic officials say pope’s message not new
GRAND FORKS – Officials of two Catholic dioceses based in Crookston and Fargo said Thursday that news accounts of Pope Francis’ unusually blunt criticism of the church have missed the point.
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By: Stephen J. Lee, Forum News Service, INFORUM
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Pope Francis’s Comments on Gays and Abortion Are Not a “Revelation”
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Consider what the pope did not say. He didn’t say that homosexual acts are morally permissible. He didn’t say that abortion can be morally acceptable in certain (or any) circumstances. He didn’t say anything to indicate he was interested in revisiting Pope Paul VI’s 1968 reaffirmation of the church’s ban on artificial contraception. He didn’t imply that he’s interested in revising the church’s strictures against married priests. He certainly didn’t indicate an openness to permitting the ordination of women. The interview contains no sign that the pope is willing to budge on any of the items on the progressive Catholic wish-list of reforms.
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What the pope did say, in effect, is that in recent years the church has been focusing too single-mindedly on policing sex. He didn’t say anything to imply that he disagreed with or hoped to change any of the church’s sexual teachings. He just wants to place them in a broader context. Catholicism preaches a gospel of human dignity and salvation—that, and not a creepy sexual surveillance, must come first. This is especially true if the church hopes to enjoy any success with a “new evangelization” of the Western world.
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LiberalPrincess,

Please do not call yourself a Catholic, you are not Catholic!

KNK
 
_Abyssinia said:
Local Catholic officials say pope’s message not new

Pope Francis’s Comments on Gays and Abortion Are Not a “Revelation”
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Sounds more like INCOMPETENT damage control.
What the pope did say, in effect, is that in recent years the church has been focusing too single-mindedly on policing sex. He didn’t say anything to imply that he disagreed with or hoped to change any of the church’s sexual teachings. He just wants to place them in a broader context. Catholicism preaches a gospel of human dignity and salvation—that, and not a creepy sexual surveillance, must come first. This is especially true if the church hopes to enjoy any success with a “new evangelization” of the Western world.
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This statement is worse than what Pope Francis’ ever said in his interview.
“A people that kills its own children is without a future***].”
John Paul II
That is not an obsessive creepy statement.

If a people have to be reminded infinity times so be it. I do not understand what the Pope said in his interview and avoids saying things on more than one occasion.

Growing up in my local parish I never heard enough about the hot button issues from the Church herself throught the parish or catholic families other than later finding out that John Paul II constantly preached this simply. When I was young I heard what the world said, and cafeteria catholics - that’s why I believed abortion was okay to just personally disagree with…thats why i could not care less about gay marriage when it first began as a political issue.
How in the HECK has the Church been “policing sex” when it focuses on saying church teaching in countries that subsidize condom purchases?? How is it policed?
Wasn’t the problem the world tells us, was that we have not done Enough to police our own house of its scandals?

I can only look to the Holy Spirit for guidance as it has done so for holy mother church,
All Catholics agree that it is possible for the Pope, even as Pope with an Ecumenical Council**, to err in controversies of fact which depend on human testimony; secondly, that it is possible for him, even in universal questions of faith or morals, to err as a private teacher from ignorance, which happens to other teachers.**
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Next, all Catholics agree that the Pope, with an Ecumenical Council, cannot err in framing decrees of faith or morality; secondly, that the Pope, when determining anything in a doubtful matter, whether by himself or with his own particular Council, whether it be possible for him to err or not, is to be obeyed by all the faithful. - St. Robert Bellarmine*
 
mikecash said:
I completely understand what the Holy Father is trying to accomplish. Based upon what the world teaches today, I agree you must believe in the Truth before you can accept there is sin. But, as others have said, I’m skeptical that the world will see what the Pope is talking about.
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How much of the world saw what Jesus was talking about? Does that mean He shouldn’t have said it, or that He said it wrong?
 
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