Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[Julian_Bashir]

I haven’t seen too much of that. Have you?

We hear about the poor at numerous homilies a year. We have soup kitchens and foor pantries staffed by Catholics around the world. We have a poor box on the back of the Church, year round, and have for centuries. The donations for expectant womnen is a relatively new concept.

So, yes, we catholics obsess over a lot of things worthy of obsessing over.

 

[einna]

Every Catholic church in the very large Catholic city I live in each have a huge sign about stopping abortion and help for adoptions, so we haven’t forgot to speak of it here.

 

[Fevronia]

I think that the Pope gave a pretty good explanation in the interview. Also, its not a new concept. It is known as the Sensus Fidei. Among other places, it is found in Lumen Gentium and also in the Catechism (see CCC 92).

Actually, Yes and No. The teaching authority lies solely with the Teaching magesterium of the Church. So the whole community of believers are not infallible in that sense.

But they are infallible in the sense that when the entire body of the Church decides on something as a whole as they remain faithful to the magesterium of the Church and participate in the life of the Church (Benedict XVI).

So if a person does not listen or obey what is already taught by the Church, they do not have that gift, Sensus Fidei. That is why the Church’s commandments must be taught, for one thing.

To quote Lumen Gentium on this matter

1. The holy people of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name.(110) The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(111) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” (8*) they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God.(112) Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints,(113) penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life

So this is what allows the faithful as a whole to reject some novel idea/teaching even without the Church having to point it out all the time (granted they are believers i.e. faithful to the magesterium of the Church and participates in the life of the Church through sacraments.

In a way, all this is saying is that there is no way that the Church as a whole were ever under an incorrect understanding of its teaching. So one cannot just say “here is a new teaching and now you have to go and re-interpret what you knew before because your understanding was wrong”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes. Like I said you might not agree or like everything, but it seems to make clear where he is coming from and his beliefs. Plus it is not from a political or social media, but it is written by another Jesuit, so take that for what its worth???

Thank You, its a self revealing article. But then this is this Popes way.

 

[Expat_Barbara]

The Pope is right. Being a Catholic Christian is about being a loved sinner, about having a relationship with God and being embraced by his love and mercy. Slightly before the excerpt I quoted the Pope talks about confession and says, “The confessional is not a torture chamber, but the place in which the Lord’s mercy motivates us to do better.” First come the love and mercy of God, then comes our ability to change the world. But we have to know that love in our heads and more importantly, experience it in our hearts.

Spot on.

 

[einna]

The Pope is right. Being a Catholic Christian is about being a loved sinner, about having a relationship with God and being embraced by his love and mercy. Slightly before the excerpt I quoted the Pope talks about confession and says, “The confessional is not a torture chamber, but the place in which the Lord’s mercy motivates us to do better.” First come the love and mercy of God, then comes our ability to change the world. But we have to know that love in our heads and more importantly, experience it in our hearts.

Spot on.

I am so glad you mentioned confession. I have said I grew up with the Jesuits and I was never afraid to go to confession and I always felt God loved me afterward. We were told to try hard to sin no more, which is all any of us can do. Yet when I got to high school there were girls from other Catholic schoosl who would not go to confession face to face with a priest because of how badly they were scolded after they confessed their sins.

This is not to say the Jesuit did it better. It is to say we must be careful not to drive people away from the Church because they think God could never love them.

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t think this has been posted yet, but Pope Benedict XVI said the exact same thing about focusing too much on certain topics that has the media freaking out about Francis:
Pope Benedict XVI:

We should not allow our faith to be drained by too many discussions of multiple, minor details, but rather, should always keep our eyes in the first place on the greatness of Christianity.

I remember, when I used go to Germany in the 1980s and '90s, that I was asked to give interviews and I always knew the questions in advance. They concerned the ordination of women, contraception, abortion and other such constantly recurring problems.

If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith - a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/november/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20061109_concl-swiss-bishops_en.html

 

[livingwordunity]

When Pope Benedict said similar things regarding mercy, did you find him fantastic? There is not an obsession with homosexuality. We aren’t the ones forcing an agenda on society, they are. And of course we should focus on our own sins, but we should also stand up for the truths of the Catholic religion.

 

[einna]

I don’t think this has been posted yet, but Pope Benedict XVI said the exact same thing about focusing too much on certain topics that has the media freaking out about Francis:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/november/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20061109_concl-swiss-bishops_en.html

This is the best post yet for this discussion. Thank you very much. I hope it helps others who are troubled.

 

[Fevronia]

Spot on.

I am so glad you mentioned confession. I have said I grew up with the Jesuits and I was never afraid to go to confession and I always felt God loved me afterward. We were told to try hard to sin no more, which is all any of us can do. Yet when I got to high school there were girls from other Catholic schoosl who would not go to confession face to face with a priest because of how badly they were scolded after they confessed their sins.

This is not to say the Jesuit did it better. It is to say we must be careful not to drive people away from the Church because they think God could never love them.

What if we look at it this way. The fact that we get upset when we get scolded (compared to the men and women of the past) shows us that we have become full of pride and cannot take criticism.

So should we want others to accommodate our pride or scold us more so that we may use it as as scourge to discipline our pride as well as our other sinful inclinations that lead to the sins we are confessing?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh Well .

It was pretty predictable actually. But thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum. That open honestly, would you say Pope Francis has that down cold? Ah yes, I understand all may not agree or like it, but you can’t fault him there.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

What if we look at it this way. The fact that we get upset when we get scolded (compared to the men and women of the past) shows us that we have become full of pride and cannot take criticism.

So should we want others to accommodate our pride or scold us more so that we may use it as as scourge to discipline our pride as well as our other sinful inclinations that lead to the sins we are confessing?

On this one, I have to back up the Pope. Confession should be neither. It isn’t a torture chamber, we don’t go to get scolded, we go to be corrected and given absolution, and spiritual advice and nourishment.

 

[einna]

What if we look at it this way. The fact that we get upset when we get scolded (compared to the men and women of the past) shows us that we have become full of pride and cannot take criticism.

So should we want others to accommodate our pride or scold us more so that we may use it as as scourge to discipline our pride as well as our other sinful inclinations that lead to the sins we are confessing?

No one should be scolded after confessing their sins to a priest, no one. You are their to ask for God forgiveness. If you want to scold a sinner go right head, but that is not what the confessional is for. It is to find God love and mercy.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Spot on

I am so glad you mentioned confession. I have said I grew up with the Jesuits and I was never afraid to go to confession and I always felt God loved me afterward. We were told to try hard to sin no more, which is all any of us can do. Yet when I got to high school there were girls from other Catholic schoosl who would not go to confession face to face with a priest because of how badly they were scolded after they confessed their sins.

This is not to say the Jesuit did it better. It is to say we must be careful not to drive people away from the Church because they think God could never love them.

what era are you talking? I will be absolutely shocked if its in the last 10 years and if its not its pretty irrelevant to the topic in hand

 

[Fevronia]

No one should be scolded after confessing their sins to a priest, no one. You are their to ask for God forgiveness. If you want to scold a sinner go right head, but that is not what the confessional is for. It is to find God love and mercy.

You misunderstand. My question to you is, when we are scolded for something we did not do, we should be able to take it like the Lord. Our resistance is due to our pride.

So should we foster our pride or want them to afflict that undeserved punishment upon us with the hope of using it as penance for our own sins?

 

[einna]

what era are you talking? I will be absolutely shocked if its in the last 10 years and if its not its pretty irrelevant to the topic in hand

Unfortunately, there was a pastor of our church a few year ago that did this. He spoke badly of anyone who was wealthy, that they were not generous enough with their money if they could live the way they did. He refused to baptize children that came from and unwed mother.

Needless to say he was reassigned fairly quickly because he was in a parish with many people with money who gave a great deal to the church and to the Catholic charities in our city. I do believe, as I think you were implying, that it happens less today than 20 years ago; however, people themselves need to be more Christ like in how they respond to sinners these days.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Unfortunately, there was a pastor of our church a few year ago that did this. He spoke badly of anyone who was wealthy, that they were not generous enough with their money if they could live the way they did

. He refused to baptize children that came from and unwed mother.

Needless to say he was reassigned fairly quickly because he was in a parish with many people with money who gave a great deal to the church and to the Catholic charities in our city. I do believe, as I think you were implying, that it happens less today than 20 years ago; however, people themselves need to be more Christ like in how they respond to sinners these days.

that’s pretty uncharitable. maybe you could start with your own attitude. you seem to have judged the reason the bishop moved the priest
also you seem to have issue with the priest doing what the pope has asked preach on the evils of accumulating money instead of giving to the poor.
I said 10 years not 20

 

[mlund]

“The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all. The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, ‘This is not a sin’ or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds."

Bold emphasis added for my part. It speaks to those who would take the concept of a “faithful fragment” or a “big tent” view of the Catholic Church.

One does not discharge our duty of Compassion by being permissive or dismissive of our fellow sinners.

You know, there’s actually a very apt relationship to be drawn here between attitudes of “tough love” or “social welfare” in modern society as well. Both are typically employed as excuses not to actually deal with the wounds of the individual in need because that’s a time-consuming, messy, and thankless business.

But that’s the cross Christ called you and I to carry - not to feel good about ourselves for giving some homeless fellow our pocket change only to feed the drug addiction that’s killing him or for creating another soulless state-run program with other people’s money and not or to just say “the market will provide” and “I can’t do anything for people who are unwilling to change” in the face of poverty.

Our failure to grasp of the proper compassionate response to physical poverty is a reflection of our failure to grasp the proper compassionate response to our age of spiritual poverty.

“Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person.”

We need to, as a society, accept that Truth - commit it to memory and take it to heart.

• Marty Lund

 

[GaryTaylor]

Unfortunately, there was a pastor of our church a few year ago that did this. He spoke badly of anyone who was wealthy, that they were not generous enough with their money if they could live the way they did. He refused to baptize children that came from and unwed mother.

Needless to say he was reassigned fairly quickly because he was in a parish with many people with money who gave a great deal to the church and to the Catholic charities in our city. I do believe, as I think you were implying, that it happens less today than 20 years ago; however, people themselves need to be more Christ like in how they respond to sinners these days.

Its happens from time to time. No sense in pretending it doesn’t.

I just want forgiveness and to purge my soul. I don’t equate confession with pride but humility. I’ve never been scolded in confession, never yelled at. I have been in there a very long time in conversation at times, mostly listening and learning. Many times with repeat performances. But then that’s what its all about.

Its a constant push forward, sometimes a step backward. But then so is life. I never viewed it as a negative. Its a blessing, as is a state of grace.

The question is if you were yelled at, would you stop going and allow another to deprive you of a state of grace? I couldn’t accept that.

 

[steve_b]

I just read the America interview, and it certainly was not as sensationalistic as the NYT made it out to be, but it was still troubling. I just wonder how much passivity toward moral issues the Pope wants the Church to take.

For me, the following statement from the pope got to the heart of the matter. (emphasis mine)

“I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing."

He is merely recommending the order in which the message is given in the most effective way. He is not discounting or changing any moral imperitives.